Is CL a must or...

[keniget]

... is it possible that the club regard it as more of a bonus than anything along the way of a medium to long-term rebuilding process?

We've been impotent in front of goal practically all season and it's cost us time after time after time. It's hard to get any joy from watching Liverpool these days. Joy comes from skill and goals, two things we are in short supply of.

I would've thought that given the very obvious nature of our problems and games coming thick and fast, we'd have tried to do some business in Jan and quickly at that.

It's not happened.

What do you think the plan is in the Liverpool board room?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=48301.msg1464331#msg1464331 date=1326559401]


What do you think the plan is in the Liverpool board room?
[/quote]

To work out how much it'll cost to pay off the remainder of Kenny's contract?

 

[Squiggles]

Blind faith in Andy Carroll.

 

[Judge Jules]

For me that original post is a bit harsh in terms of overall skill (we've played some excellent football at times this season), but it's a question worth asking all the same. I doubt the owners regard a CL place as simply optional given what John Henry's already said about that. Given that, while Moneyball probably militates against making signings in the January window given the particularly poor value for money you often get at this time of year I wouldn't assume just yet that we're not going to make one or two.

 

[keniget]

I can't recall much to admire in terms of skill. That is, unless you're referring to our midfielders passing it between themselves for 90mins every week.

 

[localny]

We could have easily made the CL this year. Really. It's just the very obvious that has stopped it. It's encouraging and infuriating. We're as good as the top teams, but just not that much better than the mediocre teams.

 

[dmishra]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=48301.msg1464342#msg1464342 date=1326559685]
For me that original post is a bit harsh in terms of overall skill (we've played some excellent football at times this season), but it's a question worth asking all the same. I doubt the owners regard a CL place as simply optional given what John Henry's already said about that. Given that, while Moneyball probably militates against making signings in the January window given the particularly poor value for money you often get at this time of year I wouldn't assume just yet that we're not going to make one or two.
[/quote]

I can't agree with the excellent football. Have to agree with keni - I've derived very little joy out of watching us play this season.

As for the latter half of your post, I hope we do because I can't see us finishing 4th unless we add a couple of attacking players of serious quality this window.

 

[Skullflower]

said since near the start that we'd deffo not get cl place. can i now be called a realist rather than a pessimist?

 

[keniget]

I'm also a little tired of hearing about moneyball. There has been little to no evidence about it's rather tenuous theory being practised at Liverpool.

Furthermore, we keep being reminded about it's supposed principles by people who know next to nothing about it (no offence, but I'd argue this applies to 99% of the forum). "Apparently Moneyball means X" - oh really... says the random couple articles about it we all read when we were taken over by FSG and then again when Commolli was appointed.

 

[Hansern]

4th wont happen. We're averaging a goal a game, and dont look like addressing those issues either. We'll finish 6-7th

 

[spider-Neil]

it's cups or bust (boobs!) we aren't going to do anything in the league except frustrate the fans

 

[kingjulian]

Ha...bit of a sour grapes scenario, if we don't try to get into CL.

Kenny is not the problem.

It was our transfer policy. We didn't even attempt to get quality players in because of the "why would they come to us, we are not in the CL mentality". We would be in a different place if we spent the combined figure we spent on Downing and Hendo on one quality player or if we spent the money we spent on Carroll in a wiser way. Of course Kenny is responsible to an extent for these, but this is also directly the remit of Comolli. They must recognize and make the required changes...of course there is no point in coming out to the media and saying "we screwed up"...the response should rather be shown through action.

I hope the next time we get a player, we don't make any compromise on the quality of the player. We must learn from our lessons.

Also, the fight for fourth is still not over, but its increasingly looking unlikely.

 

[Molbystwin]

[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=48301.msg1464342#msg1464342 date=1326559685]
For me that original post is a bit harsh in terms of overall skill (we've played some excellent football at times this season), but it's a question worth asking all the same. I doubt the owners regard a CL place as simply optional given what John Henry's already said about that. Given that, while Moneyball probably militates against making signings in the January window given the particularly poor value for money you often get at this time of year I wouldn't assume just yet that we're not going to make one or two.
[/quote]

Its the poor value of the summer signings we made is the problem not january ones, with all the bad press we've been dragged through and dropping 14 points in draws at home after spending 55M on unconvincing/shite players.... Fuck me Kennys got his work cut out to keep his job.

The stupid and weird thing is however that once again we've been playing some really nice stuff, we've bossed United and City and IMO only played really poorly a handful of times. I don't see us getting CL and I don't think we deserve it either as we have been so utterly toothless.... Everytime we look as though we might push on the same problem resurfaces... no fucking goals.

Clarke has done a great job marshalling the defence and Agger and Skrtel have been a real highlight and could settle into being a great future partnership but the team can't just carry on dropping shitty points at home and exepct to get into the CL. The calibre of players we do have will want that or they will lose faith in it.

We've been unlcuky with injuries and silly/pure mental suspensions, question is if you were FSG its shit or bust time? Screaming out for a striker and we need a good one and we need him NOW if we have any chance whatsoever of getting back up there.

I don't reckon they'll do it and i think it will be a shame, doubly so as kenny, who clearly has the stomach for it will most likely be on his way into retirement while Fergie continues on his our old perch, after so much money I doubt very much a carling cup will suffice.

 

[Hansern]

The thing is you dont need to spend more than 15 mill to get two very good signings.

Hoilett and Sow. We miss creativity and goals. Sorted.

 

[Molbystwin]

Downing and Carroll....

fucking hell Kenny.... WHY just fucking WHY.....

Whens the next time we play a big team in the league?? I might watch that one... can't be arsed with the Stokes and stuff now....

 

[gene hughes]

It's nice that we're not letting in a lot of goals but even if we are able to spend another 50m in the next six months in order to buy goals for the team, I don't trust the management team to use that money properly. The question is, does Mr. Henry?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Oh right, so it's all Comolli's fault.

 

[gene hughes]

Are you asking me?

 

[Buddha]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=48301.msg1464386#msg1464386 date=1326560704]
I'm also a little tired of hearing about moneyball. There has been little to no evidence about it's rather tenuous theory being practised at Liverpool.

Furthermore, we keep being reminded about it's supposed principles by people who know next to nothing about it (no offence, but I'd argue this applies to 99% of the forum). "Apparently Moneyball means X" - oh really... says the random couple articles about it we all read when we were taken over by FSG and then again when Commolli was appointed.
[/quote]

Moneyball went out the window the moment Kenny put his foot down and we paid 35m for Carroll.

 

[Judge Jules]

[quote author=Molbystwin link=topic=48301.msg1464423#msg1464423 date=1326563582]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=48301.msg1464342#msg1464342 date=1326559685]
For me that original post is a bit harsh in terms of overall skill (we've played some excellent football at times this season), but it's a question worth asking all the same. I doubt the owners regard a CL place as simply optional given what John Henry's already said about that. Given that, while Moneyball probably militates against making signings in the January window given the particularly poor value for money you often get at this time of year I wouldn't assume just yet that we're not going to make one or two.
[/quote]

Its the poor value of the summer signings we made is the problem not january ones, with all the bad press we've been dragged through and dropping 14 points in draws at home after spending 55M on unconvincing/shite players.... Fuck me Kennys got his work cut out to keep his job.

The stupid and weird thing is however that once again we've been playing some really nice stuff, we've bossed United and City and IMO only played really poorly a handful of times. I don't see us getting CL and I don't think we deserve it either as we have been so utterly toothless.... Everytime we look as though we might push on the same problem resurfaces... no fucking goals.

Clarke has done a great job marshalling the defence and Agger and Skrtel have been a real highlight and could settle into being a great future partnership but the team can't just carry on dropping shitty points at home and exepct to get into the CL. The calibre of players we do have will want that or they will lose faith in it.

We've been unlcuky with injuries and silly/pure mental suspensions, question is if you were FSG its shit or bust time? Screaming out for a striker and we need a good one and we need him NOW if we have any chance whatsoever of getting back up there.

I don't reckon they'll do it and i think it will be a shame, doubly so as kenny, who clearly has the stomach for it will most likely be on his way into retirement while Fergie continues on his our old perch, after so much money I doubt very much a carling cup will suffice.
[/quote]

Good post. Games like those against the Manchester clubs (there have been others too) are the ones I have in mind. We *have* played some nice stuff in a number of games and it disappoints me that sensible posters like dmish and keni can forget/disregard that so easily.

IMO it's too soon to write off our chances of 4th, especially when you consider that the other teams with whom we're competing for that spot aren't pulling up any trees either. One thing's for sure though - we have to start taking our chances, and sharpish.

 

[RedZeppelin]

If CL football wasn't the aim for the season then what was ? Surely we can't be happy aiming for 5th or 6th . We spent big and so far have had fuck all return on it .

And I don't see anything the club have done this last yr that screams "moneyball" . We've spent fuck loads on players of all ages like we have always done . If we don't buy in January it's because there's nobody they want available or we have spent our budget already . You could be forgiven if FSG question why they need to spend big on more strikers and wingers when they spent 35m on carrol and near 20m on downing on top of 23m on suarez.

 

[Molbystwin]

[quote author=RedZeppelin link=topic=48301.msg1464530#msg1464530 date=1326594455]
If CL football wasn't the aim for the season then what was ? Surely we can't be happy aiming for 5th or 6th . We spent big and so far have had fuck all return on it .

And I don't see anything the club have done this last yr that screams "moneyball" . We've spent fuck loads on players of all ages like we have always done . If we don't buy in January it's because there's nobody they want available or we have spent our budget already . You could be forgiven if FSG question why they need to spend big on more strikers and wingers when they spent 35m on carrol and near 20m on downing on top of 23m on suarez.
[/quote]

FSG will be blameless should we fail to make the top 4, they put plenty of money in it's not their fault that, as of this moment at least, so much of it has been poorly spent. Even in todays market 35M should get you a striker who has ability and scores goals. Sacrificing himself for the team.... deary me.... I'd just settle for being dangerous and scoring goals Kenny tbh.....

Similarly 20M should bring a winger that provides, I take absolutely no pleasure out of being right all summer long about that useless cunt.... and believe me im just the kind to crow about such things.... Stewart Fucking Downing.... what the fuck were they thinking.


The draws we have been producing at home have been nothing short of scandalous.... Swansea, Norwich, Stoke...

Some people in the club need a good wake up slap in the chops.

 

[RolandG]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=48301.msg1464331#msg1464331 date=1326559401]
... is it possible that the club regard it as more of a bonus than anything along the way of a medium to long-term rebuilding process?

We've been impotent in front of goal practically all season and it's cost us time after time after time. It's hard to get any joy from watching Liverpool these days. Joy comes from skill and goals, two things we are in short supply of.

I would've thought that given the very obvious nature of our problems and games coming thick and fast, we'd have tried to do some business in Jan and quickly at that.

It's not happened.

What do you think the plan is in the Liverpool board room?
[/quote]
I think CL football was a realistic target at the beginning of the season and the money spent was on players to get us there. We didn't expect that the big money players would flop so spectacularly. That they have would mean us revising our targets. Winning the Carling Cup would put a gloss on a poor season. While we've improved and can not be considered a 1 man team, we lack the consistency and killer instinct to make the top 4.

 

[PaulGorst]

It's simple really, we play well and match the other teams in the top six (apart from the Spurs game) but then when we play the medicore/bad teams in the division we're limp.
We sort of expect to just turn up and take the points. Doesn't work like that.
But was anyone genuinely surprised with the draw to Stoke? Cause I wasn't.
If we don't get 4th then the teams above us will pull away even further, which would be disasterous.
In Rafa's last season I said if we didn't get 4th then it would mean years of floundering, and apart from being bought out, not much gives me confidence that, that will change anytime soon.

 

[RedStar]

Like most people I dont think we will get 4th, we have left ourselves too much to do and we just dont look capable of going on a run of games and cranking up the pressure on Chelsea/Arsenal, we are far too inconsistent and you just cant see where the goals will come from, even with Suarez back in the team.

On the plus side for Kenny I dont think 4th was a must for this season, next season it certainly will be but not this time around, that said I dont think the owners would have envisaged a 7th place (or such) finish when they backed Kenny with the funds to bring in his players over the last 12 months. If we miss out on European football altogether then I think its not necessarily a foregone conclusion that the job will be his next season.

There is still time to turn it round and put a bit of polish on this turd of a season but if we finish potless in 6th or 7th place then Kenny will need to put forward a very convincing argument as to why he deserves to keep his job. The question the owners have got to come to terms with now is do they back him with another bundle of cash this summer

 

[Asbo]

Where are we going with 'the bundles of cash', the owners HAVEN'T really given any more than we got from not paying the crippling debts we used to have to pay, they have in fact given us to spend 33 Million.

Thats an Average of 11 Million a fucking transfer window (including this one), the rest is from player sales.

 

[keniget]

Where does Comoilli fit into all of this?

I'd love to know how some of the decisions we made came about.

If we are signing players for the long-term with the view that in 2-3 seasons time they'll come good, I suppose it strengthens Kenny's case for staying in the job. Most managers would prefer players that are good "now" so they can get results.