Poll Our front 3

[rurikbird]

Shall we call them MFC for Mane-Firmino-Coutinho? Just wanted to post some stats on their attacking contribution this season (EPL only):

Mane: 13 goals, 6 assists in 26 stars
Firmino: 10 goals, 9 assists in 29 starts
Coutinho: 9 goals, 6 assists in 22 starts

Overall, this trio has scored 32 out of 68 goals we scored so far this season (47%). Another important stat is how many games all 3 of them have they started together – only 17. Our record in those games is W11 D4 L2, which accounts for 37 out of 51 possible points (72.5%), which, projected over the full season, would equal to about 82-83 points. Whenever Firmino and Coutinho started a game without Mane, our record has been pretty dismal: 2 draws (Chelsea, Bournemouth) and 2 losses (Burnley, Swansea). Firmino and Mane did better without Coutinho: 5 wins, 3 draws, 1 loss (Bournemouth). Coutinho and Mane without Firmino: 2 games, both wins.

Some thoughts and observations:

– First, a positive that should not be overlooked. Klopp in his first full season here has managed to put together a trio of attacking players who balance out each other's qualities and play well together. That's no small feat, since this team didn't have a balanced and productive front line for 2 full seasons since the days of Suarez and Sturridge.
– 32 goals in 32 games for the team's main attacking trio is not bad, but probably not enough for a title-winning team (unless the defense is super-tight, which is not very likely for us). For comparison, Chelsea's front 3 has scored 38 goals this season, Spurs don't play with a front 3, but their top 3 scorers combined for 46 goals so far.
– Stats confirm what we already know: Mane is obviously the catalyst for the other two and when we can't replace his qualities, we struggle.
– Mane has been surprisingly consistent throughout the season, whereas both Brazilians had a bit of a barren spell from mid-November to March (Coutinho has been injured too, but didn't recover his form until the last couple of games).
– If Coutinho stays, this front 3 should give us a good foundation for the future. They are all 24-25 years old and are just entering their prime. They also seem to enjoy playing together.
– At times even when all 3 are present we are still a bit short on things like speed (only Mane), consistent finishing (none of the 3 are really a finisher type, although all 3 are capable of finishing sharply at one time or another) and hold-up ability (only Firmino is decent at that). Some games require more of one thing or the other and I feel we really need 4-5 rather than 3 attacking players of this level to successfully navigate the whole season.

 

[Oliver Twist]

Why narrow down the scoring to three players? We are top scorers in the league. If that's not scoring enough to win the league, what is?

Our problems lie with conceding too many, not any deficiency at the other end. For me, anyway.

 

[rurikbird]

Why narrow down the scoring to three players? We are top scorers in the league. If that's not scoring enough to win the league, what is?

Our problems lie with conceding too many, not any deficiency at the other end. For me, anyway.

Because those things are interconnected. If you have a very potent strike force, you can sustain more defensive players in other positions. If you rely on your midfielders etc scoring a lot of goals, then you will sacrifice some defensive solidity. I don't think mentioning that we are top scorers in the league just automatically erases any concerns about the efficiency of our attack.

For instance, look at the last 2 games – both times we have outplayed the opponents handily in the 2nd half, but could not find the 3rd goal on a counter that would have killed off the game. Protecting a lead and using the space on the counter should be a very comfortable position for any top team, but we are still not very good at this. Contrast it to a team like Bayern, who are so lethal when they get a one-goal lead. Klopp mentioned our failure to kill off teams in the post-match presser – and that's been a persistent problem in a lot of games this season. So yes, our attack is very, very good in some situations, but as this season showed you cannot afford to be predictable in this league and you need to have different tools for different situations.

 

[redhorizon2]

Here's a question. If Mane did not go to the African Cup an was not injured after the Everton win, how many points would we have than now? I would say as as much 7.

 

[YNWA]

Shall we call them MFC for Mane-Firmino-Coutinho? Just wanted to post some stats on their attacking contribution this season (EPL only):


– 32 goals in 32 games for the team's main attacking trio is not bad, but probably not enough for a title-winning team (unless the defense is super-tight, which is not very likely for us). For comparison, Chelsea's front 3 has scored 38 goals this season, Spurs don't play with a front 3, but their top 3 scorers combined for 46 goals so far.

I think looking at non penalty goals would be a better comparison. I believe Milner has scored 7 penalties for us, whereas the penalties for both Chelsea & Spurs are taken by one of their front three i.e. Hazard & Kane

 

[darkstarexodus]

We definitely need at least 1 or 2 attacking players of top quality. We will (hopefully) have many more games to navigate next season and our options have been threadbare and none at times this season

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

@rurikbird is right about the interconnectivity between the attack and our defensive solidity. Klopp must know this and I think that this summer is his moment to really shine and make the team complete. There has been enough time now for him to completely understand the magnitude of the task, the rigors of the league schedule, the quality of the opposition, the attributes of all of our players, and to identify targets in the marketplace.
This summer and next season will define whether we are due another 5 - 10 years in the wilderness or if we can be contenders with our current budget and management staff.

 

[Ryan]

There's only 4 sides in Europe's major leagues that have scored more goals than us - Real, Barca, Bayern and Monaco. No side in England - not even the league leaders are close to us.

Perhaps this continual fucking gnashing of teeth over the 'lack of a proven goalscorer/Firmino not there to score goals/etc etc etc...' is clueless drivel?

Just a thought.

 

[mark1975]

I'd be amazed if we don't buy another goalscorer in the Summer, and then all this "clueless drivel" will become really interesting.

 

[keniget]

There's only 4 sides in Europe's major leagues that have scored more goals than us - Real, Barca, Bayern and Monaco. No side in England - not even the league leaders are close to us.

Where did you get that from?

I looked at a few league tables and it doesn't check out.

 

[Best Believe It]

Well we'll clearly need to sign forwards as currently if you take Firmino, Coutinho or Mane out of the side there's a significant quality drop. Maybe Ings can come back from his injury and be an option but ideally, considering the number of competitions, we'd need 5-6 players for those three positions.

 

[rurikbird]

I think looking at non penalty goals would be a better comparison. I believe Milner has scored 7 penalties for us, whereas the penalties for both Chelsea & Spurs are taken by one of their front three i.e. Hazard & Kane

Good point. Looking at non-penalty goals Chelsea have 35 from their front 3 and Spurs have 42, I think (Kane has 4 pens this season, I didn't check if Alli or Son scored any penalties). I believe in the attacking style we play we need more than one goal per game from our main attacking trio to challenge for the title. 32 in 32 is close, but not quite there.

 

[hmmmmm1]

The problem with system (or players not good enough?) is that 2/3 of the front 4 have to have a good game for us to win.

Whereas united were pretty awful yesterday and won cus they one ace striker.

 

[Oliver Twist]

Because those things are interconnected. If you have a very potent strike force, you can sustain more defensive players in other positions. If you rely on your midfielders etc scoring a lot of goals, then you will sacrifice some defensive solidity.

It's a good point but I don't think you need two sitting in front of the back four, just one. A good one. And two good and functioning centre backs plus a decent gk. Prioritising getting that in order will go along way to us winning more games next season. Obviously we need options up front but I'd be pleased going into next season with the current three as our first choice with Lallana, Wijnaldum and a world class DM behind them. And Matip + 1 world class CB behind them. And a world class GK behind them. By 'world class', I just mean really good.

 

[Kay Age El]

There's only 4 sides in Europe's major leagues that have scored more goals than us - Real, Barca, Bayern and Monaco. No side in England - not even the league leaders are close to us.

Perhaps this continual fucking gnashing of teeth over the 'lack of a proven goalscorer/Firmino not there to score goals/etc etc etc...' is clueless drivel?

Just a thought.

Define 'not even close to us'?

We've scored 3 more than Chelsea and 4 more than Spurs, both teams however have played a game less than us at this stage.

In their last game Spurs scored 4, if they do that again, they've scored the exact same amount as us over the same number of matches.

The reason why we desperately need a striker as I see it, is because they can win you those tight games we've been either drawing or losing. It's great we score a lot of goals when we as a team play well and that we find goals almost from everywhere especially when we face opponents that are also interested in going forward. However when we face the opposite we have really missed that striker that owns the ball, wrestle off a few defenders, runs around a few more and bangs it into the net. Or the one that raises above everyone else in the area heading it into the top corner. Or the one that always pops up in the right place at the right time.

We dearly miss that player even though we have scored a little more than the leaders. Also I kinda get the sense that we'd end 3rd or 4th in that battle when the fat lady sings, we'll see.

*Arsenal are 7 goals in total behind us but has also got three games in the hand to improve upon that stat.

 

[redhorizon2]

Question, if we had not lost Mane through internationals and injuries, how close do you think we'd be near Chelsea?

 

[rurikbird]

Question, if we had not lost Mane through internationals and injuries, how close do you think we'd be near Chelsea?

What's the point in wondering about that? Internationals and injuries are part of football. We are exactly where we deserve to be.

We've definitely made progress compared to last season, even though you wouldn't think we're getting relegated based on some comments after the Bournmouth game.

 

[Ryan]

I'd be amazed if we don't buy another goalscorer in the Summer, and then all this "clueless drivel" will become really interesting.

I don't disagree that we'll buy another forward Mark, bu tI'd be very surprised if Klopp goes out and buys and out and out goalscorer.

I'm not sure I'm as desperate for a 20+ a season striker as some though. I'm more worried about what it'd take away rather than what it'd add frankly. We can score goals, from everywhere, against everyone. Why are we top goalscorers in the league without one? Have you asked yourself that?

Say we buy the modern day Torres, or Owen, or whatever - is that going to improve us? Are we going to win anything with the 2017 Torres? Cos we won fuck all with his 25 goals a season when he was here. Because we became far too reliant, far too one-dimensional, and far too predictable. Look at this United side with Ibrahimovic in it. Sure he's fucking quality, but they're below us and gonna win fuck all. He goes out of the side suspended for 3 weeks and they can't buy a goal, because they have no other route to score. Their entire system is dependent on him being there as the focal point. We don't have that. Remember Brodge's complaining that we couldn't win cos Sturridge was injured in the last year. We all moaned that we were too one-dimensional, and we needed goals from other areas - now we have it, and we're arguing against that!

We lose Mane, everyone fucking soils themselves, and we score 4 in 2 games. At the start of the year if you'd been told Sturridge would contribute less than a handful of goals for the season, and we'd still be the leading scorers in the league - would you have believed it? Bollocks you would.

Something works for us right now. I'd prefer to complement it, rather than overhaul it.

 

[redhorizon2]

What's the point in wondering about that? Internationals and injuries are part of football. We are exactly where we deserve to be.

We've definitely made progress compared to last season, even though you wouldn't think we're getting relegated based on some comments after the Bournmouth game.

It makes very valid point. African Cup happens in mid season, the other internationals are tied up with Europe. It also shows how close we are to Chelsea with him the squad than without him.

 

[rurikbird]

I don't disagree that we'll buy another forward Mark, bu tI'd be very surprised if Klopp goes out and buys and out and out goalscorer.

I'm not sure I'm as desperate for a 20+ a season striker as some though. I'm more worried about what it'd take away rather than what it'd add frankly. We can score goals, from everywhere, against everyone. Why are we top goalscorers in the league without one? Have you asked yourself that?

Say we buy the modern day Torres, or Owen, or whatever - is that going to improve us? Are we going to win anything with the 2017 Torres? Cos we won fuck all with his 25 goals a season when he was here. Because we became far too reliant, far too one-dimensional, and far too predictable. Look at this United side with Ibrahimovic in it. Sure he's fucking quality, but they're below us and gonna win fuck all. He goes out of the side suspended for 3 weeks and they can't buy a goal, because they have no other route to score. Their entire system is dependent on him being there as the focal point. We don't have that. Remember Brodge's complaining that we couldn't win cos Sturridge was injured in the last year. We all moaned that we were too one-dimensional, and we needed goals from other areas - now we have it, and we're arguing against that!

We lose Mane, everyone fucking soils themselves, and we score 4 in 2 games. At the start of the year if you'd been told Sturridge would contribute less than a handful of goals for the season, and we'd still be the leading scorers in the league - would you have believed it? Bollocks you would.

Something works for us right now. I'd prefer to complement it, rather than overhaul it.

Good post and this is exactly the kind of discussion I was hoping to generate in this thread. This is why I wanted to look at the 3 of them – the MFC trio, if you will – and try to look objectively: how good are they? How do they compare statistically to other teams' front lines? Are we completely happy with them as our front 3 or do we still need to improve that area? Actually, I'm going to create a poll now to gauge opinions better.

 

[mark1975]

The crucial point I guess is their age, you'd have to hope that when they hit 26-27 their stats will continue to increase. I don't think that anyone who says we need a reliable goalscorer, automatically thinks Firmino isn't good enough. He's crucial to the way we play, I completely understand that. His industry, unselfishness, vision and ability to chip in with the goals is a huge factor in why he's in there ahead of Origi and Sturridge. The lad is a quality player who I love to watch, when he's at his best.

As we've touched on since the beginning of the season, I still feel there are games where a more clinical marksman can grab the points and be the difference between a draw/win or a loss/draw. Ibra is a good example for United, or even Kane for Spurs, there have been games where they haven't been at their best and one of those guys has grabbed the crucial goal.

Regardless of how well we've done this season in an attacking sense, I still think Klopp will buy an attacker and possibly a goalscoring midfielder in the Summer. To add more goals again and to also cover the European factor too. I think that's a given and then we might see yet another change in dynamic up top. Those three are pretty versatile, so there is room to manoeuvre for accommodating all three and another, at least in certain games. We all know that at times we've lacked that bit of class and a cutting edge, despite our excellent goals for record this season as a collective.

 

[manwithnoname]

I don't disagree that we'll buy another forward Mark, bu tI'd be very surprised if Klopp goes out and buys and out and out goalscorer.

I'm not sure I'm as desperate for a 20+ a season striker as some though. I'm more worried about what it'd take away rather than what it'd add frankly. We can score goals, from everywhere, against everyone. Why are we top goalscorers in the league without one? Have you asked yourself that?

Say we buy the modern day Torres, or Owen, or whatever - is that going to improve us? Are we going to win anything with the 2017 Torres? Cos we won fuck all with his 25 goals a season when he was here. Because we became far too reliant, far too one-dimensional, and far too predictable. Look at this United side with Ibrahimovic in it. Sure he's fucking quality, but they're below us and gonna win fuck all. He goes out of the side suspended for 3 weeks and they can't buy a goal, because they have no other route to score. Their entire system is dependent on him being there as the focal point. We don't have that. Remember Brodge's complaining that we couldn't win cos Sturridge was injured in the last year. We all moaned that we were too one-dimensional, and we needed goals from other areas - now we have it, and we're arguing against that!

We lose Mane, everyone fucking soils themselves, and we score 4 in 2 games. At the start of the year if you'd been told Sturridge would contribute less than a handful of goals for the season, and we'd still be the leading scorers in the league - would you have believed it? Bollocks you would.

Something works for us right now. I'd prefer to complement it, rather than overhaul it.

I think maybe 'everyone soiled themselves' when Mane got injured, was perhaps because there was recent evidence - over a longer period than two games - when his absence coincided with the worst run of form and results in living memory, in which we exited both cups, dropped out of the Top 4, couldn't score a goal to save our fucking lives and lost to the likes of Wolves, Swansea and Hull.

 

[Oliver Twist]

Yeah, we definitely need options. Just not replacements.

 

[Mystic]

We need another player on the same level as Mane, and another player who better than Origi; Mbappe and Pulisic would be the ticket.

 

[keniget]

I don't disagree that we'll buy another forward Mark, bu tI'd be very surprised if Klopp goes out and buys and out and out goalscorer.

I'm not sure I'm as desperate for a 20+ a season striker as some though. I'm more worried about what it'd take away rather than what it'd add frankly. We can score goals, from everywhere, against everyone. Why are we top goalscorers in the league without one? Have you asked yourself that?

Say we buy the modern day Torres, or Owen, or whatever - is that going to improve us? Are we going to win anything with the 2017 Torres? Cos we won fuck all with his 25 goals a season when he was here. Because we became far too reliant, far too one-dimensional, and far too predictable. Look at this United side with Ibrahimovic in it. Sure he's fucking quality, but they're below us and gonna win fuck all. He goes out of the side suspended for 3 weeks and they can't buy a goal, because they have no other route to score. Their entire system is dependent on him being there as the focal point. We don't have that. Remember Brodge's complaining that we couldn't win cos Sturridge was injured in the last year. We all moaned that we were too one-dimensional, and we needed goals from other areas - now we have it, and we're arguing against that!

We lose Mane, everyone fucking soils themselves, and we score 4 in 2 games. At the start of the year if you'd been told Sturridge would contribute less than a handful of goals for the season, and we'd still be the leading scorers in the league - would you have believed it? Bollocks you would.

Something works for us right now. I'd prefer to complement it, rather than overhaul it.

I think everyone is on the same page, no?

It doesn't have to be a case of either or. You can have a fluid front line led by a goal scorer. It usually takes a bit of luck or a shit load of money to assemble one but "goalscorer" doesn't have to mean buying in a #9 that has to have the entire team set up for him in order to be effective.

 

[Modo]

I have no problems with our current front three, the only request I have is for Klopp to get decent back ups. Especially players with pace.

 

[737Max]

I'd go for Douglas Costa at bayern, looks like he's going to be on the move. Agent is hawking him around and he'd be perfect in an interchangeable front 3

Sent from my STV100-4 using Tapatalk

 

[Kay Age El]

I'd go for Douglas Costa at bayern, looks like he's going to be on the move. Agent is hawking him around and he'd be perfect in an interchangeable front 3

Sent from my STV100-4 using Tapatalk

He would be at the very top of my wishlist too if available. Wonderful player that would suit us magnificently.

 

[Ryan]

I think maybe 'everyone soiled themselves' when Mane got injured, was perhaps because there was recent evidence - over a longer period than two games - when his absence coincided with the worst run of form and results in living memory, in which we exited both cups, dropped out of the Top 4, couldn't score a goal to save our fucking lives and lost to the likes of Wolves, Swansea and Hull.

And yet here we are 3rd in the league, with a top 4 spot in our hands. The league fortunately doesn't begin and end in January. You dick.

 

[Kay Age El]

Maybe we also have to look at goals against when looking at goals for? I mean if you have to commit a lot of players going forward to score you might leave yourself more exposed in the back as well?

@Ryan mentions there's nothing wrong with the attack as we've scored most goals of all so far, but what if we look at the goals against stats too?

Chelsea: 65 - 25
Spurs: 64 - 22
Liverpool 68 - 40

Can anyone rule out that the way we play and the amount of players we have to commit going forward are hurting our defensive game as well? So we score loads in the current setup but we also concede almost twice as many goals the ones we'd like to compare ourselves too. and though it doesn't tell the whole story I like to think their might be some correlation between these numbers.

If your strikers/forward players are LESS reliant on your midfielders to add up numbers and create chances you can play with less risk. That's why Kane, Costa etc. are so vital players for Chelsea and Spurs as I see it. And that's why I hope we are also looking to add a potential +20 goalscorer to our team.