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I think Shearer had a go at someone else on MOTD for doing something similar to that stamp.

Did he get a ban?

No, he talked absolute shite that it was totally unintentional, and because he was England captain and it was only some annoying ginger Irish cunt the FA decided there was no point in making a fuss about it. Lennon can feel lucky he wasn't banned for a cowardly and heinous attack on Shearer's foot with his face.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sport/football/86318.stm
 
It probably helped that the player he stamped on, Neil Lennon, spoke on Shearer's behalf and backed up his claims that it was not malicious in his official defence.

Lennon only did that, I presume, because he was a hard player himself and he didn't want Shearer banned. Outside of the FA enquiry he said the ref should have punished Shearer on the field of play, which means he did believe he had been deliberately kicked in the face. Which, of course, he was.
 
Lennon only did that, I presume, because he was a hard player himself and he didn't want Shearer banned. Outside of the FA enquiry he said the ref should have punished Shearer on the field of play, which means he did believe he had been deliberately kicked in the face. Which, of course, he was.

So outside of the enquiry he had one opinion, but he agreed to testify in Shearer's defence anyway because he was "hard"?
 
I get that Brendan is probably taking the point too far, but surely the criticism is valid. I don't understand why people can't see the positive and negative with Firmino. The negative clearly exists (as it does with any player), so a discussion about it is valid.

(Btw, for the record I love Firmino and would argue that his contribution is highly positive.) I think he adds a dimension to the team that is difficult to quantify, but he is clearly effective in creating a more energetic, dynamic attack-minded force. But he really just isn't that clinical. It is frustrating to watch such an obviously great footballer fluff his lines so often at the critical moment because (as Rurik points out) it seems as though his body is too fatigued to do what his mind clearly envisions.

He either needs to get fitter so that he can execute when he needs to (unlikely that this will happen since he probably has an elite level of fitness) or, he needs to practice finishing when utterly shag knackered. I'd be totally surprised if this type of training wasn't already part of the repertoire of the forward players, so I'm assuming that he will improve.

The need for an amazing finisher is obvious, but isn't that what every single team in world football is looking for? I would imagine that uncovering someone in the januuary transfer window that everyone else had overlooked is just not that easy.

So make a fucking "Firminos goals per minute thread" and discuss it... this is post match United. Two goals were scored, none by Firmino. Neither did he waste any sitters. There were probably 5-8 AMs in the 30 M Pound + bracket out there today and none of them scored.
 
It probably helped that the player he stamped on, Neil Lennon, spoke on Shearer's behalf and backed up his claims that it was not malicious in his official defence.
It doesn't take away from Shearer's strop. Also, it looks pretty fucking malicious in the video.
 
does firmino need to score that many more goals? We are hardly struggling to convert chances.
I saw a table the other day - we are actually the 2nd best at converting chances in the league. I forget who was top, Spurs or Arsenal I think. I'll have to try and find the damn thing now.
 
There's a related point that has been made by you, me, Dreamy, Fox and a few others, about the conversion of chances in games when they are at a premium, and the value that a supremely clinical match-winner or goalscorer/ whatever can add to the team when you are only going to get one chance, and you may have to make it on your own. When you "nick" a result.

The other unanswered - and currently unanswerable - question is if the total number of goals scored as a team would be increased or decreased if Firmino was replaced, or playing a different role, but obviously it may be that that replacement isn't actually at the club yet. If you look at obvious metrics like goals scored and assists, then Firmino has a mediocre return; 6 goals and 2 assists in the Premiership. But the work-rate and overall contribution to the team's performance is harder to measure, especially given there isn't a satisfactory "control" to provide a benchmark.

Firmino has 6 goals, which is a goal every 296 minutes, so he's been outscored by all the players you would expect to outscore him - Sanchez, Costa, Ibrahimovic, Kane, Lukaku, Defoe, Aguero, Hazard, Mane, Dele Alli, Benteke, Giroud etc - but also Snodgrass, Lallana, Antonio, Rondon.

But it also means he also has the lowest goal/ minute return of any attacker in the league*, and a worse return than Callum wilson, Fernando Llorente, Son Heung-Min and Charlie Austin, who have all scored 6 goals in less minutes.

So while you could put almost any striker into our team and get more individual goals, it is hard to say that this would mean we win more games, or score more goals overall, because what you might lose in workrate and the ability to force a corner from a mistake, or whatever, is harder to gauge.

So using Dreamy's favourite player, Defoe, for example, he's obviously a far superior finisher, but he doesn't have anywhere near the stamina, workrate and variety of movement into channels, or that understanding with his team-mates, especially Coutinho.

Like everyone, I genuinely do not care who scores, as long as we win. My issue with Firmino - and many others before him, like Crouch - is that for all the value and contribution to the team, elite football is a game of fine margins. Of maximising opportunity to win.

And as I've said on many occasions, while the best defence or the best striker is in NO WAY an essential factor in winning a title, if you look at the last 10-15 years of Champions, the team who has won it - in 80% of examples - had a player who has scored in and around 20 goals. So you're more likely to win it if you have one. Quite obviously.

We could win it with a player who scores 10-12 as a top scorer. It's just far less likely.

*only counting those that have 5 goals or more.
This is a very good post, but you do realise this is pretty much what everyone's been saying to you for the last year?
 
So three points I want to make on this.

  1. Brendan – you can’t throw up some faux-balance for a few posts on what Firmino brings to the side and expect people to take you seriously, when you pepper every match thread and every ratings with a virulent description of what you fucking hate about “that fat useless spastic.” It’s why no one takes you seriously. We read your bickering shit in every thread, so some attempt at balance and greater discourse now just doesn’t wash.
  2. If you take Firmino out of our side and replace him with a ‘goalscorer’; you materially change the structure of our team. You might get more individual goals from your number 9, but not only do we score less as a team, but we compete and operate as an entirely different function. As opposed to say Man Utd or Man City, we don’t have a focal point in attack – we have points; all of whom can score, create, and win games. We heard Brodge lament Sturridge’s absence for 18 straight months, and how that was inhibiting our ability compete for the league after Suarez’s absence – because his entire team was built around that goalscorer finishing stuff. You take that out, and the house of cards falls down, etc. I read some stat that of the 100 goals we scored in the 2016 calendar year, only 5 of them were scored by Sturridge. Great. We’ve lessened our dependency on not just Sturridge, but the traditional number 9 in general. What rendered us impotent when Owen, Torres, and latterly Sturridge were injured, now doesn’t impact us. That is fucking huge, and that’s what Klopp’s brought. Can you imagine how United would cope if Ibrahimovic got injured, Spurs if Kane goes down, City without Aguero? We’re the only top side that can withstand the loss of a forward, and still compete at the top.
  3. And here’s the kicker to point two; we’re the only side in the league with more than 4 players – including Firmino - to have scored 5 league goals or more. Arsenal have 4, Spurs have 4, Man City have 2, Man Utd have 1, … We have 6. Where everyone else has a front 1, or 2, we have a front 5 (plus Milner taking pens); of which Firmino is the glue. In the games that he plays in the front 9, we’ve lost 1 game in 18 months, we’ve scored more than with any alternative in his place, we’ve scored more than any other team in the league, and we’ve scored more (in comparative games) than any Liverpool team in the last 20 years. You might not like him from an aesthetics perspective, but know that if you’re arguing against him – you’re arguing against facts.

I’m all for another great forward, sure – if we can find another Suarez or whomever then fucking go for it. But this forward line – and that’d the discussion – because speaking about Firmino in isolation is largely redundant, is as good as we’ve had in 20-plus years in the premier league, so unless you’re adding something incredible – then you’re just going to take away from the sum of the parts.
 
We’ve lessened our dependency on not just Sturridge, but the traditional number 9 in general. What rendered us impotent when Owen, Torres, and latterly Sturridge were injured, now doesn’t impact us. That is fucking huge, and that’s what Klopp’s brought. Can you imagine how United would cope if Ibrahimovic got injured, Spurs if Kane goes down, City without Aguero? We’re the only top side that can withstand the loss of a forward, and still compete at the top.

Good post, but to be fair, Chelsea so far coped pretty well without Costa – it seems Conte also has built a side that can win absent a focal point. Spurs did struggle mightily to score when Kane was injured or in poor form, but their excellent defense ensured they still collected enough points to be level with us. United will struggle without Zlatan, no question.
 
Oh look it's the flagpole man back again.
Get lost Raz no one cares about your opinion.
You haven't made one decent post in nearly 1000 attempts.
Not one.
 
It's almost as if goalscoring forwards and work hard forwards are mutually exclusive. We buy a goalscorer and it changes the structure of the team? Well only if that goalscorer is completely the wrong fit.

And I don't really agree that the forward line is the "best we've had in 20 years" either. Better than Gerrard behind Torres? Better than Suarez, Sturridge and Sterling? Do me a favour. The system of the team might be more cohesive and functional, but the "front line" doesn't come close to those two. Not even the Owen, Heskey, Anelka one.
 
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I understand Ryan's argument but it's not rock solid. Firmino hasn't looked the same since Coutinho was injured. It's funny that the first thing Coutinho did when he came on against Man U was providing Firmino with a chance. What I'm saying is maybe we're not that reliant on a striker any more but it damn sure would have been great if said player wasn't so reliant on other players as well.
So yeah I'm not totally sold on the idea of buying a new striker. I'm fine with having Firmino upfront. When Mané, Coutinho and Firmino are our front three we attack as a unit, with Lallana also backing them up.
My take is that our focus shouldn't be on the striker it should be on our "wing forwards". We clearly don't have any options there behind Mané and Coutinho. Hence why Klopp was targeting Draxler and Brandt.
 
Oh look it's the flagpole man back again.
Get lost Raz no one cares about your opinion.
You haven't made one decent post in nearly 1000 attempts.
Not one.
You really do have issues dont you leo. Jealous angry bitter fool.
 
I understand Ryan's argument but it's not rock solid. Firmino hasn't looked the same since Coutinho was injured. It's funny that the first thing Coutinho did when he came on against Man U was providing Firmino with a chance. What I'm saying is maybe we're not that reliant on a striker any more but it damn sure would have been great if said player wasn't so reliant on other players as well.
So yeah I'm not totally sold on the idea of buying a new striker. I'm fine with having Firmino upfront. When Mané, Coutinho and Firmino are our front three we attack as a unit, with Lallana also backing them up.
My take is that our focus shouldn't be on the striker it should be on our "wing forwards". We clearly don't have any options there behind Mané and Coutinho. Hence why Klopp was targeting Draxler and Brandt.

How many times - since Coutinho has been hurt has Firmino been up front with Mane and a Coutinho like person buzzing around him? It's normally Origi up front w/Frimino on his side, or Studge ... That clearly doesn't work ...
He was targeting Draxler and Brandt so we have more options ... as bar Coutinho & Mane, we don't have any other players who can do what they do while flanking the 9 ... A definite weakness as Lallana & Gini are far better in the middle 3.
 
How many times - since Coutinho has been hurt has Firmino been up front with Mane and a Coutinho like person buzzing around him? It's normally Origi up front w/Frimino on his side, or Studge ... That clearly doesn't work ...
He was targeting Draxler and Brandt so we have more options ... as bar Coutinho & Mane, we don't have any other players who can do what they do while flanking the 9 ... A definite weakness as Lallana & Gini are far better in the middle 3.
Only games I recall were against the two Manchester teams. Decent result in both despite a goalless Firmino.
Yeah you're right and I've mentioned it before. Getting Sturridge or Origi on demands a change in our line up.
Ideally Origi and Sturridge should be Firmino's replacements.
Like I said, we desperately need options on the wing.
Maybe Markovic wouldn't have been totally useless as an option right about now.
 
This is an interesting argument and I actually feel for Brendan regarding Firminio - at times you can wonder what the fuck is he doing. But equally they all play well together but the classic bit in this discussion is @Modo comment "Great if a said player was not dependent upon other player" in contrast to Ryan's comment about team dependent on an individual. But you have to wonder how good are we without Mane ? If we are kinda lacking without him then does that not say we still depend on individuals ?
 
How many times - since Coutinho has been hurt has Firmino been up front with Mane and a Coutinho like person buzzing around him? It's normally Origi up front w/Frimino on his side, or Studge ... That clearly doesn't work ...
He was targeting Draxler and Brandt so we have more options ... as bar Coutinho & Mane, we don't have any other players who can do what they do while flanking the 9 ... A definite weakness as Lallana & Gini are far better in the middle 3.

Yep, I think you are exactly right; that's the essence of the problem. Firmino's downturn in form came not so much because he misses his buddy Coutinho, but because – duh! – he had to play on the wing with Coutinho out and no other comparable option available (Origi played on the wing in some games, but his game doesn't quite fit what Klopp needs from his wingers). So our weakness is not really up front, but on the wing, where besides Mane and Coutinho we don't have real quality options that don't involve plucking players from other positions to fill the gap.

This means we don't need to sign a Jermaine Defoe type, but we definitely need another wing-forward – someone comparable to Coutinho and Mane's level, which won't be easy to pull off at all. I really think Brandt is the best and most likely option at this point, but it probably won't happen until the summer.
 
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He didn't say that at all, he just pointed out some interesting facts about our current "5" forwards, and our current attacking system, compared with the last 20 years. He's saying that we are scoring more goals but the goals are coming from more players than you would normally expect.
 
Technically he said "as good as".

I get that when you cast your mind back and reflect on the likes of Suarez, Owen, Gerrard, Fowler and co at the peak of their powers it becomes easier to watch Firmino play and think that we should have better.

I'm guilty of doing the same at times. There is no replacement for the exhilaration of watching a phenomenon on the pitch tear through defences week in, week out. No amount stroking your chin and nodding in appreciation at the clever runs into space or pressing defenders into making mistakes. It just doesn't cut it.

The thought that the era of us having those kind of players being over is gutting (as is the knowledge that we've wasted a succession of them).

We don't have any superstars in our side at the moment - Coutinho is probably the closest to being one right now - but it's worth noting that we don't have the average to downright shit supporting cast that many of the previous ones had to put up with.

Crouch, Riera, Voronin, Zenden, Kewell (the cripped version), Smicer, Baros, Cisse, Morientes and so forth and so forth.

Firmino compares very favourably to those guys. Replace some of them with players like Firmino and who knows, we may have won the league by now.

We tried and failed to get Costa, Sanchez and who knows who else meanwhile wasting hideous amounts of cash on shit substitutes. In the summer we'll undoubtedly try again to get that player (or two) who can elevate our game but in the meanwhile we shouldn't be too despondent with what we have.
 
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The forward line is the best we've had for 20 years?

Ahahaha.

Ahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahaha!

This is the season we've recorded our highest ever premier league points tally at Christmas, and if I remember rightly, I'm sure I've read articles saying this is one of the highest scoring seasons we've had in our history, so is it really that outlandish a statement, facts seem to back it up?
 
It's almost as if goalscoring forwards and work hard forwards are mutually exclusive. We buy a goalscorer and it changes the structure of the team? Well only if that goalscorer is completely the wrong fit.

What sort of player would you consider an upgrade on Firmino, Mark? Any examples?
 
This is the season we've recorded our highest ever premier league points tally at Christmas, and if I remember rightly, I'm sure I've read articles saying this is one of the highest scoring seasons we've had in our history, so is it really that outlandish a statement, facts seem to back it up?
The suarez, Sturridge and sterling partnership piss all over it. The Gerrard torres combo destroy it as well.
 
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