How do you cope with being the best? (West Brom post-match)

[rurikbird]

Robbo hit the nail on the head there – we've been "slack" in the 2nd half and got deservedly punished. We've seen signs of this before, games after we've won the title when even Van Dijk and Alisson let their concentration slip, getting demolished by Villa after excellent back-to-back wins against Chelsea and Arsenal, poor start vs Fulham after winning the CL group, slack 2nd half after a dominant first today. The pattern is starting to emerge – when this team is high on their own power, when they think they are better then everyone else and have the receipts to prove it, that's when we let the foot off the gas and underperform, which almost always gets punished in this league. This is not a question of tactics, team selection or player quality, this is 100% psychology.

Klopp will need to find a way to teach these players how not only to become the best, but how to cope with the knowledge that you're better than the competition and not let it affect your level of performance. We can look at the likes of Bayern who also sometimes suffer from over-confidence, but have developed a peculiar psychological mechanism to cope with it – setting their own standards in a sub-standard league, chasing history and records and taking each win as something normal and every point lost as an almost catastrophe that needs soul-searching and an immediate response. We can look at Barca at their best who just enjoy their football and treat any opponent as almost a training ground partner. Or we can look at Juve and again Bayern who enjoy being hated by rivals and draw additional motivation from that. Whatever it is, Klopp needs to find a solution, because this has started to become a recurring theme.

 

[MomoWASright]

I said in another thread we are the only team which can stop us winning the league. That second half shit show proved it.

That injury fucked us over. We were never going to make a second change to bring Jones off earlier. Had Matip not been made out of shredded wheat Jones would’ve been pulled off at 60 minutes.

I can see why Oxlade chamberlain came on. He’s smashed in goals from 30 yards and can be willing to run at players.

It was a dope a rope performance from West Brom and they gained more confidence once Matip went off.

As @Woland said, we’re top and still world champs. Win the next two and I think we will extend our lead at the top.

 

[Holle]

Stop doing shite videos driving around town and concentrate on the footy for starters.

 

[Alan Hardaker]

Much as we slagged of fat Sam (and I did more than most) could be said he parked the bus better than the acclaimed strategist Mourinho. He got the draw he came for. Probably because we misfired in the second half but they did well in the second half and did come out of their shell. Last 2 seasons or so we won these games due to our ability to win ugly. Mentality monsters if you like. But in the second half we just didn't look like scoring.

This type of game will obviously happen again and we have to create more to have any chance of retaining the title. City are gaining ground, the others don't look strong enough but City will pass us if we don't get consistency into our game. Today we missed Jota's quick thinking and probably VVD at the back. The bench was short of an impact sub. Can't let that happen again. Newcastle have to be put to the sword and swiftly.

 

[Brizzle]

Think this was a symptom of having no options to rotate and those returning not being fit enough. We’ve managed to stay top despite all of this, snd we are in desperate need of fresh ideas. Can’t wait for Diogo to come back and Shaq to be available to play good minutes.

Time to smash Newcastle.

 

[Markeh]

Maybe a bit too soon after his injury return for criticism but Trent doesn't seem to be offering much going forward yet. That's a big miss in tighter fixtures.

Can't wait to have him back in form and Thiagos passing running teams into the ground

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Don't want to be too critical of Henderson (because he's hardly our biggest problem,) but I will say this: for a little while, his major offensive contribution / weapon has been to push aggressively into the final third, and lob an angled, right-footed curler towards the keeper's back right post, in the hopes that the keeper can be drawn out, fooled by the trajectory of the ball, and left in no-man's land as Mane or Firmino get a head to it.
It's not fucking fooling anyone any more, and it's not working. Stop it. Stop.

 

[refugee]

Don't want to be too critical of Henderson (because he's hardly our biggest problem,) but I will say this: for a little while, his major offensive contribution / weapon has been to push aggressively into the final third, and lob an angled, right-footed curler towards the keeper's back right post, in the hopes that the keeper can be drawn out, fooled by the trajectory of the ball, and left in no-man's land as Mane or Firmino get a head to it.
It's not fucking fooling anyone any more, and it's not working. Stop it. Stop.

That's not new. That's been annoying me for years

 

[RedStar]

Don't want to be too critical of Henderson (because he's hardly our biggest problem,) but I will say this: for a little while, his major offensive contribution / weapon has been to push aggressively into the final third, and lob an angled, right-footed curler towards the keeper's back right post, in the hopes that the keeper can be drawn out, fooled by the trajectory of the ball, and left in no-man's land as Mane or Firmino get a head to it.
It's not fucking fooling anyone any more, and it's not working. Stop it. Stop.

Yeah he was spamming those put agaonst Spurs to zero effect. We looked lethargic and complacent second half. Last season we would have stolen this game at the death, this season aside from the Spurs game we are not finding those last minute winners. As weve seen in previous title challenges, its the draws that kill you, and 5 draws from 15 games is what has stopped us pulling away.

 

[moron]

I don't want to target any specific player for this performance, I thought the whole approach was wrong given we went through a similar exercise against Spurs only two games ago. When facing such a brick wall we really need to up the pace on the passing to really move the opposition around - this slow one side to another side movement does not work. There were plenty of opportunities to run at them to pull them out of position and make a quick pass - but keep the fucking ball moving forwards. What we did was play to the pace that WBA wanted us knowing full well we would have the ball for most of the time. We should of overcrowded their penalty area to create a load of chaos to exhaust them, - it's the only way to beat a bus unless you have creative dribblers that do some magic to break their lines.

Anyway - that said, after tonight I don't think we will win the league. This has now happened three times for us against teams last season we knew we had to beat and win to have any hope of winning the league. This season is turning out to be a different story altogether, we are just not winning those games, it's now six points dropped against Fulham, Brighton, and now WBA. I am ignoring the AV result as that was a freak thing, but really we need to win these games against the lower half of the table.

 

[Buddha]

These are the games Thiago was supposed to unlock with quick incisive passing. Instead we had Hendo facing a brick wall and repetitively going through the same passing patterns.

 

[Mamma Mia]

I don't want to target any specific player for this performance, I thought the whole approach was wrong given we went through a similar exercise against Spurs only two games ago. When facing such a brick wall we really need to up the pace on the passing to really move the opposition around - this slow one side to another side movement does not work. There were plenty of opportunities to run at them to pull them out of position and make a quick pass - but keep the fucking ball moving forwards. What we did was play to the pace that WBA wanted us knowing full well we would have the ball for most of the time. We should of overcrowded their penalty area to create a load of chaos to exhaust them, - it's the only way to beat a bus unless you have creative dribblers that do some magic to break their lines.

Anyway - that said, after tonight I don't think we will win the league. This has now happened three times for us against teams last season we knew we had to beat and win to have any hope of winning the league. This season is turning out to be a different story altogether, we are just not winning those games, it's now six points dropped against Fulham, Brighton, and now WBA. I am ignoring the AV result as that was a freak thing, but really we need to win these games against the lower half of the table.

*have

 

[Frogfish]

Maybe it goes to the subject matter Rurik raised but there was a complete lack of urgency bar the first and last 10 mins. They just strolled through that match.

Even so with Matip on the pitch I doubt Jones' error and the subsequent corner would have made much difference. We were left with Fabinho (heading clearly not his strongest skill - stats say 11th in the squad) and 19 year old Rhys and Fat Sam knew this and played well to it, even throwing on Austin to replace the pacey Grant.

 

[The Nomad]

WBA did a number on us.. went all rope-a-dope in the first half and we didn't take our chances.

Another day it could have been 3-0 at half time and game over.

Second half fat Sam tweaked a couple of pieces notably actually pressing the ball and having at least one man ahead of the ball. Jones was sloppy in giving away possession, but those are the kind of mistakes you can forgive when you are that young. As long as it doesn't become a habit.

 

[gkmacca]

Much as we slagged of fat Sam (and I did more than most) could be said he parked the bus better than the acclaimed strategist Mourinho.

The way people apologise for this shite never fails to amaze and depress me. There's nothing clever about parking the bus. Ask a bus driver. It works at every level, on the odd occasion. Praising it is no better than praising Katie Hopkins because her tiresomely predictable rants get a reaction. Praising it is no better than praising some reality star for turning their pathetic life into a tv show. Anyone can do it if they've no integrity whatsoever. It doesn't merit applause.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Well said @gkmacca - I mean, is that the shit sandwich everyone wants to pay to eat? Fuck no. So I agree - it's a horrible watch and turns off fans / viewers.

But as frustrating and awful as it is, there is an understandable legitimacy / practicality to it if you know that you are an inferior team and that you don't have the ability to get a result any other way. (As you rightly point out, there's nothing clever and there's no applause from me in that statement though.)

If you were in Allardyce's shoes, managing a shit team like West Brom, what would you you have done? Attempted to play expansive, creative football and been beaten 7-0?

He 's not canny enough from a managerial perspective to be able to do it, and to be fair, neither does he have the right tools to execute it either. All-in-all its just a recipe for the shite anti-football that we just witnessed. We knew we were going to get it, so it was up to us to develop a better way of punishing it. As long as he keeps getting results like that he'll just keep thinking that it's positive affirmation of his managerial "skill".

 

[Frogfish]

Agree completely with Sanchez in the post just above. No matter the league you are in (see relegation fodder games vs. Real or Barca or PSG or Bayern or Juve) if you are that inferior you are going to play to a plan to frustrate, defend and hope you can sneak a goal somewhere. WBA did just that. We have absolutely no-one to blame but ourselves and it's utterly pointless having a go at Fat Sam for their tactics.

 

[gkmacca]

Well said @gkmacca - I mean, is that the shit sandwich everyone wants to pay to eat? Fuck no. So I agree - it's a horrible watch and turns off fans / viewers.

But as frustrating and awful as it is, there is an understandable legitimacy / practicality to it if you know that you are an inferior team and that you don't have the ability to get a result any other way. (As you rightly point out, there's nothing clever and there's no applause from me in that statement though.)

If you were in Allardyce's shoes, managing a shit team like West Brom, what would you you have done? Attempted to play expansive, creative football and been beaten 7-0?

He 's not canny enough from a managerial perspective to be able to do it, and to be fair, neither does he have the right tools to execute it either. All-in-all its just a recipe for the shite anti-football that we just witnessed. We knew we were going to get it, so it was up to us to develop a better way of punishing it. As long as he keeps getting results like that he'll just keep thinking that it's positive affirmation of his managerial "skill".

Yeah. But what's always ignored in this context is this: Sammy Lee is his coach, and Sammy Lee has coached at Liverpool and England. It's a stunningly damning evaluation of Lee's abilities that Allardyce prefers to stick with the kind of tactics some shite coach for a pub team would use.

 

[gkmacca]

Agree completely with Sanchez in the post just above. No matter the league you are in (see relegation fodder games vs. Real or Barca or PSG or Bayern or Juve) if you are that inferior you are going to play to a plan to frustrate, defend and hope you can sneak a goal somewhere. WBA did just that. We have absolutely no-one to blame but ourselves and it's utterly pointless having a go at Fat Sam for their tactics.

No, one can agree about your own failures and STILL have a perfect right to 'have a go' at that disgrace for a manager. People had to sit through that shit. If you convince yourself that torture was impressive, you've basically self-flagellated yourself into madness.

 

[Frogfish]

No, one can agree about your own failures and STILL have a perfect right to 'have a go' at that disgrace for a manager. People had to sit through that shit. If you convince yourself that torture was impressive, you've basically self-flagellated yourself into madness.

I haven't seen anyone saying it was impressive - just that it was not only pretty much his only option but that it was entirely foreseeable and that's what virtually all managers of such limited teams do when faced with such a superior team.

 

[rurikbird]

Agree completely with Sanchez in the post just above. No matter the league you are in (see relegation fodder games vs. Real or Barca or PSG or Bayern or Juve) if you are that inferior you are going to play to a plan to frustrate, defend and hope you can sneak a goal somewhere. WBA did just that. We have absolutely no-one to blame but ourselves and it's utterly pointless having a go at Fat Sam for their tactics.

Not so much in Germany or Spain - relegation fodder in these leagues still more often than not try to play football even against the big boys. I’m sure it frustrates Klopp to have to face these kinds of cynical anti-football teams, but he knows it’s something we simply have to overcome.

 

[gkmacca]

Not so much in Germany or Spain - relegation fodder in these leagues still more often than not try to play football even against the big boys. I’m sure it frustrates Klopp to have to face these kinds of cynical anti-football teams, but he knows it’s something we simply have to overcome.

Yes, but we shouldn't make it sound like you can get a vaccine and acquire immunity to it. No team will ever 'overcome' it. The best you can do is to prepare as well as possible for it, work on some tiny tactical tricks, and keep the tempo high - and hope. Barca didn't lose to Chelski in the ECL a few years ago because they didn't have tactical nous - when an opponent plays really deep with two banks of four, nearly every move you start will end up breaking down in the congestion. That's what congestion does. It's not clever, it's crude, but it works because that's what the simple fact of denying space does. And it bores everyone else to tears. If you're the sports teacher at a comprehensive and you don't fancy your own team of 12 year olds against the big boys from nearby, have a go - even the thickoes will know how to do it. But if you're in the Premier League, and you're being paid obscene amounts of money, and you're forever telling people that you're just as imaginative and inventive as 'them foreigners', then sorry, it's not good enough - it's simply a way of cheating a living. There's zero that's impressive about it, and everything about it deserves derision.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Yeah. But what's always ignored in this context is this: Sammy Lee is his coach, and Sammy Lee has coached at Liverpool and England. It's a stunningly damning evaluation of Lee's abilities that Allardyce prefers to stick with the kind of tactics some shite coach for a pub team would use.

Lol yep. Why else would he be coaching anyone but West Brom?

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Yes, but we shouldn't make it sound like you can get a vaccine and acquire immunity to it. No team will ever 'overcome' it. The best you can do is to prepare as well as possible for it, work on some tiny tactical tricks, and keep the tempo high - and hope. Barca didn't lose to Chelski in the ECL a few years ago because they didn't have tactical nous - when an opponent plays really deep with two banks of four, nearly every move you start will end up breaking down in the congestion. That's what congestion does. It's not clever, it's crude, but it works because that's what the simple fact of denying space does. And it bores everyone else to tears. If you're the sports teacher at a comprehensive and you don't fancy your own team of 12 year olds against the big boys from nearby, have a go - even the thickoes will know how to do it. But if you're in the Premier League, and you're being paid obscene amounts of money, and you're forever telling people that you're just as imaginative and inventive as 'them foreigners', then sorry, it's not good enough - it's simply a way of cheating a living. There's zero that's impressive about it, and everything about it deserves derision.

It has been said here before, but perhaps the answer is not to play into the "trap" of the ultra-low block. Relinquish the ball and goad the other team into playing football. Why not attempt to pull them out of their defensive position by not playing a possession game?

 

[MomoWASright]

We could’ve been 1 up then played kick about in our half and they would’ve have moved out of their half.

 

[gkmacca]

It has been said here before, but perhaps the answer is not to play into the "trap" of the ultra-low block. Relinquish the ball and goad the other team into playing football. Why not attempt to pull them out of their defensive position by not playing a possession game?

Because they don't come out. Look, there are lots of ugly ways to play football, and the more stylish teams need to find ways to cope with that and, yes, overcome it - fine. But those teams still play the game of football. That's the point. Just filling up space and frustrating the other team isn't playing football. It's anti-football, it's making the act of playing football barely possible. To react to a mistake by suddenly bombing up the other end and scoring is just briefly reverting to playing the game of football before once again NOT playing football. It's not like Pulis - his teams DO play football, but just in a really ugly way. Allardyce doesn't play football, he specialises in not playing football. It's like bowling under arm at cricket - you're making it really hard for the batsman to hit any shots, not because you're being really clever, but because you're denying the batsman the basic means to play cricket. In football, the only mystery is why so many fans act stunned and bemused when a team denied any space don't play very well.

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

Add to this the fact that Kevin Fiend was about as shite a referee as one could hope for. Just have to move on and thrash Newcastle.

 

[Alan Hardaker]

The way people apologise for this shite never fails to amaze and depress me. There's nothing clever about parking the bus. Ask a bus driver. It works at every level, on the odd occasion. Praising it is no better than praising Katie Hopkins because her tiresomely predictable rants get a reaction. Praising it is no better than praising some reality star for turning their pathetic life into a tv show. Anyone can do it if they've no integrity whatsoever. It doesn't merit applause.

It never ceases to amaze me that people misread posts so much. I didn't say it was clever to park the bus and I definitely did not praise it. Perhaps you should get a clear idea of a post before you go off on some ridiculous point scoring excercise.

 

[Stevesquash]

At the end of the day, Big Sam has been brought in to keep them up.

You'll have to ask to Baggies fans if they are happy with the way he's trying to do it, but he has a good record achieving it. With a squad that one our posters said contained no names he knew, it is the best way to do it.

Bilic got a draw at City and got the sack. Sam gets lauded in the media.

It is however up to us to beat this system. There's a reason why the better footballing teams win the league. If we do our job well, as we were doing, there's really no problem.

We didn't play well. If we did any number of things better we'd have won. And we weren't helped by the ref. That's the bottom line.

 

[Donavan Ried]

Not a real fan of shooting from distance, but with so many defenders back and bodies in the way maybe we would have gotten lucky and scored a deflected goal or it hits a defenders arm/hand and we get a penalty