Patience

[Frogfish]

Fair enough.

But . . . in the 4-2-3-1 we're playing, where essentially we have wide forwards on the wings instead of wingers, it becomes all the more important that the "2" in the 4-2-3-1 are great defensively. Ideally another DM in there next to Grav would be the solution. Or even better, a 4-3-3 with a DM central and Grav & Macca either side of him.

Bajcetic anyone?

It is a balancing act. We can't have 2 x DM with a disconnect (too much distance) to an AM (Wirtz). I think this is where we are seeing either Macca or Gravy being more aggressive going forward this season.

Unfortunately Macca is a million miles off his form of last season (or Jones going on walkabout if he's playing) so it all breaks down and with the wings (Mo. & Gakpo) being uninvolved (or just crap), or they're passing the ball away, it doesn't allow us to build because we are often chasing our arse back the other way as soon as they give the ball away.

We really need to fix the obvious (Mo Macca & Konate) before delving deeper, because fixing them may fix the whole system.

 

[Frogfish]

Yea, Wirtz in a free-roaming role coming off the left.

With the ball it becomes like a 4-4-2 diamond with Witz behind Isak and Salah. Without the ball its a 4-3-3. with Wirtz out left.

I'd like to see this but you know Slot is not going to play two wingers (Gakpo + Salah).

 

[darkstarexodus]

We bought an absolute shit load of talent, seemingly with the thought that we'd have immense tactical flexibility and that smart players would interchange across the field. Options at every position.

In practice, we're seeing that no one has worked out where they should go or how they should collaborate, which leaves us reliant on individual brilliance.

And, from Mo, Wirtz and Isak specifically (for reasons of age, confidence, fitness respectively) we are not getting that individual brilliance.

There's something to be said about having a clear tactical plan and the players to execute that plan. (Or building the plan around the players you have.) This is the work that Slot has ahead of him. Glad we have a break for him to figure it out.

 

[mark1975]

We really could have done with another solid midfielder, that's the real issue.

We got away with Gravenberch last season but it didn't always look watertight, you sensed that teams were running through us a bit too often, and now everyone seems to have figured out how to beat our press, because it's nowhere near as intense as it was under Klopp.

If we want to be a possession team the first thing we need is the ability to win the ball back quickly. As it stands, it doesn't matter where we give the ball away on the pitch, it always looks like the opposition are one or two passes from putting us under threat. We're not on the front foot at all, we're not aggressive enough and we've added a lot of players who are less aggressive than what we already had. The whole thing is unbalanced. Man for man they might all be good buys, but the problem is that we don't have the platform and foundations to give them the freedom to perform. And besides that, it's a teams game and a mans game, Wirtz and a few others look like they barely give a fuck or have the capacity to do rectify giving the ball away.

 

[Beamrider]

This international break is going to be important for Slot. The games have come thick and fast since the last break, there's barely time to properly analyse, debrief, plan before the next game is here. In between times the players need physical assessment, rest and recovery and then prep for the next game and they go again.
Slot needs to take time over the next 10 days or so before the players start to come back to do some proper analysis on what's not been working and why, and then he needs to tweak the approach for the upcoming games. The problem is he isn't going to have much time to instil all that in the players before they are lining up against United. The plus side is that we now only have Macca who will be travelling to and from a distant time zone and potentially returning to training a day late and jet-lagged (both in terms of his travel, and also in terms of playing games outside the normal time slots in the day - most of the guys will play (European) afternoons / evenings, the Argentina games will be post midnight our time, which will throw his rhythm out, such as it is).
I'm as disappointed as anyone with how things have gone, particularly over the last few weeks, but I think the next batch of fixtures will tell us a lot about how things are going to pan out.

 

[mark1975]

This international break is going to be important for Slot. The games have come thick and fast since the last break, there's barely time to properly analyse, debrief, plan before the next game is here. In between times the players need physical assessment, rest and recovery and then prep for the next game and they go again.
Slot needs to take time over the next 10 days or so before the players start to come back to do some proper analysis on what's not been working and why, and then he needs to tweak the approach for the upcoming games. The problem is he isn't going to have much time to instil all that in the players before they are lining up against United. The plus side is that we now only have Macca who will be travelling to and from a distant time zone and potentially returning to training a day late and jet-lagged (both in terms of his travel, and also in terms of playing games outside the normal time slots in the day - most of the guys will play (European) afternoons / evenings, the Argentina games will be post midnight our time, which will throw his rhythm out, such as it is).
I'm as disappointed as anyone with how things have gone, particularly over the last few weeks, but I think the next batch of fixtures will tell us a lot about how things are going to pan out.

Quite. And on that note, when we do return, if he persists with the same and hopes for a miracle, then he deserves all the flack he gets. Let's hope he sorts it.

 

[Squiggles]

There's no obvious or easy solution to our established players being shit and our new signings not bedding in well, so I think we are going the muddle on until January/February by which time we'll have more data to go off.

In the mean time we've got an international break followed by a pretty favourable run of games. Smashing United at Anfield is a perfect opportunity to reignite some momentum and life into the side, Frankfurt and Brentford away to follow. I'm not expecting some slick performances, but we're at the point where we need to stop the rot and just win some football matches.

 

[mom]

the break has come at a great time.
Honestly, as poor as they are, I think if we had played Utd this weekend after their win and our poor streak, they’d have beaten us.

 

[darkstarexodus]

We really could have done with another solid midfielder, that's the real issue.

We got away with Gravenberch last season but it didn't always look watertight, you sensed that teams were running through us a bit too often, and now everyone seems to have figured out how to beat our press, because it's nowhere near as intense as it was under Klopp.

If we want to be a possession team the first thing we need is the ability to win the ball back quickly. As it stands, it doesn't matter where we give the ball away on the pitch, it always looks like the opposition are one or two passes from putting us under threat. We're not on the front foot at all, we're not aggressive enough and we've added a lot of players who are less aggressive than what we already had. The whole thing is unbalanced. Man for man they might all be good buys, but the problem is that we don't have the platform and foundations to give them the freedom to perform. And besides that, it's a teams game and a mans game, Wirtz and a few others look like they barely give a fuck or have the capacity to do rectify giving the ball away.

The other piece to this is that we give the ball away far too cheaply, giving the opposition the chance to come back at a midfield and defence that isn't capable of stopping them.

The little passes in midfield, the ball progression from the back, the final ball in and around the box: all of it not good enough. And it's not because the players aren't talented enough, they just have no idea how to support each other, where to look, or where to make the run.

 

[MomoWASright]

Hmm to a degree I can't agree with this. Players won't integrate from the bench. They have to be played. The key is solving the onfield issues we have now by dropping those players clearly out of form/fitness. Unless that's what you meant.

This still comes out of a pragmatic approach. Don’t keep the same XI. Make slight changes between games but also changes within games.

Use Slobby, Jones and Mac when the time is right. Same for Gakpo and Rio. Kerkez and Robbo. And so on.

Keep a core and make those subtle changes. When we have 2 games a week don’t be giving 180 to the same players, look for 100-120 minutes.

That way you keep players right at full match fitness and integrating others with most of a match in their legs.

 

[Frogfish]

This still comes out of a pragmatic approach. Don’t keep the same XI. Make slight changes between games but also changes within games.

Use Slobby, Jones and Mac when the time is right. Same for Gakpo and Rio. Kerkez and Robbo. And so on.

Keep a core and make those subtle changes. When we have 2 games a week don’t be giving 180 to the same players, look for 100-120 minutes.

That way you keep players right at full match fitness and integrating others with most of a match in their legs.

Seems to me that's what he's been doing? The issue is starting out of form players. Especially Salah and Macca.

 

[MomoWASright]

He’s not doing subtle changes. He’s playing midfielders in defence and players who clearly don’t have the legs to start. If Konate has to come off put on Gomez. Don’t be putting Gravenberch back there. If Bradley has to come off use Frimpong. Taking off Bradley for Wirtz then moving Szoboszlai to RB isn’t subtle. Isak still shouldn’t be starting when Ekitike is on the bench. Mac shouldn’t be in the squad if he can’t even do 80 minutes a week.

 

[Dreambeliever]

As a supporter base it could be 3 months.

Klopp lost 6 home games in a row in our title defence season but had more credit in the bank and I don’t remember people jumping on him to this level this quickly.

What happened to our famed ‘intelligent’ fans.

Fuck me, Slot can finish 6th this season and I’d still back him.

 

[jexykrodic]

As he's a coach and doesn't decide recruitment (influence maybe but not decide) he's given players to work with. There is bound to be a period of experimentation before cohesion.

That said it doesn't excuse players being careless with passing and turning a controlled situation into chaos.

 

[Dreambeliever]

It’s also really fucking hard to go back to back.

 

[Frogfish]

That said it doesn't excuse players being careless with passing and turning a controlled situation into chaos.

And that is generally beyond a manager's control - short of not playing them at all (is Amorim that bad or are maybe the plaeyrs mostly bloody awful)?

 

[YNWAUnlessScapegoat]

Klopp lost 6 home games in a row in our title defence season but had more credit in the bank and I don’t remember people jumping on him to this level this quickly.

What happened to our famed ‘intelligent’ fans.

Fuck me, Slot can finish 6th this season and I’d still back him.

We don't have a fanbase that's better than anyone elses. Take a step back and you'll see how whiny football fans can get no matter if they support us, United, City, Chelsea or Millwall. Constantly scapegoating players and acting like football is played the same way as FIFA. Things take time and we don't know and have the same amount of information that a world class multi-billion club with it's staff and facilities does. Yet fans think all it takes is change formation to something else or don't start the player they hate and all will be fixed.

Lucas Leiva, Henderson, Lovren, Karius, Szoboszlai, Trent, Gakpo, Konate. There's always gonna be someone to blame from people who think football is simple.

 

[tombrown]

This bot makes sense 🤔

 

[MomoWASright]

We don't have a fanbase that's better than anyone elses. Take a step back and you'll see how whiny football fans can get no matter if they support us, United, City, Chelsea or Millwall. Constantly scapegoating players and acting like football is played the same way as FIFA. Things take time and we don't know and have the same amount of information that a world class multi-billion club with it's staff and facilities does. Yet fans think all it takes is change formation to something else or don't start the player they hate and all will be fixed.

Lucas Leiva, Henderson, Lovren, Karius, Szoboszlai, Trent, Gakpo, Konate. There's always gonna be someone to blame from people who think football is simple.

We blamed them and when the ones who left achieved shit. So we could see us as being right for calling them shit.

 

[jan]

This might be a cunty thing to mention but I'd expect a hugely popular team player suddenly dying also has a big effect on the players and staff

I know that winning the unexpected summer transfer window trophy was crazy and that dopamine wears off fast but I think we shouldn't expect too much from this season in any way because the overpaid cunts we like to watch week in week out aren't robots*, even if the game and lots of fans would love to see them that way

*except Haaland he can get fucked the gormless skynet replicunt

 

[MomoWASright]

I’ve lost people who were immensely popular whom I was close to in the workplace in tragic ways. I couldn’t use that as a reason for poor performance 3 months later.

 

[Modo]

It's not cunty at all, but this is: I didn't hear this excuse when we were winning? I actually heard the opposite, that we somehow persevered despite losing Jots.

Also, how are Wirtz, Isak, Ekitike etc affected by it?

Alisson lost his father a few years ago, we didn't see a significant drop in his performance when that happened.

I just don't buy it. We saw signs of this "loss of form" before the summer. Some of us called it a blip, some took offence. Remember that period we played Villa, Everton etc? Got knocked out the CL, lost the cup final. I believe that we're still there.

 

[localny]

I’ve lost people who were immensely popular whom I was close to in the workplace in tragic ways. I couldn’t use that as a reason for poor performance 3 months later.

No one is, in fairness. BUT, it could well be there.

 

[peekay]

It's not cunty at all, but this is: I didn't hear this excuse when we were winning? I actually heard the opposite, that we somehow persevered despite losing Jots.

Also, how are Wirtz, Isak, Ekitike etc affected by it?

Alisson lost his father a few years ago, we didn't see a significant drop in his performance when that happened.

I just don't buy it. We saw signs of this "loss of form" before the summer. Some of us called it a blip, some took offence. Remember that period we played Villa, Everton etc? Got knocked out the CL, lost the cup final. I believe that we're still there.

I posted this in April: https://www.sixcrazyminutes.com/threads/is-this-sustainable.213546/

Several posters agreed with the general sentiment that we had not been at our best since around the PSG ties. My concern is that our squad had muscle memory of Klopp'ball when the last season began. When Slot introduced his tweaks, it was on the base of what Klopp had built , and the result was brilliant. Slot definitely deserves credit for that.

But as the memory of Klopp's tactics starts fading, how will Slot adapt? That is still an open question for me. We saw that at Everton 10 years ago. Martinez had a very good first season when he introduced his attacking tactics on the foundation of Moyes' defense. But second season onwards, things started to unravel.

Posters have complained about players not being able to make simple passes and have blamed it on the players. Often, that is a sign of a confused team that doesn't know what to do. I am a bit worried about Wirtz signing, but I am confident he can play a simple pass to where he wants to. While I appreciate proactive substitutions, the fact that we are making substitutions at a higher frequency immediately after the first half shows that our preparation is not where it needs to be.

When our great team under Klopp was built, we prioritized pace, fire, and technical ability for the wide players - Mane, Salah. Gakpo and Wirtz are unexciting in that regard. Not sure why we dropped that approach.

Most of our summer signings are system players who require the right environment and tactics to excel. Ekitike possesses individual qualities - pace and finishing, which will shine in any system. No wonder he looks the best of the summer signings. Given the outlay in the summer, we should have had more of the "will take the attack to the opposition and drag the team to victory irrespective of the tactics" attackers.

 

[darkstarexodus]

I posted this in April: https://www.sixcrazyminutes.com/threads/is-this-sustainable.213546/

Several posters agreed with the general sentiment that we had not been at our best since around the PSG ties. My concern is that our squad had muscle memory of Klopp'ball when the last season began. When Slot introduced his tweaks, it was on the base of what Klopp had built , and the result was brilliant. Slot definitely deserves credit for that.

But as the memory of Klopp's tactics starts fading, how will Slot adapt? That is still an open question for me. We saw that at Everton 10 years ago. Martinez had a very good first season when he introduced his attacking tactics on the foundation of Moyes' defense. But second season onwards, things started to unravel.

Posters have complained about players not being able to make simple passes and have blamed it on the players. Often, that is a sign of a confused team that doesn't know what to do. I am a bit worried about Wirtz signing, but I am confident he can play a simple pass to where he wants to. While I appreciate proactive substitutions, the fact that we are making substitutions at a higher frequency immediately after the first half shows that our preparation is not where it needs to be.

When our great team under Klopp was built, we prioritized pace, fire, and technical ability for the wide players - Mane, Salah. Gakpo and Wirtz are unexciting in that regard. Not sure why we dropped that approach.

Most of our summer signings are system players who require the right environment and tactics to excel. Ekitike possesses individual qualities - pace and finishing, which will shine in any system. No wonder he looks the best of the summer signings. Given the outlay in the summer, we should have had more of the "will take the attack to the opposition and drag the team to victory irrespective of the tactics" attackers.

Agree with all of this.

Particularly interesting point about Ekitike, who did well in a two man attack with Marmoush but continued to produce in the back half of the season after the latter had left for City.

Long term, there's still a lot to be hopeful for. But the current state needs tons of work.