Kuyt
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[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg327218#msg327218 date=1185825101]
There there.
*holds Spidey*
[/quote]
*sniff*
the american's promised snoggy doggy!!
There there.
*holds Spidey*
[/quote]
*sniff*
the american's promised snoggy doggy!!
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg327191#msg327191 date=1185823420]
>>Del.
They're his top 10 from Holland - I think they prove that he needs a lot of space. There's some clumsy goals in there - and there shouldn't be any in the top 10 of a player that has scored so many.
[/quote]
I'm sorry Robin but this is extraordinarily poor research (or deliberately badly packaged research to support your a priori impression of Dirk Kuyt). You base the idea that these are the best 10 goals Dirk scored on the basis of what?
The probably arbitrary collections of some interweb-nerd amassed into a compilation that you accept unproblematically as Kuyt's best? It puts a completely different slant on things if you note these are his (apparently) top 10 from the 2005-2006 season, not his entire career for Feyenoord, never mind his top goals "from Holland" as you suggest. Check out every one of his 70 odd goals in 100-or-so games for Feyenoord and get back to me. Disappointed in you TBH. Shoddy stuff.
MUST DO BETTER.
>>Del.
They're his top 10 from Holland - I think they prove that he needs a lot of space. There's some clumsy goals in there - and there shouldn't be any in the top 10 of a player that has scored so many.
[/quote]
I'm sorry Robin but this is extraordinarily poor research (or deliberately badly packaged research to support your a priori impression of Dirk Kuyt). You base the idea that these are the best 10 goals Dirk scored on the basis of what?
The probably arbitrary collections of some interweb-nerd amassed into a compilation that you accept unproblematically as Kuyt's best? It puts a completely different slant on things if you note these are his (apparently) top 10 from the 2005-2006 season, not his entire career for Feyenoord, never mind his top goals "from Holland" as you suggest. Check out every one of his 70 odd goals in 100-or-so games for Feyenoord and get back to me. Disappointed in you TBH. Shoddy stuff.
MUST DO BETTER.
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=14248.msg327231#msg327231 date=1185825622]MUST DO BETTER.
[/quote]
1) Del produced that Kuyt video earlier
2) I am aware that it isn't the be-all-and-end-all of his goals
3) Are you really suggesting that there isn't a massive difference between Kuyt's finishing quality and that of the players I've produced videos for?
[/quote]
1) Del produced that Kuyt video earlier
2) I am aware that it isn't the be-all-and-end-all of his goals
3) Are you really suggesting that there isn't a massive difference between Kuyt's finishing quality and that of the players I've produced videos for?
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg327235#msg327235 date=1185825816]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=14248.msg327231#msg327231 date=1185825622]MUST DO BETTER.
[/quote]
1) Del produced that Kuyt video earlier
2) I am aware that it isn't the be-all-and-end-all of his goals
3) Are you really suggesting that there isn't a massive difference between Kuyt's finishing quality and that of the players I've produced videos for?
[/quote]
You said those are his BEST GOALS FROM HOLLAND.
Can you please verify for the benefit of the entire forum that said statement is in fact not true?
That, in fact, his top 10 goals would not include clumsy goals, and your post was absolutely misleading?
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=14248.msg327231#msg327231 date=1185825622]MUST DO BETTER.
[/quote]
1) Del produced that Kuyt video earlier
2) I am aware that it isn't the be-all-and-end-all of his goals
3) Are you really suggesting that there isn't a massive difference between Kuyt's finishing quality and that of the players I've produced videos for?
[/quote]
You said those are his BEST GOALS FROM HOLLAND.
Can you please verify for the benefit of the entire forum that said statement is in fact not true?
That, in fact, his top 10 goals would not include clumsy goals, and your post was absolutely misleading?
Sure, maybe that statement was somewhat misleading, if you want to be pedantic about it.
However, it's clear as day that there's a gulf in quality between these players and Kuyt. You don't have to watch every goal by each of the players to be able to tell that, and to suggest so is utter nonsense.
However, it's clear as day that there's a gulf in quality between these players and Kuyt. You don't have to watch every goal by each of the players to be able to tell that, and to suggest so is utter nonsense.
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg327243#msg327243 date=1185826243]
Sure, maybe that statement was somewhat misleading, if you want to be pedantic about it.
However, it's clear as day that there's a gulf in quality between these players and Kuyt. You don't have to watch every goal by each of the players to be able to tell that, and to suggest so is utter nonsense.
[/quote]
I don't think it is pedantic in the slightest to point out that your collection of Kuyt's very best goals was absolutely nothing of the sort, and therefore not an accurate reflection of his finishing ability. It was not 'somewhat misleading' it was a complete misrepresentation, including the suggestion that the clumsy goals were amongst Dirk's finest footballing moments. So on the basis of the evidence you've provided in the 'case for Dirk', then it is simply not possible to make a fair comparison.
Sure, maybe that statement was somewhat misleading, if you want to be pedantic about it.
However, it's clear as day that there's a gulf in quality between these players and Kuyt. You don't have to watch every goal by each of the players to be able to tell that, and to suggest so is utter nonsense.
[/quote]
I don't think it is pedantic in the slightest to point out that your collection of Kuyt's very best goals was absolutely nothing of the sort, and therefore not an accurate reflection of his finishing ability. It was not 'somewhat misleading' it was a complete misrepresentation, including the suggestion that the clumsy goals were amongst Dirk's finest footballing moments. So on the basis of the evidence you've provided in the 'case for Dirk', then it is simply not possible to make a fair comparison.
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=14248.msg327253#msg327253 date=1185826701]
I don't think it is pedantic in the slightest to point out that your collection of Kuyt's very best goals was absolutely nothing of the sort, and therefore not an accurate reflection of his finishing ability. It was not 'somewhat misleading' it was a complete misrepresentation, including the suggestion that the clumsy goals were amongst Dirk's finest footballing moments. So on the basis of the evidence you've provided in the 'case for Dirk', then this is simply not possible to make a fair comparison.[/quote]
I have clearly stated that these videos are not the final word on these players, and I accept that affirming that these were his best 10 goals from Holland was incorrect.
HOWEVER, the best Kuyt goals video on the internet will not make him look as good as these other players.
Do you agree with me or not? Or are you merely going to carry on harrassing me over this single erroneous comment that has scant relevance to the actual discussion in hand?
Oh, and it was DEL's collection of goals, not mine.
I don't think it is pedantic in the slightest to point out that your collection of Kuyt's very best goals was absolutely nothing of the sort, and therefore not an accurate reflection of his finishing ability. It was not 'somewhat misleading' it was a complete misrepresentation, including the suggestion that the clumsy goals were amongst Dirk's finest footballing moments. So on the basis of the evidence you've provided in the 'case for Dirk', then this is simply not possible to make a fair comparison.[/quote]
I have clearly stated that these videos are not the final word on these players, and I accept that affirming that these were his best 10 goals from Holland was incorrect.
HOWEVER, the best Kuyt goals video on the internet will not make him look as good as these other players.
Do you agree with me or not? Or are you merely going to carry on harrassing me over this single erroneous comment that has scant relevance to the actual discussion in hand?
Oh, and it was DEL's collection of goals, not mine.
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg327258#msg327258 date=1185827124]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=14248.msg327253#msg327253 date=1185826701]
I don't think it is pedantic in the slightest to point out that your collection of Kuyt's very best goals was absolutely nothing of the sort, and therefore not an accurate reflection of his finishing ability. It was not 'somewhat misleading' it was a complete misrepresentation, including the suggestion that the clumsy goals were amongst Dirk's finest footballing moments. So on the basis of the evidence you've provided in the 'case for Dirk', then this is simply not possible to make a fair comparison.[/quote]
I have clearly stated that these videos are not the final word on these players, and I accept that affirming that these were his best 10 goals from Holland was incorrect.
HOWEVER, the best Kuyt goals video on the internet will not make him look as good as these other players.
Do you agree with me or not? Or are you merely going to carry on harrassing me over this single erroneous comment that has scant relevance to the actual discussion in hand?
Oh, and it was DEL's collection of goals, not mine.
[/quote]
Shit man, I didn't mean to harass you! Just a bit of debate, and being a poster I rate highly (and that is generally rated highly) I feel particularly inclined to take issue. I'm confident that you would return the favour if I did likewise.
I just didn't like your methodology so to speak, which I, nevertheless, DO think is relevant to the discussion in hand if we are to engage in a trial by youtube with evidence that leaves a lot to be desired.
Look, these are my thoughts on the matter. I think that we have not seen the best of Kuyt, and I really don't know yet if he will cut it with us. I do think that his performances, particularly in the first half of the season showed his potential to be a great striker this year. O.K., he missed a hatful of chances against Portsmouth, but I was encouraged that he got in positions to miss those chances. Whatever you say, his record in Holland proves that if he gets into goal scoring positions he does know how to put the ball in the net.
At the weekend another striker spurned 2 or 3 proper sitters (which Kuyt's misses were patently not). His name is Thierry Henry. I'm sure the Barca management were happy enough that he was reading passes and combining with other players well enough to have the chances. I feel the same way about Kuyt, and I just rate him overall, yes, for his industry, his attitude, his evident love for the game and his being a perfect expample of someone playing to a team ethos.
You may be right that those players are better finishers than Dirk (although I refuse to accept it on that evidence), but thats not to say they would necessarily fit in, play to other player's strengths and work out as a LFC player. If Kuyt gets a bit of confidence in front of goal this season who knows? I'm not sure any player comes with a guarantee, and I'm happy to take my chances with Dirk this season. Rub it in my face if it doesn't happen.
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=14248.msg327253#msg327253 date=1185826701]
I don't think it is pedantic in the slightest to point out that your collection of Kuyt's very best goals was absolutely nothing of the sort, and therefore not an accurate reflection of his finishing ability. It was not 'somewhat misleading' it was a complete misrepresentation, including the suggestion that the clumsy goals were amongst Dirk's finest footballing moments. So on the basis of the evidence you've provided in the 'case for Dirk', then this is simply not possible to make a fair comparison.[/quote]
I have clearly stated that these videos are not the final word on these players, and I accept that affirming that these were his best 10 goals from Holland was incorrect.
HOWEVER, the best Kuyt goals video on the internet will not make him look as good as these other players.
Do you agree with me or not? Or are you merely going to carry on harrassing me over this single erroneous comment that has scant relevance to the actual discussion in hand?
Oh, and it was DEL's collection of goals, not mine.
[/quote]
Shit man, I didn't mean to harass you! Just a bit of debate, and being a poster I rate highly (and that is generally rated highly) I feel particularly inclined to take issue. I'm confident that you would return the favour if I did likewise.
I just didn't like your methodology so to speak, which I, nevertheless, DO think is relevant to the discussion in hand if we are to engage in a trial by youtube with evidence that leaves a lot to be desired.
Look, these are my thoughts on the matter. I think that we have not seen the best of Kuyt, and I really don't know yet if he will cut it with us. I do think that his performances, particularly in the first half of the season showed his potential to be a great striker this year. O.K., he missed a hatful of chances against Portsmouth, but I was encouraged that he got in positions to miss those chances. Whatever you say, his record in Holland proves that if he gets into goal scoring positions he does know how to put the ball in the net.
At the weekend another striker spurned 2 or 3 proper sitters (which Kuyt's misses were patently not). His name is Thierry Henry. I'm sure the Barca management were happy enough that he was reading passes and combining with other players well enough to have the chances. I feel the same way about Kuyt, and I just rate him overall, yes, for his industry, his attitude, his evident love for the game and his being a perfect expample of someone playing to a team ethos.
You may be right that those players are better finishers than Dirk (although I refuse to accept it on that evidence), but thats not to say they would necessarily fit in, play to other player's strengths and work out as a LFC player. If Kuyt gets a bit of confidence in front of goal this season who knows? I'm not sure any player comes with a guarantee, and I'm happy to take my chances with Dirk this season. Rub it in my face if it doesn't happen.
I'm not here to rub things in people's faces, but nor am I here to provide rigorous academic argument to back up my opinions. I made a, frankly rare, error when supporting my opinion - taking the video that Del provided at face value - and you seemed determined to focus on this rather than engage with my argument as a whole.
I accept that my comment was misguided, but although I accept that it was unfair to label that video the way I did, I stand behind my opinion, which I have explained several times in the thread already:
I believe Kuyt is a good player and a hard worker. However, because of our rigid style of play, we rely on him too much to score goals.
Because our players are static, it's rare that anyone other than the strikers - often only the out-and-out striker gets chances - have opportunities to put the ball in the back of the net.
What this means, is that in order to score enough goals to win the league we have to rely on our strikers to score at least 30 goals between them in the league.
I believe those videos, whilst not being the whole story regarding any given player, ought to make it clear that there is a gulf in talent between those world class strikers capable of that sort of return, and Dirk Kuyt.
I like him, but we need better.
I accept that my comment was misguided, but although I accept that it was unfair to label that video the way I did, I stand behind my opinion, which I have explained several times in the thread already:
I believe Kuyt is a good player and a hard worker. However, because of our rigid style of play, we rely on him too much to score goals.
Because our players are static, it's rare that anyone other than the strikers - often only the out-and-out striker gets chances - have opportunities to put the ball in the back of the net.
What this means, is that in order to score enough goals to win the league we have to rely on our strikers to score at least 30 goals between them in the league.
I believe those videos, whilst not being the whole story regarding any given player, ought to make it clear that there is a gulf in talent between those world class strikers capable of that sort of return, and Dirk Kuyt.
I like him, but we need better.
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg327280#msg327280 date=1185829341]
I'm not here to rub things in people's faces, but nor am I here to provide rigorous academic argument to back up my opinions. I made a, frankly rare, error when supporting my opinion - taking the video that Del provided at face value - and you seemed determined to focus on this rather than engage with my argument as a whole.
I accept that my comment was misguided, but although I accept that it was unfair to label that video the way I did, I stand behind my opinion, which I have explained several times in the thread already:
I believe Kuyt is a good player and a hard worker. However, because of our rigid style of play, we rely on him too much to score goals.
Because our players are static, it's rare that anyone other than the strikers - often only the out-and-out striker gets chances - have opportunities to put the ball in the back of the net.
What this means, is that in order to score enough goals to win the league we have to rely on our strikers to score at least 30 goals between them in the league.
I believe those videos, whilst not being the whole story regarding any given player, ought to make it clear that there is a gulf in talent between those world class strikers capable of that sort of return, and Dirk Kuyt.
I like him, but we need better.
[/quote]
I'm ignoring the last comment, (as I have previously made clear) I don't accept them as evidence, particularly in relation to Dirk Kuyt's ability. And I'm not going back to the first point, as I think we've sorted that already.
I do think Kuyt has demonstrated his ability to contribute his share in a 30 goal partnership- he scored 12 league goals last season when he admittedly went off the boil for a period, but he's clearly got the potential to contribute more than that this season.
Your key point I absolutely agree with, that we need more players breaking from midfield into goal-scoring positions to take the pressure off the strikers (if we don't have the 20-a-season wonder striker you believe exists in your youtube selection of better strikers than Kuyt). The fact is that the team that won the league for the past few seasons has not had a 20-a-season striker. I think that Rafa has indicated his desire to take more risks in terms of overall attacking play, and I hope it is true. I honestly think that a slight change in philosophy might pay more dividends than swapping Kuyt for A.N. Other.
I'm not here to rub things in people's faces, but nor am I here to provide rigorous academic argument to back up my opinions. I made a, frankly rare, error when supporting my opinion - taking the video that Del provided at face value - and you seemed determined to focus on this rather than engage with my argument as a whole.
I accept that my comment was misguided, but although I accept that it was unfair to label that video the way I did, I stand behind my opinion, which I have explained several times in the thread already:
I believe Kuyt is a good player and a hard worker. However, because of our rigid style of play, we rely on him too much to score goals.
Because our players are static, it's rare that anyone other than the strikers - often only the out-and-out striker gets chances - have opportunities to put the ball in the back of the net.
What this means, is that in order to score enough goals to win the league we have to rely on our strikers to score at least 30 goals between them in the league.
I believe those videos, whilst not being the whole story regarding any given player, ought to make it clear that there is a gulf in talent between those world class strikers capable of that sort of return, and Dirk Kuyt.
I like him, but we need better.
[/quote]
I'm ignoring the last comment, (as I have previously made clear) I don't accept them as evidence, particularly in relation to Dirk Kuyt's ability. And I'm not going back to the first point, as I think we've sorted that already.
I do think Kuyt has demonstrated his ability to contribute his share in a 30 goal partnership- he scored 12 league goals last season when he admittedly went off the boil for a period, but he's clearly got the potential to contribute more than that this season.
Your key point I absolutely agree with, that we need more players breaking from midfield into goal-scoring positions to take the pressure off the strikers (if we don't have the 20-a-season wonder striker you believe exists in your youtube selection of better strikers than Kuyt). The fact is that the team that won the league for the past few seasons has not had a 20-a-season striker. I think that Rafa has indicated his desire to take more risks in terms of overall attacking play, and I hope it is true. I honestly think that a slight change in philosophy might pay more dividends than swapping Kuyt for A.N. Other.
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg327243#msg327243 date=1185826243]
Sure, maybe that statement was somewhat misleading, if you want to be pedantic about it.
However, it's clear as day that there's a gulf in quality between these players and Kuyt. You don't have to watch every goal by each of the players to be able to tell that, and to suggest so is utter nonsense.
[/quote]
I think we're getting a bit hung up on the youtube compilations here. I merely posted a couple for the sake of it rather than as a genuine feature of my argument. I have never claimed that Kuyt is a better finisher than the players you've mentioned (although Huntelaar, good as he is, is also unproven in a decent league). What I claimed was that Kuyt can strike the ball well, and I stand by that. He didn't bundle 70 odd goals in for Feyenoord, that's for sure.
Will he drag us kicking and screaming to number 19? No, I don't think he will. Could he be one half of an excellent striking partnership? Well, I think he could and as far as I'm concerned, he should be starting with Torres against Villa.
What your post does illustrate quite well is that we don't have a world class goal scorer to boast and that isn't going to change for what looks like another year. So, what remains for us is to make the best of what we have. Which is where I think your frustration with Kuyt's end product last season (and indeed your frustration with our failure to bring in a bona fide goal scorer) is clouding your judgement. The fact of the matter is, he was our leading scorer in the league last season. We haven't signed anyone who's past form suggests that they could do better and pinning your hopes on the idea that Babel will suddenly embrace this new opportunity and transform into a seasoned Premiership performer is wishful thinking at best. I wish him all the best, obviously, but his goal scoring record at senior level is relatively poor. From what I've seen of him, he's got some serious developing to do before he fulfills his undoubted promise, particularly at this level. Besides, throwing him at the deep end could be detrimental to such development. The last thing we want to do is rob him of that youthful confidence. I'd like to see him broken in on the left wing (or as part of a three-pronged attack) where the responsibility to score goals wouldn't weigh so heavily on him.
Quite simply, I think the player most likely to forge a partnership with Torres is Kuyt. He has the intelligence and (IMO, obviously) the ability to make it work. Whether you think he's good enough to take us forward here is not really the issue. The issue is whether he is the best option we have available currently and I think it's pretty clear that he is. Moreover, the fact remains that last season was his first in this league. History has shown that adapting can often take longer so I think our £10m investment still warrants a further year of persistence. Regardless of whether you think he will make it, surely he deserves the opportunity to see if he can?
Sure, maybe that statement was somewhat misleading, if you want to be pedantic about it.
However, it's clear as day that there's a gulf in quality between these players and Kuyt. You don't have to watch every goal by each of the players to be able to tell that, and to suggest so is utter nonsense.
[/quote]
I think we're getting a bit hung up on the youtube compilations here. I merely posted a couple for the sake of it rather than as a genuine feature of my argument. I have never claimed that Kuyt is a better finisher than the players you've mentioned (although Huntelaar, good as he is, is also unproven in a decent league). What I claimed was that Kuyt can strike the ball well, and I stand by that. He didn't bundle 70 odd goals in for Feyenoord, that's for sure.
Will he drag us kicking and screaming to number 19? No, I don't think he will. Could he be one half of an excellent striking partnership? Well, I think he could and as far as I'm concerned, he should be starting with Torres against Villa.
What your post does illustrate quite well is that we don't have a world class goal scorer to boast and that isn't going to change for what looks like another year. So, what remains for us is to make the best of what we have. Which is where I think your frustration with Kuyt's end product last season (and indeed your frustration with our failure to bring in a bona fide goal scorer) is clouding your judgement. The fact of the matter is, he was our leading scorer in the league last season. We haven't signed anyone who's past form suggests that they could do better and pinning your hopes on the idea that Babel will suddenly embrace this new opportunity and transform into a seasoned Premiership performer is wishful thinking at best. I wish him all the best, obviously, but his goal scoring record at senior level is relatively poor. From what I've seen of him, he's got some serious developing to do before he fulfills his undoubted promise, particularly at this level. Besides, throwing him at the deep end could be detrimental to such development. The last thing we want to do is rob him of that youthful confidence. I'd like to see him broken in on the left wing (or as part of a three-pronged attack) where the responsibility to score goals wouldn't weigh so heavily on him.
Quite simply, I think the player most likely to forge a partnership with Torres is Kuyt. He has the intelligence and (IMO, obviously) the ability to make it work. Whether you think he's good enough to take us forward here is not really the issue. The issue is whether he is the best option we have available currently and I think it's pretty clear that he is. Moreover, the fact remains that last season was his first in this league. History has shown that adapting can often take longer so I think our £10m investment still warrants a further year of persistence. Regardless of whether you think he will make it, surely he deserves the opportunity to see if he can?
I was unimpressed with Babel last week, not in terms of ability, because you can see it's lurking in there, but more the fact that he looks far from ready for the first team, and in the Premiership it'll only be even harder for him. I do think he has was it takes though in terms of raw attributes, but he seemed at times to be reluctant to a) take players on, and b) retain the ball.
It's alot of money for an inexperienced kid. I do worry that Rafa has got this wrong again. We've brought in a player who will provide the option of linking the midfield to attack, not in a first teamer/week in week out sense, but in an 'option' sense (Yossi). And then we've got Babel, a young player who's got some degree of promise, but comes with a relatively poor record from a lesser league.
We really needed a TOP TOP quality wide player this Summer, one that was ready to go straight into the first team and make a difference. I'm more than skeptical as to whether we've achieved that with these two signings.
It's alot of money for an inexperienced kid. I do worry that Rafa has got this wrong again. We've brought in a player who will provide the option of linking the midfield to attack, not in a first teamer/week in week out sense, but in an 'option' sense (Yossi). And then we've got Babel, a young player who's got some degree of promise, but comes with a relatively poor record from a lesser league.
We really needed a TOP TOP quality wide player this Summer, one that was ready to go straight into the first team and make a difference. I'm more than skeptical as to whether we've achieved that with these two signings.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg327301#msg327301 date=1185832069]
Quite simply, I think the player most likely to forge a partnership with Torres is Kuyt. He has the intelligence and (IMO, obviously) the ability to make it work. Whether you think he's good enough to take us forward here is not really the issue. The issue is whether he is the best option we have available currently and I think it's pretty clear that he is.
[/quote]
I think it depends on where Torres will end up playing. If he plays second striker or "in the hole", than Crouch IMO would make a better partner because Crouch is simply a better inside the box striker than Kuyt. If Torres, on the other hand, plays up front, than Kuyt is clearly the best option we have to support him as a second striker.
Quite simply, I think the player most likely to forge a partnership with Torres is Kuyt. He has the intelligence and (IMO, obviously) the ability to make it work. Whether you think he's good enough to take us forward here is not really the issue. The issue is whether he is the best option we have available currently and I think it's pretty clear that he is.
[/quote]
I think it depends on where Torres will end up playing. If he plays second striker or "in the hole", than Crouch IMO would make a better partner because Crouch is simply a better inside the box striker than Kuyt. If Torres, on the other hand, plays up front, than Kuyt is clearly the best option we have to support him as a second striker.
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg327280#msg327280 date=1185829341]
I believe those videos, whilst not being the whole story regarding any given player, ought to make it clear that there is a gulf in talent between those world class strikers capable of that sort of return, and Dirk Kuyt.
[/quote]
Talent comes in different shapes. There is physical talent, technical talent, mental talent and so on. Obviously Dirk's touch and feel of the ball is not on par with RvN or Henry and people who think simply moving him to more advanced position will somehow magically make him into a deadly finisher like RvN are clearly misguided. However, not all great strikers are as slick as Henry.
Case in point: Didier Drogba. He is similar to Dirk in that he doesn't strike the ball cleanly all the time and he's never been a clinical finisher. I never expected him to have a season like last season, but somehow he did and he was clearly one of the very best strikers in the world. And he did it not by cascades of technical tricks (although he does have a few), but by overpowering physical ability, exceptional attitude and confidence and not least thanks to a manager who built Chelsea's whole game around him.
I think Dirk and Drogba are a fair comparison. Drogba has a clear advantage in that he is faster and stronger, but Kuyt might be a bit smarter and more creative. If one day he will feel that confidence and go on a Drogba-like tear where even mis-hit balls end up in the net, he could be very very effective. But that requires that he is played to his strengths and not made into something he's not.
I believe those videos, whilst not being the whole story regarding any given player, ought to make it clear that there is a gulf in talent between those world class strikers capable of that sort of return, and Dirk Kuyt.
[/quote]
Talent comes in different shapes. There is physical talent, technical talent, mental talent and so on. Obviously Dirk's touch and feel of the ball is not on par with RvN or Henry and people who think simply moving him to more advanced position will somehow magically make him into a deadly finisher like RvN are clearly misguided. However, not all great strikers are as slick as Henry.
Case in point: Didier Drogba. He is similar to Dirk in that he doesn't strike the ball cleanly all the time and he's never been a clinical finisher. I never expected him to have a season like last season, but somehow he did and he was clearly one of the very best strikers in the world. And he did it not by cascades of technical tricks (although he does have a few), but by overpowering physical ability, exceptional attitude and confidence and not least thanks to a manager who built Chelsea's whole game around him.
I think Dirk and Drogba are a fair comparison. Drogba has a clear advantage in that he is faster and stronger, but Kuyt might be a bit smarter and more creative. If one day he will feel that confidence and go on a Drogba-like tear where even mis-hit balls end up in the net, he could be very very effective. But that requires that he is played to his strengths and not made into something he's not.
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Squiggles
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I think it's far too soon to write him off just yet. Kuyt has done well, despite a mixed season he did show glimpses that he can be a natural finisher in the Premiership. I, like Mark, feel disappointed and slightly let down by his contribution to last season. I thought he was going to be our poacher, our goal scorer, the one who would slam the ball in through a crowd of players. It hasn't happened.
Benitez has deployed Kuyt as a worker, a target man and someone to link in team mates. He has basically he's using him as another Crouch and we're suffering for it. He needs to be playing higher up the pitch, doing nothing other than hunting for goals. He needs the ball played to his feet in the box. Yes, he must start finding the net more often but these changes simply must take place if we are to how good Kuyt really can be. I'm optimistic and I think Kuyt is a better player than Peter Crouch and should partner Torres upfront. Rotation will get us nowhere, partnerships and understanding needs to be gained and I don't care what training methods Rafa has planned, they need pitch time together.
I don't expect all these variables to go Kuyts way, but now is his chance to show England and Europe alike how good he is.
Benitez has deployed Kuyt as a worker, a target man and someone to link in team mates. He has basically he's using him as another Crouch and we're suffering for it. He needs to be playing higher up the pitch, doing nothing other than hunting for goals. He needs the ball played to his feet in the box. Yes, he must start finding the net more often but these changes simply must take place if we are to how good Kuyt really can be. I'm optimistic and I think Kuyt is a better player than Peter Crouch and should partner Torres upfront. Rotation will get us nowhere, partnerships and understanding needs to be gained and I don't care what training methods Rafa has planned, they need pitch time together.
I don't expect all these variables to go Kuyts way, but now is his chance to show England and Europe alike how good he is.
[quote author=rurikbird link=topic=14248.msg327307#msg327307 date=1185832835]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg327301#msg327301 date=1185832069]
Quite simply, I think the player most likely to forge a partnership with Torres is Kuyt. He has the intelligence and (IMO, obviously) the ability to make it work. Whether you think he's good enough to take us forward here is not really the issue. The issue is whether he is the best option we have available currently and I think it's pretty clear that he is.
[/quote]
I think it depends on where Torres will end up playing. If he plays second striker or "in the hole", than Crouch IMO would make a better partner because Crouch is simply a better inside the box striker than Kuyt. If Torres, on the other hand, plays up front, than Kuyt is clearly the best option we have to support him as a second striker.
[/quote]
Sorry mate but I think you've got that the wrong way around. Kuyt needs to play higher up the pitch to get the best out of him. That's what he did for Feyenoord. What's more, having Kuyt deep exploits his lack of pace making it very difficult for him to overlap and join the attack when necessary (as illustrated by his relative absence in the penalty area last season). The same isn't true of Torres. Not only can he link the play but he has the pace to burst through from deep. IMO, he's never looked truly comfortable as a 'first' striker for Atletico. He looks almost stranded at the top of the pitch. Such is his technical ability I think we'd benefit if he was more involved in the build up play.
As far as I'm concerned this system would play to each players strengths; yours would not.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg327301#msg327301 date=1185832069]
Quite simply, I think the player most likely to forge a partnership with Torres is Kuyt. He has the intelligence and (IMO, obviously) the ability to make it work. Whether you think he's good enough to take us forward here is not really the issue. The issue is whether he is the best option we have available currently and I think it's pretty clear that he is.
[/quote]
I think it depends on where Torres will end up playing. If he plays second striker or "in the hole", than Crouch IMO would make a better partner because Crouch is simply a better inside the box striker than Kuyt. If Torres, on the other hand, plays up front, than Kuyt is clearly the best option we have to support him as a second striker.
[/quote]
Sorry mate but I think you've got that the wrong way around. Kuyt needs to play higher up the pitch to get the best out of him. That's what he did for Feyenoord. What's more, having Kuyt deep exploits his lack of pace making it very difficult for him to overlap and join the attack when necessary (as illustrated by his relative absence in the penalty area last season). The same isn't true of Torres. Not only can he link the play but he has the pace to burst through from deep. IMO, he's never looked truly comfortable as a 'first' striker for Atletico. He looks almost stranded at the top of the pitch. Such is his technical ability I think we'd benefit if he was more involved in the build up play.
As far as I'm concerned this system would play to each players strengths; yours would not.
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg327165#msg327165 date=1185821933]
Well done Ross.
I'm glad we don't just ban people willy nilly. I can be a cnut sometimes, and I'm glad I'm still allowed here.
But when idiots like him appear and refuse to add any value whatsoever, AND their put-downs are just rubbish too, then there can't be any other solution than just casting them out beyond the city walls where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.
[/quote]
I actually hate banning people Robinho, but needs must.
I don't understand you're "I'm glad I'm still allowed here" comment. What have you ever done ? I really enjoy when people disagree with each other (and with me in particular) but showing a modicum of respect should be minimum prerequisite in any discussion. I can't remember any time you've failed in that regard.
Well done Ross.
I'm glad we don't just ban people willy nilly. I can be a cnut sometimes, and I'm glad I'm still allowed here.
But when idiots like him appear and refuse to add any value whatsoever, AND their put-downs are just rubbish too, then there can't be any other solution than just casting them out beyond the city walls where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.
[/quote]
I actually hate banning people Robinho, but needs must.
I don't understand you're "I'm glad I'm still allowed here" comment. What have you ever done ? I really enjoy when people disagree with each other (and with me in particular) but showing a modicum of respect should be minimum prerequisite in any discussion. I can't remember any time you've failed in that regard.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=14248.msg327336#msg327336 date=1185838629]
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg327165#msg327165 date=1185821933]
Well done Ross.
I'm glad we don't just ban people willy nilly. I can be a cnut sometimes, and I'm glad I'm still allowed here.
But when idiots like him appear and refuse to add any value whatsoever, AND their put-downs are just rubbish too, then there can't be any other solution than just casting them out beyond the city walls where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.
[/quote]
I actually hate banning people Robinho, but needs must.
I don't understand you're "I'm glad I'm still allowed here" comment. What have you ever done ? I really enjoy when people disagree with each other (and with me in particular) but showing a modicum of respect should be minimum prerequisite in any discussion. I can't remember any time you've failed in that regard.
[/quote]
Don't use such big words Rosco.
[quote author=robinhood link=topic=14248.msg327165#msg327165 date=1185821933]
Well done Ross.
I'm glad we don't just ban people willy nilly. I can be a cnut sometimes, and I'm glad I'm still allowed here.
But when idiots like him appear and refuse to add any value whatsoever, AND their put-downs are just rubbish too, then there can't be any other solution than just casting them out beyond the city walls where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.
[/quote]
I actually hate banning people Robinho, but needs must.
I don't understand you're "I'm glad I'm still allowed here" comment. What have you ever done ? I really enjoy when people disagree with each other (and with me in particular) but showing a modicum of respect should be minimum prerequisite in any discussion. I can't remember any time you've failed in that regard.
[/quote]
Don't use such big words Rosco.
[quote author=Paddy link=topic=14248.msg327343#msg327343 date=1185839371]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=14248.msg327342#msg327342 date=1185839195]
Sorry Paddy.
I tend to do that when I'm drunk.
[/quote]
And quite spectacularly i might add.
[/quote]
I think you're exaggerating.
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=14248.msg327342#msg327342 date=1185839195]
Sorry Paddy.
I tend to do that when I'm drunk.
[/quote]
And quite spectacularly i might add.
[/quote]
I think you're exaggerating.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg327345#msg327345 date=1185839542]
[quote author=Paddy link=topic=14248.msg327343#msg327343 date=1185839371]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=14248.msg327342#msg327342 date=1185839195]
Sorry Paddy.
I tend to do that when I'm drunk.
[/quote]
And quite spectacularly i might add.
[/quote]
I think you're exaggerating.
[/quote]
I think my wording has been absolutely synonymously appropriate with Rosco's efforts.
[quote author=Paddy link=topic=14248.msg327343#msg327343 date=1185839371]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=14248.msg327342#msg327342 date=1185839195]
Sorry Paddy.
I tend to do that when I'm drunk.
[/quote]
And quite spectacularly i might add.
[/quote]
I think you're exaggerating.
[/quote]
I think my wording has been absolutely synonymously appropriate with Rosco's efforts.
[quote author=Paddy link=topic=14248.msg327346#msg327346 date=1185840348]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg327345#msg327345 date=1185839542]
[quote author=Paddy link=topic=14248.msg327343#msg327343 date=1185839371]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=14248.msg327342#msg327342 date=1185839195]
Sorry Paddy.
I tend to do that when I'm drunk.
[/quote]
And quite spectacularly i might add.
[/quote]
I think you're exaggerating.
[/quote]
I think my wording has been absolutely synonymously appropriate with Rosco's efforts.
[/quote]
Retrospectively, I think you'll find that your disproportionate representation of the truth not only constitutes audacious sensationalism, but unashamed disingenuousness.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg327345#msg327345 date=1185839542]
[quote author=Paddy link=topic=14248.msg327343#msg327343 date=1185839371]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=14248.msg327342#msg327342 date=1185839195]
Sorry Paddy.
I tend to do that when I'm drunk.
[/quote]
And quite spectacularly i might add.
[/quote]
I think you're exaggerating.
[/quote]
I think my wording has been absolutely synonymously appropriate with Rosco's efforts.
[/quote]
Retrospectively, I think you'll find that your disproportionate representation of the truth not only constitutes audacious sensationalism, but unashamed disingenuousness.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg327349#msg327349 date=1185842259]
[quote author=Paddy link=topic=14248.msg327346#msg327346 date=1185840348]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg327345#msg327345 date=1185839542]
[quote author=Paddy link=topic=14248.msg327343#msg327343 date=1185839371]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=14248.msg327342#msg327342 date=1185839195]
Sorry Paddy.
I tend to do that when I'm drunk.
[/quote]
And quite spectacularly i might add.
[/quote]
I think you're exaggerating.
[/quote]
I think my wording has been absolutely synonymously appropriate with Rosco's efforts.
[/quote]
Retrospectively, I think you'll find that your disproportionate representation of the truth not only constitutes audacious sensationalism, but unashamed disingenuousness.
[/quote]
This thread has been your typical 6CM topic, disagreements, pure arguments, racism, commentary on our potential forward line a banning people wanting to be mods and now people are waxing lyrical about Ross when he is drunk.
[quote author=Paddy link=topic=14248.msg327346#msg327346 date=1185840348]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg327345#msg327345 date=1185839542]
[quote author=Paddy link=topic=14248.msg327343#msg327343 date=1185839371]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=14248.msg327342#msg327342 date=1185839195]
Sorry Paddy.
I tend to do that when I'm drunk.
[/quote]
And quite spectacularly i might add.
[/quote]
I think you're exaggerating.
[/quote]
I think my wording has been absolutely synonymously appropriate with Rosco's efforts.
[/quote]
Retrospectively, I think you'll find that your disproportionate representation of the truth not only constitutes audacious sensationalism, but unashamed disingenuousness.
[/quote]
This thread has been your typical 6CM topic, disagreements, pure arguments, racism, commentary on our potential forward line a banning people wanting to be mods and now people are waxing lyrical about Ross when he is drunk.
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg327333#msg327333 date=1185837838]
[quote author=rurikbird link=topic=14248.msg327307#msg327307 date=1185832835]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg327301#msg327301 date=1185832069]
Quite simply, I think the player most likely to forge a partnership with Torres is Kuyt. He has the intelligence and (IMO, obviously) the ability to make it work. Whether you think he's good enough to take us forward here is not really the issue. The issue is whether he is the best option we have available currently and I think it's pretty clear that he is.
[/quote]
I think it depends on where Torres will end up playing. If he plays second striker or "in the hole", than Crouch IMO would make a better partner because Crouch is simply a better inside the box striker than Kuyt. If Torres, on the other hand, plays up front, than Kuyt is clearly the best option we have to support him as a second striker.
[/quote]
Sorry mate but I think you've got that the wrong way around. Kuyt needs to play higher up the pitch to get the best out of him. That's what he did for Feyenoord. What's more, having Kuyt deep exploits his lack of pace making it very difficult for him to overlap and join the attack when necessary (as illustrated by his relative absence in the penalty area last season). The same isn't true of Torres. Not only can he link the play but he has the pace to burst through from deep. IMO, he's never looked truly comfortable as a 'first' striker for Atletico. He looks almost stranded at the top of the pitch. Such is his technical ability I think we'd benefit if he was more involved in the build up play.
As far as I'm concerned this system would play to each players strengths; yours would not.
[/quote]
OK, let's look at Kuyt's main strengths:
1. movement and positioning
2. work rate
3. intelligence
... and weaknesses:
1. lack of pace
2. inconsistent first touch
3. inconsistent finishing
Now, where do you put such a striker to get the best out of him? Let's consider all possibilities.
1. First striker/target man/fox in the box.
The environment inside the penalty area is very different from all other areas of the pitch. One important difference is that it is the most congested area on the pitch with the least amount of space and time to operate. A top level defense almost never allows a striker more than one touch inside the area until he is surrounded and tackled. Therefore, first touch is by far the most crucial part of the game for inside the box strikers, because they only meet with the ball for that one touch, after that they either shoot or the chance is gone.
There are other important qualities too. One is positioning, because at top level you won't get even one touch if you don't win a struggle for position. So positioning is also a must-have. Then there are qualities like finishing and athleticism which determine what kind of inside the box striker you are, a stealth scorer in the mold of Robbie Fowler, Raul or Indzaghi (great finishing, no athleticism) or a target man who brings in other players like Drogba, Crouch or Koller (inconsistent finishing, great athleticism) with the likes of RvN, Trezeguet or Shearer somewhere in between. For Drogba, his athleticism is so overpowering that last season it compensated even for some of his technical shortcomings.
2. Second striker/withdrawn striker/in the hole.
That position is harder to pin down because there is such a great variety of second strikers and they are all very different. Some of them have good pace like Rooney and some are slow but very intelligent like Bergkamp. If there is something to be said about them in general is that the main prerequisites for a withdrawn striker are intelligence, creativity and movement. First touch is still important (it's important at any position), but less so than inside the box, because there is more space and time. Good finishing is welcome, but not required. Usually "in the hole" players are judged more but what they add to the attacking play in general than by the number of goals they score.
3. On the wing.
Pace and dribbling ability are usually the main prerequisites for a winger-striker. First touch and positioning are less important.
======
So where does it leave our Dirk Kuyt? He clearly doesn't belong on the wing, even though he played there sometimes for Holland. His first touch is not good enough for an inside the box striker. For a target man he doesn't have enough athleticism (his height is actually a little bit below average at 184cm), at least not in the Premiership. And for a stealth scorer he doesn't have good enough finishing finesse, although his positioning is top-notch. His movement and creativity and ability to cover a lot of ground will be lost if he is locked inside the box.
You might ask why than was he so successful playing up front in Holland? Well, why wouldn't he be successful when allowed two touches inside the box, against much less athletic defenders and being so intelligent and clearly a class above most of his opponents? He had all the qualities needed for a good target man in Holland, but that doesn't mean he has the qualities to be a target man on the top level.
He does have enough good qualities to be successful on top level, but in a different role. Playing withdrawn striker will take full advantage of his movement, creativity and work-rate and it will somewhat hide his problems with first touch and finishing. It would have been nice if he had more pace, but that's not a must-have for a successful second striker. Besides, if we had someone with pace (read: Torres) on the shoulder of the defender that would make through balls much more effective than if Kuyt was playing up front. So yes, I think they COULD make a good partnership with Torres, but it's Torres who should be mostly playing up front.
[quote author=rurikbird link=topic=14248.msg327307#msg327307 date=1185832835]
[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=14248.msg327301#msg327301 date=1185832069]
Quite simply, I think the player most likely to forge a partnership with Torres is Kuyt. He has the intelligence and (IMO, obviously) the ability to make it work. Whether you think he's good enough to take us forward here is not really the issue. The issue is whether he is the best option we have available currently and I think it's pretty clear that he is.
[/quote]
I think it depends on where Torres will end up playing. If he plays second striker or "in the hole", than Crouch IMO would make a better partner because Crouch is simply a better inside the box striker than Kuyt. If Torres, on the other hand, plays up front, than Kuyt is clearly the best option we have to support him as a second striker.
[/quote]
Sorry mate but I think you've got that the wrong way around. Kuyt needs to play higher up the pitch to get the best out of him. That's what he did for Feyenoord. What's more, having Kuyt deep exploits his lack of pace making it very difficult for him to overlap and join the attack when necessary (as illustrated by his relative absence in the penalty area last season). The same isn't true of Torres. Not only can he link the play but he has the pace to burst through from deep. IMO, he's never looked truly comfortable as a 'first' striker for Atletico. He looks almost stranded at the top of the pitch. Such is his technical ability I think we'd benefit if he was more involved in the build up play.
As far as I'm concerned this system would play to each players strengths; yours would not.
[/quote]
OK, let's look at Kuyt's main strengths:
1. movement and positioning
2. work rate
3. intelligence
... and weaknesses:
1. lack of pace
2. inconsistent first touch
3. inconsistent finishing
Now, where do you put such a striker to get the best out of him? Let's consider all possibilities.
1. First striker/target man/fox in the box.
The environment inside the penalty area is very different from all other areas of the pitch. One important difference is that it is the most congested area on the pitch with the least amount of space and time to operate. A top level defense almost never allows a striker more than one touch inside the area until he is surrounded and tackled. Therefore, first touch is by far the most crucial part of the game for inside the box strikers, because they only meet with the ball for that one touch, after that they either shoot or the chance is gone.
There are other important qualities too. One is positioning, because at top level you won't get even one touch if you don't win a struggle for position. So positioning is also a must-have. Then there are qualities like finishing and athleticism which determine what kind of inside the box striker you are, a stealth scorer in the mold of Robbie Fowler, Raul or Indzaghi (great finishing, no athleticism) or a target man who brings in other players like Drogba, Crouch or Koller (inconsistent finishing, great athleticism) with the likes of RvN, Trezeguet or Shearer somewhere in between. For Drogba, his athleticism is so overpowering that last season it compensated even for some of his technical shortcomings.
2. Second striker/withdrawn striker/in the hole.
That position is harder to pin down because there is such a great variety of second strikers and they are all very different. Some of them have good pace like Rooney and some are slow but very intelligent like Bergkamp. If there is something to be said about them in general is that the main prerequisites for a withdrawn striker are intelligence, creativity and movement. First touch is still important (it's important at any position), but less so than inside the box, because there is more space and time. Good finishing is welcome, but not required. Usually "in the hole" players are judged more but what they add to the attacking play in general than by the number of goals they score.
3. On the wing.
Pace and dribbling ability are usually the main prerequisites for a winger-striker. First touch and positioning are less important.
======
So where does it leave our Dirk Kuyt? He clearly doesn't belong on the wing, even though he played there sometimes for Holland. His first touch is not good enough for an inside the box striker. For a target man he doesn't have enough athleticism (his height is actually a little bit below average at 184cm), at least not in the Premiership. And for a stealth scorer he doesn't have good enough finishing finesse, although his positioning is top-notch. His movement and creativity and ability to cover a lot of ground will be lost if he is locked inside the box.
You might ask why than was he so successful playing up front in Holland? Well, why wouldn't he be successful when allowed two touches inside the box, against much less athletic defenders and being so intelligent and clearly a class above most of his opponents? He had all the qualities needed for a good target man in Holland, but that doesn't mean he has the qualities to be a target man on the top level.
He does have enough good qualities to be successful on top level, but in a different role. Playing withdrawn striker will take full advantage of his movement, creativity and work-rate and it will somewhat hide his problems with first touch and finishing. It would have been nice if he had more pace, but that's not a must-have for a successful second striker. Besides, if we had someone with pace (read: Torres) on the shoulder of the defender that would make through balls much more effective than if Kuyt was playing up front. So yes, I think they COULD make a good partnership with Torres, but it's Torres who should be mostly playing up front.
