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Henderson, the forgotten man

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A fair comment... Solid steady eddy was Whelan... though he so would of been slated for that Own Goal against Man Utd on here... A marvellous own goal it was too..

I mean to this day, I have no idea what he was trying to do...


I was at that match; he was clearly trying to pass back to Bruce (which was legal in those days)

Whelan was a classic example of a players player, who added incredible value, but one that many fans did not appreciate until he wasn't there; I think that woudl have been amplified in the internet era
 
I'm a big Hendo fan, but as has been stated repeatedly, one of the qualities that made him such an important player in the two seasons before last was his relentless energy and fitness. That wasn't there last season, and no doubt relatedly, the quality in his chance creating passing was also not evident. If he can get fit, then there isn't a question about him. If he can't replicate the fitness levels of a couple of seasons ago, however, then he's not going to be good enough to play for us.

exactly, 50% of his game is running his balls off
 
Just to add, we held on for the 2-1 win and during the customary 30 minutes of being locked in to the terraces at the end of the match the Liverpool fans sang for Ronnie Whelan non stop.

Also Rush shoudl have broken his duck against Utd in that match in the second half, but on at least two occasions Barnes held onto the ball rather than pass to Rushie as he sought his hat trick
 
I don't often disagree with you, but Henderson is fucking woeful, he wouldn't get near the likes of Arsenal, Chelsea, City, United or Spurs team. Why? Because 98% of his passes are sideways, 1% backwards and 1% over hit crosses. He runs is like a fucking gibbon, and his shot accuracy is awful.

I could go on all day about why he shouldn't be in our first XI and for once I agree with Modo, I wouldn't mind seeing him sold.

Ming
Moreno
Balotelli
Henderson

In that order are the top 4 I want rid of from our current crop - And yes that's ahead of Benteke.

That's ridiculously OTT man. He isn't 'fucking woeful'.
 
He would be a much better player he accepted his limitations. Too much Hollywood and not enough results. He needs to see himself a cog in Klopps system rather than some Gerrard replacement. This may me down to lack of game time and straining to proving himself buy it wasn't working.

He's a very good player but there are question marks over whether he can start enough games to maintain the captaincy. Given how well Milner has done since he arrived and his similarity to Henderson its no real surprise he's become forgotten. Fingers crossed he can recoup his form next year.
 
He's one of the few in our midfield that can play the quick forward pass into space and we really miss that when he's out

I feel like he's maligned as much for his injuries as what he brings to the team but like Sturridge it means it's hard to rely on him

Him and Can also looked together at points last year, so I'd like to see how that works out

If he could shoot more accurately he'd be a great player
 
As has been said, it all rests on whether we're going to end up with pre or post injury Henderson. Pre-injury Henderson has proven that he's good enough to be here. Post-injury... hmmm, not so much.
 
As has been said, it all rests on whether we're going to end up with pre or post injury Henderson. Pre-injury Henderson has proven that he's good enough to be here. Post-injury... hmmm, not so much.

Great, but dismissing him as woeful etc is ridiculous, let's see how he comes back first. People have written him off because of one injury plagued season, others never liked him the first place and are rewriting history.
 
I think that Grujic and Can will be our midfield two sooner rather than later.

I can't see even a fit Henderson in a starting XI. Can will probably play in every league game if fit and that means that it only one midfield place left. I think that Wijnaldum will play many games in central midfield if we sign him.

Henderson could be fourth or maybe even fifth choice in midfield even if he is fit. How many league games would he play this season? Probably not even 50%. Many of our players will struggle to get playing time in the PL this season. Henderson will probably be one of them.
 
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This seems to be the prevailing attitude. Can't believe how fickle the fans are.

That ESPN article is pure bollocks, BTW – the only basis for it is author's observation that "we have too many midfielders."
 
I can understand that Klopp only want players that really want join us this season because he will get a problem to keep everyone happy. How will everyone get enough playing time? Klopp will struggle to give players on the way back from injury playing time.

If Henderson isn't fit then how will Klopp be able to give him playing time in the PL if he need games to be fit? Weaken the starting XI in a few games but later maybe get a stronger XI. Henderson won't be the only player in that position.
 
As has been said, it all rests on whether we're going to end up with pre or post injury Henderson. Pre-injury Henderson has proven that he's good enough to be here. Post-injury... hmmm, not so much.
To be fair to him, we still haven't really seen the post injury Henderson. I'd rather judge him once he really is fully recovered and match fit.
 
To be fair to him, we still haven't really seen the post injury Henderson. I'd rather judge him once he really is fully recovered and match fit.

True.

It's worth us giving him a season to re-establish himself.
 
Definitely. A fit energetic Henderson is just what we need in the middle of the park. If he can't get to where he was before, then he will either have to be happy with a bit part role so that we can manage his injury or he will have to go.
 
I thought the plantar thing had ruptured for good now (for the better)???

Hence we can look forward to Hendo kicking on again?
 
Right, so just to add a bit of perspective to some of the comments here relating to Henderson’s supposed inadequacies:

Firstly, “he wouldn’t get in United, City, Arsenal, etc’s sides”. That’s one of the shittest arguments ever, irrespective of Henderson. Giroud gets in Arsenal’s side as the main point of attack, but he wouldn’t get in ours. Would Rooney play ahead of Coutinho for us? Nope. Would Ivanovic get in at right back before Clyne? Would he fuck. Would Joe Hart get a game ahead of De Gea? Nope, and City have been a better side than United for 3 or 4 years. It’s a futile discussion, and in even contemplating it you’re exposing yourself as someone who evaluates teams on a page, as opposed to what they’re respective teams need, and how they’re constructed, and that players are constructed to compliment the team, rather than the construct of a fucking chalkboard. And it’s the 'importance to the team' point that assures me that Henderson is vital to us and Klopp’s Liverpool, but more on that later.

Secondly, “he offers nothing going forward”. Well depends on what your definition of ‘offer’ is really, but I don’t expect my central midfielder to score 15 goals and provide the same in assists. Not unless he’s Steven Gerrard. I expect my central midfielder to break forward from deep at the right time, to lead the team’s pressing, to create space for others, and to create openings that forwards who nominally are accounted for by an opponent wouldn’t get otherwise. The single best performance I’ve seen from a Liverpool side in the last 5+ years was the destruction of Spurs away in 2013-14. Everyone remembers Suarez’s role (and Jon Flanagan’s goal!), but check out Henderson’s contribution in this video. 1-0, 2-0, 3-0 – all as a direct result of him. Running from deep and carving openings. These aren’t your icing-on-the-cake goals when you’re already 5-zip up and showboating, this was breaking the game open shit. And he initiated it all. Look at those runs, the composure for the first, the timing of his surges forward, and the energy. He did that all year long. “Shit” players don’t do this stuff. Watch the video - the boy can play.



Firmino’s goal against the Mancs in the ¼ final of the Europa last year? Henderson running like a fucking maniac down the wing, overlapping Lallana, and providing the cross for the goal. That was 70 minutes in the second half, and he’s making runs forward that no one could track. He adds an energy to our attacking game that few others have.

And finally, “we have better players”. We might yeah. We had better technical footballers than Dirk Kuyt at the time too. We could have gone and bought a better midfielder than Steve McMahon back when we were the best side in the country as well, and looked like a sexier set-up on paper. But it wouldn’t have improved the team. McMahon was the perfect foil for Ronnie Whelan. I’ve no doubt there are better players than Henderson around, but I can think of few that embody what Klopp’s Liverpool need more than our captain. Let’s get him fully fit and see what his contribution to our side is. Cos Klopp wants pressing – all day every day, and tenacity, energy, and the ability to go forward in numbers. He wants the ball won back, he wants characters, and he wants cunts who hate losing. That's Henderson.

There are three keys to winning the ball back in Klopp’s gegenpressing (I appreciate I sound like a fucking knob typing that word but whatever); 1 – when you first lose it. It’s before the opposition have a set structure, and you can catch them out quickly. 2 – When an opposition player receives the ball in his own half with his back to goal – that’s usually a signal to charge at him. Every cunt’s got to be on the same page mind you. 3 – when an opposing full-back receives it in his own half. You gang up in numbers and hunt because the full-back has only 180 degrees max to move the ball into, as opposed to the 360 anywhere else. Soooo… It takes someone to coordinate that and lead it on the ground. This isn’t how you trap a ball and spray a pass, it’s how you press like no other side can and how you manage a bunch of teammates to win the ball back, leading from the front. Who else would you want in your side owning that shit than Henderson? If he’s not in Klopp’s side just about every week I’ll be stunned. The ball doesn’t just magically appear at Coutinho, Firmino or Sturridge’s feet, it has to be won back for them, and the quicker you do that then the more space and time those match-winners have to do something with it.

Anyway, I’m done. Henderson is no Steven Gerrard. We’re agreed on that. And he’s no Coutinho, or Emre Can either but neither of those two can do what Henderson does. So you add the sum of the parts together, and we’re a better side. Henderson in our side will improve us. I think he’s perfect for Klopp’s Liverpool, and to be clear – even without Klopp, Henderson is a fine Liverpool player and a fantastic captain.

This derision of him is either borne out of stupidity or summer boredom.
 
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Ryan I remember you being heavily critical of Henderson in the past.

Yeah I'm sure I criticised his form at times, and it was probably warranted. But I was one of the few champions of this guy when he first signed, and remember having constant debates with LTW and others about how he was worth persisting with.

He has had some up and down moments, and if my above spiel gave the impression he's untouchable and I've always been 100% behind him, then it wasn't intended. I've just found this recent complete disregard of him by folks rather weird, and thought it merited a spirited response.
 
I've always thought Henderson's leadership skills were vastly overrated just because he was always yelling at somebody whenever the cameras focused on him. Remember that time Balotelli had to forcibly take the penalty off him against Besiktas?

He's a decent player, but I don't know if the "sum-of-parts" argument is really valid anymore. His workrate has always been exaggerated based on the fairly sedentary players who he paired with in the midfield, namely Lucas and Gerrard, while Allen was generally used in a fairly deep.conservative role as well.

Adding an attacker like Mane with great workrate gives us the option to play Firmino/Coutinho as an attacking midfielder, and that type of role could be played by someone like Wijnaldum as well as Lallana. Can provides a good box to box profile afrom a deeper midfield role, and Allen/Milner have roles to play as well.

I think replacing any of those players with Henderson either means we sacrifice attacking ability, or defensive positioning for the sake of workrate. And adding workrate isn't really necessary given just about all of our players bar Lucas provide it for Klopp's pressing system.
 
His workrate has always been exaggerated based on the fairly sedentary players who he paired with in the midfield, namely Lucas and Gerrard, while Allen was generally used in a fairly deep.conservative role as well.

@King Binny, do you have anything to say about that?
 
@King Binny, do you have anything to say about that?

I probably phrased this poorly. The value of his workrate is exaggerated by the amount of opportunities he was given to close down players by playing alongside Gerrard and Lucas in a fairly stagnant midfield. That's going to inflate any statistics we look at.

Playing with our current squad, he's not going to need to cover nearly as much ground, as our other midfielders and attackers will be able to do the pressing.

Basically, there was value to his game with our previous squads as his running compensated for other players not doing so. But now that we have players capable of pressing in every role, he's not nearly as valuable a player, as he won't be asked to do anywhere near as running.

If he's running less, and is less valuable in retaining possession, the attack, and defending, he's certainly the odd man out now.
 
Imagine the stick Ronnie Whelan would have received if the internet was around in the 80s

get a hold of yourself would you. He was a Porsche of a player in comparison to Henderson





And that's a few examples without thinking. Home Farm's fecking finest. Say a word about him, and I'll hunt you down and cut off your nipples.
 
Firstly, if he's surrounded by tremendous talent and skill, I would keep him for his work rate, honesty, and battling.

But he's not. We can argue from here to kingdom come about his pros and cons. Ryan is a prolific debater that could convince me day is night and night is day.

But we all know: unless he's surrounded by some serious talent: having players like himself, Lucas, and Allen as chief protagonists are going to see us remain Mid table marvels. It's just an inescapable fact. I don't need graphs and video clips. We all know this in our heart of hearts.

Love the lad, but it's another case of how we've persisted with mediocrity so many times, hoping, hoping hoping. It's a failing of ours..

He's had 5 seasons - yeah 5 years to make a difference, and there's been one good season (current injury not withstanding). I'd say gegenpressing is his last hope, with us, if any.

Sell if the price is right as he's entering his peak value: too much sentiment here.
 
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A 'Like' for @Ryan for his 'spirited response'.

I don't think many are saying that Henderson, when in form, is not worth his place in the team, clearly he would be an asset with his passing (as I noted earlier in the thread), link play, crossing & FKs and energy.

However that isn't what we are currently witnessing. He's been pretty damn awful (or at best 'very average') since he returned. Yes, of course that's down to his injury and he will need time to overcome it (if that's at all possible) and we should give him that time, but not at the cost of match-time, that will maybe contribute to lost points and games, if we have better options available, and I think we will have better options when the season starts.
 
Firstly, if he's surrounded by tremendous talent and skill, I would keep him for his work rate, honesty, and battling.

But he's not. We can argue from here to kingdom come about his pros and cons. Ryan is a prolific debater that could convince me day is night and night is day.

But we all know: unless he's surrounded by some serious talent: having players like himself, Lucas, and Allen as chief protagonists are going to see us remain Mid table marvels. It's just an inescapable fact. I don't need graphs and video clips. We all know this in our heart of hearts.

Love the lad, but it's another case of how we've persisted with mediocrity so many times, hoping, hoping hoping. It's a failing of ours..

He's had years to make a difference, and there's been one good season (current injury not withstanding).

Sell if the price is right as he's entering his peak value..

I don't really get the logic of the highlighted passage, mate. I think we DO have some serious attacking talent in this team: players like Coutinho who can make a goal out of nothing, Firmino with his great all-around quality, Sturridge, now Mane and possibly Wijnaldum (and who knows, maybe Coric too). None of them have a work-rate anywhere near Henderson's or cover nearly as much ground – only Lallana comes close and he is the least prolific attacker of that group. In midfield, I feel that Can is at his best when allowed to pick his spots to make decisive interventions, as he does – he is not somebody who can (or should be asked to) run non-stop for 90 minutes. Part of it is just physique – there is a reason guys who run marathons look leaner than those who push weights. Can's body is closer to that of a weightlifter, that's why he can push people out of the way, but don't expect him to cover every blade of grass while carrying that frame.

So actually we have a deficit of players like Henderson – Milner and Allen can do it to an extent, but Hendo has more tools in his arsenal (speed and long-range passing to name two). Given how crucial this kind of player is to Klopp's system, this is probably why he sought to bring in Dahoud as a priority, not to replace Henderson outright (from what I've seen of both players Dahoud possibly has a higher ceiling, but he is NOT better than Hendo at the moment), but to compete with and supplement him. Hendo really shouldn't be lumped in with Lucas and Allen – he has more to his game and unlike them, he has one genuinely world-class quality – the ability to run with maximum intensity for all 90 minutes.

Like Ryan, I have absolutely no doubt that Klopp would LOVE a player like Henderson when he's in good form (like he was in 2013-14 and 2014-15 – that's more than "one good season"). It's just bad luck that he was struggling with chronic injury just as Klopp came in, but even then I loved his attitude – you could tell he knew he wasn't anywhere near his best and sometimes he seemed visibly in pain, but instead of feeling sorry for himself he just tried his best to help the team. He is a great kind of character to have in the team and I think fans owe a bit more loyalty to a player who gives nothing but 100% (even when he is feeling 50%) every week. We demand loyalty from them, so let's not discard a player at the first sign of trouble.
 
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get a hold of yourself would you. He was a Porsche of a player in comparison to Henderson





And that's a few examples without thinking. Home Farm's fecking finest. Say a word about him, and I'll hunt you down and cut off your nipples.

Hey dont get me wrong I loved him - though Ive met him a few times in recent years and he's a grumpy sod 🙂

But there were a few folks around me in the Kemlyn, back then, who used to complain he didn't add much, similar to the stick Henderson gets, and if the internet was around I am sure that would have been amplified. I am not comparing him to Henderson, merely observing the Internet amplifies the malcontents
 
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