Our midfield trio today

[Markeh]

Fàbregas made his first team debut at 16 and was a first team regular at 17, I'm fairly certain noone was holding him back.

I can't remember whether it was him or someone else when Henry left, just there was a lot of talk at the time of how younger players stepped up when the big names left and a slight suggestion that mentally somehow their play was inhibited by the big boys being around.

 

[Markeh]

Same here but the evidence is mounting up that we are better off without him in the midfield, said in another thread about seeing the light with regards to how our midfield functioned without him recently, they all flourished without him there and we looked a genuinely proper team.

Yea Gerrard is a problem for the manager, in some ways it would have been easier not to inherit him but the challenge is for Rodgers to get something out of him. Stevie is a proper hero of mine so it's shit even have a conversation about him with the word detrimental in it. Hopefully it can be a new chapter in his career if he can just adapt and become effective in the team but his game/position or both look like they'll have to change.

 

[Spaghetti Legs]

Yeah, It is tough to criticise him, it can come across as ungrateful or snide but surely 99.99% of people don't mean it like that, just seeing the reality of how it is now.

What happens when we sign another midfielder or 2 which we surely will?, what Gerrard has done in the past cannot just give him a free pass to start every game and cannot be allowed to hinder the team, as mentioned the midfield performance against Spurs should be the template, being honest Gerrard isn't part of that.

 

[Frogfish]

Funny you say that, was thinking about this earlier and posting but couldn't be arsed, Gerrard missed out Henderson a lot, passing (or trying to) to our front 3 straight away and missing the 2 midfielders in front of him out.

Also noticed Henderson played a few short backward/sideways passes to Gerrard almost looking for him to do that when he had other forward options, theres definately something in it with Henderson almost going into his shell when Gerrards next to him, probably Hendersons least effective performance for ages and it coincides with Gerrard coming back.

I thought that too .. initially. Now I think it may have been a specific tactic (which is why Lucas & Gerrard were reversed yesterday). We know Stoke are going to be powerful and throw a lot of crosses into our box, those long balls by Gerrard did two things a) they forced Stoke to sit deeper than they normally would, fearful of Gerrard's passing and the pace of Suarez, Sterling and later Sturridge b) we only need 1 : 3 or 4 to come off to create a goal-scoring opportunity. It may not look as good in print (e.g. 20% success rate in long passes, over say 25m) but could be effective.

 

[juniormember]

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

Okay, the points below are a bit all over the place like Gerrard's passing against Stoke, but I'll try anyway.

If we ignore Gerrard's plethora of poor Hollywood balls for now (we know he's usually a lot better than that) - the defensive mop up work he put in was actually pretty impressive: 3 (100%) successful tackles in important areas, 7 successful clearances in and around the box, 2 blocked shots (1 inside, another oustide the box). That's as good a cleanup job as it gets.

When Gerrard was playing ahead of Lucas, one of the chief complaints was that he too often didn't track the runs of his opponents or press/close down his opponents, frequently just stopping and looking as guys passed him by. That dereliction of duty put a lot of pressure on Lucas and the defence, and it's fair he got slated for it.

However, as the image suggests and from what I saw during this game, rotating him into Lucas' usual defensive role made him a much more defensively responsible player; the main knock on him yesterday was his very poor passing, but I can't accuse him of being lazy in this game. I also suspect the shitty/lazy fullbacks we have also have something to do with the number of failed passes to the wide areas (can't back this point up without going back to watch the game again; just a hunch).

So what I'm saying is - I'd actually like to see this experiment tried out again. A defensively responsible Gerrard with his more usual passing ability from deep is a very scary prospect for opponents to face, given the pace and ability of our attacking players. If this experiment can coach Gerrard to focus on a defensive role while not taking away from his ability and eagerness to turn defence to attack with a quick, accurate sweeping pass, we're going to have another arrow in the bow*.

p.s. We'll need better fullbacks who actually can control the ball with their first touch, or who won't hold up the ball and slow down attacks or turn and pass the ball backwards 9 times out of 10.

 

[mark1975]

Alonso is the blueprint. A way to demonstrate how a defensive midfielder or playmaker is supposed to move the ball.
To me, it's an interesting comparison.

So you're telling us Alonso is a great passer of the ball. We knew that already. You're using completely different conditions to compare, not that it really matters, but people have a bit of a rose tinted memory of Alonso over here, like he was an amazing 100% passer every time he played.

Gerrard tried alot of adventurous passes yesterday, so inevitably many of them didn't come off, that's the nature of his game - he does need to improve certain aspects and his game has definitely gone on the slide, but anyway. You said we didn't create direct chances, Gerrard and Lucas both helped put us on the counter attack many times, something our game was heavily reliant on (and it worked), Suarez, Coutinho, Sterling and then Sturridge were all picking the ball up on the break, quite deep, which is why you could say we didn't get many final balls from the midfield. Certainly not high up the pitch anyway, because it wasn't the way we were playing for the most part, the feeders into the box were the front line, they were the one's interplaying around the area, with our midfielders then trying to run beyond to support.

You're comparing two entirely different set ups, one where Alonso is afforded the luxury of sitting deep and spreading the play (in a more space luxurious league), and one in an environment that's built on constant pressing to force errors. And a Steven Gerrard trying to adjust to a role that Alonso has played throughout his entire career.

The love for Alonso is sound, just don't ram it down our throats eh, Steven Gerrard was a magnificent player when Alonso was here, and for all the latters passing ability, he wasn't close to being as rounded a player that Gerrard was, so comparing their abilities in the same role now, when one of them has played that role forever and the other one is really just getting started (after being an attacker most of his career) is a bit OTT and ultimately, a bit too agenda-ish again.

 

[Mystic]

Okay, the points below are a bit all over the place like Gerrard's passing against Stoke, but I'll try anyway.

If we ignore Gerrard's plethora of poor Hollywood balls for now (we know he's usually a lot better than that) - the defensive mop up work he put in was actually pretty impressive: 3 (100%) successful tackles in important areas, 7 successful clearances in and around the box, 2 blocked shots (1 inside, another oustide the box). That's as good a cleanup job as it gets.

When Gerrard was playing ahead of Lucas, one of the chief complaints was that he too often didn't track the runs of his opponents or press/close down his opponents, frequently just stopping and looking as guys passed him by. That dereliction of duty put a lot of pressure on Lucas and the defence, and it's fair he got slated for it.

However, as the image suggests and from what I saw during this game, rotating him into Lucas' usual defensive role made him a much more defensively responsible player; the main knock on him yesterday was his very poor passing, but I can't accuse him of being lazy in this game. I also suspect the shitty/lazy fullbacks we have also have something to do with the number of failed passes to the wide areas (can't back this point up without going back to watch the game again; just a hunch).

So what I'm saying is - I'd actually like to see this experiment tried out again. A defensively responsible Gerrard with his more usual passing ability from deep is a very scary prospect for opponents to face, given the pace and ability of our attacking players. If this experiment can coach Gerrard to focus on a defensive role while not taking away from his ability and eagerness to turn defence to attack with a quick, accurate sweeping pass, we're going to have another arrow in the bow*.

p.s. We'll need better fullbacks who actually can control the ball with their first touch, or who won't hold up the ball and slow down attacks or turn and pass the ball backwards 9 times out of 10.

Great post, completely agree.

 

[Mystic]

I think people are being harsh on @Modo here. When we're talking about a holding player its completely valid to compare him to arguably the best holding player in the world, I found it interesting to compare the passes made. Maybe Modo should have made a point of it in the original post, but the agenda stuff is a bit much.

 

[mark1975]

I think people are being harsh on @Modo here. When we're talking about a holding player its completely valid to compare him to arguably the best holding player in the world, I found it interesting to compare the passes made. Maybe Modo should have made a point of it in the original post, but the agenda stuff is a bit much.

How is it "completely valid" to compare him to the best deep-lying play maker there is? The point is yet another slight on Gerrard and about Xabi and how we could do with him (again). I'm still waiting for a response over Lucas' defensive contribution, something Modo regularly champions and a point I made that inevitably got ignored. Or are we just chatting about how great Alonso is?

 

[Hansern]

Good post Studsup. I'd like to see Alle - Hendo infront of Gerrard. Two dynamic midfielders pressing infront of Gerrard in the Pirlo role. In our best midfield performance against Spurs, didnt Lucas only make a couple of tackles?
Just because of the great work done by the two midfielders infront of him.

 

[Mystic]

How is it "completely valid" to compare him to the best deep-lying play maker there is? The point is yet another slight on Gerrard and about Xabi and how we could do with him (again). I'm still waiting for a response over Lucas' defensive contribution, something Modo regularly champions and a point I made that inevitably got ignored. Or are we just chatting about how great Alonso is?

Because that's what he's trying to be? It's quite simple. I don't think this was a slight on Gerrard, more a comparison on how their passing style differs.

 

[DHSC]

Rodgers said to expect Gerrard to play more in the deep role. Gerrard's smart and adaptable, he should be able to do well.

 

[OLD_Lewy]

ye i think gerrard will do better as time goes by, he just needs to adapt, he was always going to have to make this change at some point, henderson still made some good runs from deeps yesterday and thats clearly one of his jobs in midfield, id like to see see lucas and gerrard rotating depending who we are playing tbh

 

[StevieM]

Another thing I just noticed, is that our midfield barely created any chances (according to those maps).

Lucas created one chance it seems and that's it.

That's one more created than he has in the past 3 seasons.

At one point, I saw him pop up attacking down the left wing & I though someone had dropped acid in to my coffee.

 

[StevieM]

Good post Studsup. I'd like to see Alle - Hendo infront of Gerrard. Two dynamic midfielders pressing infront of Gerrard in the Pirlo role. In our best midfield performance against Spurs, didnt Lucas only make a couple of tackles?
Just because of the great work done by the two midfielders infront of him.

The issue for me is - Gerrard needs to be rock solid in defending if he is going to play there - and he needs to be very accurate with his passes

Our 2 FB's push up high to give attacking width and when we have the ball - our 2 CB's drift out wide to each side and the DM drops deep till he's practically playing between the 2 CB's - if Gerrard then Hollywoods it straight back and we get hit with a fast counter we're all sorts of fucked.

Lucas in that role rarely hits it long - which means technically we should retain the ball more often.

Now I get it - Gerrard has a much superior range is passing & if our grand strategic plan for success is "get the ball to Suarez in dangerous areas as quickly as possibly" then so be it - it works.

Gerrard as the deep DM will be great from time to time - when he's given space & time to pick out passes on a big pitch against teams playing 1 forward & not pressing (the sort of games Agger gets clean sheets in).

.... but if Rodgers decides to okay Gerrard in that deep role against top quality opposition - I think we'll get bent over, parted & brutally sodomised.

 

[Modo]

How is it "completely valid" to compare him to the best deep-lying play maker there is? The point is yet another slight on Gerrard and about Xabi and how we could do with him (again). I'm still waiting for a response over Lucas' defensive contribution, something Modo regularly champions and a point I made that inevitably got ignored. Or are we just chatting about how great Alonso is?

Like I said the Alonso image is there to demonstrate how defensive midfielder's distribution is supposed to look.
Yes, it is unfair to play him in a position that he isn't used to and compare him to one of the best players in the world in that position but it's also unfair to move Lucas out of the way in order to accommodate him. It's not like I haven't seen Mascherano mentioned when Lucas is discussed?

The big difference between Gerrard and Lucas in that position is that Lucas tends to stop attacks further up the pitch. He's better at anticipating where the ball is supposed to be and he allows us to keep possession by playing it simple.
All those challenges Gerrard won in and around the box is a sign of pressure. Those long red arrows probably created that pressure and he needs to realise that he doesn't always have to find the perfect pass. I don't have to tell you that how important possession is especially away from home.

I understand the idea of playing Gerrard there. I get that we're trying to use his passing to quickly turn defence into attack but I wasn't impressed by what I saw yesterday.
Sure, I'm willing to give Gerrard a little time there considering how the game ended but after the first half I didn't want to see him in that position again.

 

[DHSC]

Now I get it - Gerrard has a much superior range is passing & if our grand strategic plan for success is "get the ball to Suarez in dangerous areas as quickly as possibly" then so be it - it works.

I think there's where hopefully Gerrard's experience comes in, knowing when to pick a pass.

 

[FoxForceFive]

Alonso was like Spam in the 1980s. Good at the time, but ............. JUST FUCKING GET OVER IT!! He is last decades news.

I like the Hendo and Lucas maps, not taking too many risks in central and defensive areas. But more adventurous higher up and in wider positions. Gerard's misplaced passes all seem to be aimed to wide positions, and more than 20 yards long, suggesting it might have been a tight pitch with little gaps between defenders to try those Hollywood balls into. Which even David Blunkett knew after watching that.

It also show he should maybe pick them more carefully. Tbf he normally plays the long passes for us, but does so from ten yards further up the pitch, so it's safe to assume his viewpoint is quite different & he'll need to adjust his timing & delivery a little to account for the perspective & distance change.

 

[Modo]

Fast forward to 8:55 (match time)



Here's my reaction from the match thread:

Why Gerrard? Play it simple.

 

[Fabio]

Gerrard can't play that position in my opinion.

 

[Oncy]

I thought Gerrard was great yesterday.
His break up play and graft was superb in his first game in the role and just back from injury.
His long passing wasnt good but thats an anomoly, we already know how well he passes the ball.
The question was will he be disciplined. He was. He did an excellent job.
Only my opinion but I had him in our top three players.

 

[Mamma Mia]

I thought Gerrard was great yesterday.
His break up play and graft was superb in his first game in the role and just back from injury.
His long passing wasnt good but thats an anomoly, we already know how well he passes the ball.
The question was will he be disciplined. He was. He did an excellent job.
Only my opinion but I had him in our top three players.

I thought he did well too, as did Mr. Rodgers.

I also think Lucas did well and haven't noticed anyone commenting on the times he tracked back to stop an attack by tackling cleanly from behind. He's obviously not as good going forward, but to see the advanced midfielder breaking up attacks like that gives me an indication of the gaffa's thinking, and it could work well once everyone settles into their roles. As long as we keep picking up 3 points while they find their feet, I am happy with the reshuffle.

Henderson wasn't great in possession yesterday, but he still did some very good work.

Lastly, Modo is by far the most improved poster on here over the past couple of years. Like KHL, whether you agree with his points or not, he gets discussion going here by making posts that are about football and have some thought put into them.

It would be nice if @mark1975 would stop the constant sniping and harassment and go back to talking footie like he used to before having 20 kids turned him into a grumpy old fucker.

 

[Mystic]

I thought Gerrard was great yesterday.
His break up play and graft was superb in his first game in the role and just back from injury.
His long passing wasnt good but thats an anomoly, we already know how well he passes the ball.
The question was will he be disciplined. He was. He did an excellent job.
Only my opinion but I had him in our top three players.

I'm certainly looking forward to seeing him there again, if he was more intelligent with his choice of pass, yesterday would have been a great performance, I also think he'll benefit hugely from having Allen alongside him.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

I think with Gerrard in that role, we're talking about exciting potential but with an asterisk and a footnote that says "* if we can trust him to be disciplined and defensively responsible". Defensively, he was solid yesterday but it remains to be seen whether that is the standard he can hit every time he's played there.

If the hounds ahead of him are running their legs off hounding and harassing, Gerrard's job would be more akin to Lucas' role against Spurs, mainly cleanly sweeping up, with the bonus of initiating counter attacks from deep. The test will come when the hounds ahead of him are not winning a lot of possession. This was what happened yesterday, and it also wasn't helped by the fact that Stoke still plays the long ball bypassing midfield as the first, second and third option. Gerrard passed that test yesterday from the defensive standpoint but doubts will still be there until he can pull off a string of performances like that.

 

[Halmeister]

It was odd, I didn't see the game as I was working, but got in for the full time analysis and they did a piece on Gerrard in this role and how well he played. Then I come on here and everyone was slating him, So I don't know what to think.

 

[doctor_mac]

It was odd, I didn't see the game as I was working, but got in for the full time analysis and they did a piece on Gerrard in this role and how well he played. Then I come on here and everyone was slating him, So I don't know what to think.

I think you know that the slavering LFC nerds watching juddering streams on their computers (whilst simultaneously posting their outrage at their staccato glimpses of the game) know best.

 

[Mamma Mia]

It was odd, I didn't see the game as I was working, but got in for the full time analysis and they did a piece on Gerrard in this role and how well he played. Then I come on here and everyone was slating him, So I don't know what to think.

That's why I commented about the embarrassing match threads. Some people are quick to slate small errors vociferously in those threads as they happen, without the big picture unfolding.

If you tell the captain to fuck off 5 times in the first 35min, it's hard to hold your hand up after the match and say he had a good game.

 

[Glen C]

It was odd, I didn't see the game as I was working, but got in for the full time analysis and they did a piece on Gerrard in this role and how well he played. Then I come on here and everyone was slating him, So I don't know what to think.

Gerrard deep

Steven Gerrard: Holding role
There was a tactical tweak for this game with Gerrard coming in as a holding midfielder with Lucas Leiva uncharacteristically operating in a more advanced role. "We'd been working on it," revealed Gerrard in his post-match interview. "The manager told me that moving forward I'll be playing this role a lot more. It's going to take a bit of getting used to it. I'll be comfortable in there once I get used to it."
While there was praise for Gerrard in the Sky Sports studio, the Liverpool captain's own words hint at the reality that this was a mixed performance. There were plenty of positives. The 33-year-old gained possession for his side on 16 occasions, four more than anyone else on the pitch and more than twice as many as any Liverpool player. Nobody on either side made more tackles.

Steven Gerrard's passing was very different on Sunday (right) compared to his role on the opening day (left)
But there were misunderstandings and moments of sloppiness too. Jordan Henderson appeared to anticipate Gerrard staying put to receive a lay-off only to for his captain to break forwards, allowing Adam the chance to take advantage of the vacant space to fire home an equaliser. It was also Gerrard's miscontrol that led to Stoke's third goal through Walters.
Gerrard's passing was also a double-edged sword for Liverpool. "Lucas is great defensively but, in terms of passing, Gerrard brings more to the role," said Carragher. It's true that Gerrard offers a greater range of passing in that deep position but the nature of the role is such that ball retention is considered paramount. Gerrard's pass completion rate of 75.9 per cent was less than ideal.

 

[King Binny]

Jamie Carragher:
[article]After the match Gerrard told Sky Sports how well he is adapting to playing in a new, deeper holding role at Rodgers' request and Carragher said that it's a position the 33-year-old is ideally suited to.

"I think he'll want to play there. The longer it goes on the more he'll realise that maybe he's not the Steven Gerrard of Istanbul - charging about the pitch, getting goals, creating goals.

"This is something that you see a lot from midfielders now - dropping in between the centre-backs. It's like a modern theme within the game.

"He's like a quarterback with his range of passing but he can also get back and get blocks in. You know you are going to get that from Steven Gerrard whether he's playing the holding role or is attacking midfield role.

"In that position he adds a little bit more than Lucas in that position with the ball. I sometimes wonder if they could prolong his career by playing him at centre-back. In 12-18 months' time he might even go there because not many centre-backs would have his range of passing.

"But for the time being it looks as though he's going to play this role because it's the first time I've ever seen Lucas Leiva play in an attacking midfield role for Liverpool and the lad played well."[/article]