Gerrard - will he be played at CM next season ?

[Frogfish]

Even though we came close to resting the title from United last season - probably our best performance for 20 years - there are some people now advocating dropping Gerrard back into a slot likely to be vacated by Xabi moving to Real.

However

1) the problematic LW slot has not yet been filled. Silva would be perfect there (and also be able to play on the right, or cover in the hole should SG be injured, meaning he would start most games) however if Gerrard moves back into Xabi's slot then we are now also short of someone playing off Torres and I doubt that unless we get a proven goal-scorer that anyone feasibly available could fill his boots there. They would not only have to have a good scoring record they would have to provide just as many assists. Yossi is a good squad man but not a permanent solution to the #10 slot.

2) Either way signing Silva would solve one problem, but Xabi leaving and dropping Gerrard back creates another. However if SG stays at #10 then we would have a vacancy in MF that very few would like Lucas to fill. Meaning we are again short of a C.Midfielder.

Personally I believe we have an ideal partnership in Torres & Gerrard and I abhor the thought of breaking it up - as would they I would venture. It isn't as simple as we rely on the SG / FT partnership too much (every team has a prime partnership) so, as some are promoting, dropping SG back into MF would give us e.g. 20 goals for FT, 12 for SG and 12 for Silva. Every team has their prime goalscorers but in total we've hardly been remiss in that dept. for either of the last two seasons.

IMO if Xabi goes we need another CM - not a total re-shuffle of the system that saw us come close to winning the PL and that sees SG move back into CM and then leaves us lacking up front. IF Xabi goes we are going to need Silva + a CM + a back up striker to win the PL next season. And Stevie playing right where we he was last season.

So who for MF ? Who as the back up striker ? And who at LW ? Or would you not be averse to re-shuffling the team and dropping SG back into CM ?

 

[Squiggles]

If Gerrard is moved back to CM, the best bet would be in a 4-4-2 - not playing the holding midfield role as you seem to be suggesting, but further up the field, with Torres being partnered by Kuyt, and Yossi at RW.

If Xabi is determined to force through a transfer, then acquiring Silva + CM - one who adequately replaces Xabi - and a back up striker seems ambitious from a practical point of view, but not impossible.

 

[StevieM]

My take onthe whole situation is pretty much the same as yours.

The position we require one world class performer for is an attacking Lef Midfielder. This player is to be funded by whatever's left in the pot after Johnson 's transfer and by selling off the likes of Babel, Voronin & Dosenna. A spend of around 20m is not unreasonable.

I think we can keep Arbeloa if we want to, as he can give us cover in each FB position, and with Aurelio injured, Insua might need more backup. Arbeloa would start enough games between the two positions to justify keeping him.

If we are looking to add squad players, then a CB, Striker & Attacking RW are possibilities, but we might be able to make better use of some of the youngsters here.

If Alonso or Mascherano are sold, then for me, that money has to go towards funding a direct replacement.

The Gerrrad & Torres partnership has to continue. I don;t think it's realistic to deploy Gerrarde in a deeper role and expect stacks of goals from him without effecting the solidity of the midfield. Mascherano & Alonso function so well there because their focus and skills are not directed towards finishing off moves. Alonso is a much better player operating from a deep role than Gerrard.

Finding a player0 to operate behind Torres and deliver as many goals as Gerrad would be difficult and expensive. I would much prefer to keep Alonso & Mascherano, but if Alonso has to go, then replacing him effectively with someone new is going to be a lot easier and cheaper than replacing Gerrard's role with someone as effective.

WE should stick with the system we have now. We finally have a system that gets the best out of the players we have at the club. Each key member of the team is playing in their best position. If we start f**king around with it now, it'll only end in tears,

 

[Squiggles]

Another thing:

If Torres gets injured - what's peoples thoughts on having Gerrard up top with Yossi playing behind?

Benitez has suggested the idea before.

 

[mark1975]

If he does we're fucked. Slight exaggeration maybe but it would be breaking up the REAL partnership in the team that is the difference between being a challenger and an also ran.

Yeah he's a fantastic player but the facts are it takes away from his game and it takes away from our game.

He's deeper

He's not as disciplined positionally as a CM should be

He's not as close to Torres, limiting their link up play

Rafa tried to incorporate Keane into the side last season, which hampered Gerrard's AND Torres' games, I hope he's learned his lesson.

 

[Squiggles]

Did Keane break up or "hamper" the Torres, Gerrard partnership?

He may have been bought with that intention, but he mostly played on the flanks or deputising up front for an injured Torres. I'm not convinced the three played enough together for it to 'gel'

If for instance Xabi left last year and we funded the Keane deal with his money, we could have lined up:

-------Torres----Keane-----
-----------Gerrard--------
---Riera-----------Kuyt---
----------Masher--------

And I wouldn't bet against it working.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=34485.msg898503#msg898503 date=1246515756]
Did Keane break up or "hamper" the Torres, Gerrard partnership?

He may have been bought with that intention, but he mostly played on the flanks or deputising up front for an injured Torres. I'm not convinced the three played enough together for it to 'gel'

If for instance Xabi left last year and we funded the Keane deal with his money, we could have lined up:

-------Torres----Keane-----
-----------Gerrard--------
---Riera-----------Kuyt---
----------Masher--------

And I wouldn't bet against it working.
[/quote]

I don't know, it always looked a bit congested when he did play, I thought. I think our wide men thrive on the space too and being those extra yards further up the pitch, it's no coincidence Kuyt has gotten better as time has wore on in our current formation.

Regards your formation, that's suggesting Gerrard can play the hole AND cover centre mid, which is nigh on impossible. Maybe it'd work in home games but that's pretty much what we saw at home against Stoke and we know how that went.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=34485.msg898495#msg898495 date=1246515060]
If he does we're fucked. Slight exaggeration maybe but it would be breaking up the REAL partnership in the team that is the difference between being a challenger and an also ran.

Yeah he's a fantastic player but the facts are it takes away from his game and it takes away from our game.

He's deeper

He's not as disciplined positionally as a CM should be

He's not as close to Torres, limiting their link up play

Rafa tried to incorporate Keane into the side last season, which hampered Gerrard's AND Torres' games, I hope he's learned his lesson.
[/quote]

it really surprises me when people suggest moving gerrard, we are far more likely to win games with gerrard as far up the pitch as possible.

 

[Squiggles]

If Xabi did leave - isn't it logical people are considering moving the worlds best CM's back into midfield?

I haven't decided upon which formation is the way to go yet, but it surprises me people are prepared to rule 4-4-2 out but fail to provide a CM replacement for Xabi Alonso.

Our system works so well largely because him.

 

[Squiggles]

Mark - the formation may have been misleading, but I think Gerrard has the capabilities of adapting his game depending upon who we're playing. He's done it time and time again in a 4-4-2 and would be nothing new to him.

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=34485.msg898488#msg898488 date=1246513447]
If Gerrard is moved back to CM, the best bet would be in a 4-4-2 - not playing the holding midfield role as you seem to be suggesting, but further up the field, with Torres being partnered by Kuyt, and Yossi at RW.

If Xabi is determined to force through a transfer, then acquiring Silva + CM - one who adequately replaces Xabi - and a back up striker seems ambitious from a practical point of view, but not impossible.

[/quote]

That is what I'm worried about. IF we get 30M+ for Xabi (and I think this is getting nearer and nearer and will happen) then there is no doubt we can afford Silva and I believe we will get him. But that still leaves us short of a top quality CM - so who is it going to be ? Barry would have been perfect and he may be regretting his move to Citeh, as thinking he would have to compete with Xabi may have helped him in his decision to go to down the M62.

There are plenty of good striker's out there that could do a decent enough job backing up Torres, so that doesn't worry me too much.

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=StevieM link=topic=34485.msg898490#msg898490 date=1246513523]
My take onthe whole situation is pretty much the same as yours.

The position we require one world class performer for is an attacking Lef Midfielder. This player is to be funded by whatever's left in the pot after Johnson 's transfer and by selling off the likes of Babel, Voronin & Dosenna. A spend of around 20m is not unreasonable.

I think we can keep Arbeloa if we want to, as he can give us cover in each FB position, and with Aurelio injured, Insua might need more backup. Arbeloa would start enough games between the two positions to justify keeping him.

If we are looking to add squad players, then a CB, Striker & Attacking RW are possibilities, but we might be able to make better use of some of the youngsters here.

If Alonso or Mascherano are sold, then for me, that money has to go towards funding a direct replacement.

The Gerrrad & Torres partnership has to continue. I don;t think it's realistic to deploy Gerrarde in a deeper role and expect stacks of goals from him without effecting the solidity of the midfield. Mascherano & Alonso function so well there because their focus and skills are not directed towards finishing off moves. Alonso is a much better player operating from a deep role than Gerrard.

Finding a player0 to operate behind Torres and deliver as many goals as Gerrad would be difficult and expensive. I would much prefer to keep Alonso & Mascherano, but if Alonso has to go, then replacing him effectively with someone new is going to be a lot easier and cheaper than replacing Gerrard's role with someone as effective.

WE should stick with the system we have now. We finally have a system that gets the best out of the players we have at the club. Each key member of the team is playing in their best position. If we start f**king around with it now, it'll only end in tears,
[/quote]

Absolutely Steve. Agree with almost every word.

Except there is no stopping Arby's move, and I'm far from convinced that we our youngsters / reserves are good enough to step up to the first team this season. Nemeth maybe but it's taking a huge gamble if we don't buy a back up striker (I'm convinced we will).

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=34485.msg898495#msg898495 date=1246515060]
If he does we're fucked. Slight exaggeration maybe but it would be breaking up the REAL partnership in the team that is the difference between being a challenger and an also ran.

Yeah he's a fantastic player but the facts are it takes away from his game and it takes away from our game.

He's deeper

He's not as disciplined positionally as a CM should be

He's not as close to Torres, limiting their link up play

Rafa tried to incorporate Keane into the side last season, which hampered Gerrard's AND Torres' games, I hope he's learned his lesson.
[/quote]

Is spot on. So Silva, a new CM and a new backup striker it is.

How much would Ashton cost ?

 

[Ryan]

Remember his performance in central midfield at Goodison in the league last season?

My God, it was jaw-droppingly good. We say it all the time, but there are no adequate superlatives to describe how good a footballer he is.

 

[The Slugmonster]

Simple dont sell any1 and buy a left winger.

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=The Slugmonster link=topic=34485.msg899162#msg899162 date=1246584710]
Simple dont sell any1 and buy a left winger.
[/quote]

Is the right answer Slug. However if Real put 30M+ on the table we will take it. We should have tied Xabi to a new contract last year - we didn't and are going to pay the price. Ideally all we needed to do this Summer was add Johnson / Silva or similar / plus a decent backup striker. It's now going to get very complicated.