Rafa: 'Fine-Tuning needed, not an overhaul'

[foureyes]

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/article5946946.ece

With the net figures, take into account that had Rafa not fucked up with the Keane transfer and sold him back so quickly, there would be an extra £15 to £20 mill to add on.

Again, i'm not saying that Rafa has had more to spend than Fergie, but that he hasn't been quite as skint as he'd have you believe, and certainly not to the point that he should constantly whip up the same old excuse about lack of money.

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871057#msg871057 date=1242809806]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871052#msg871052 date=1242809587]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871038#msg871038 date=1242809006]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg870988#msg870988 date=1242807077]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg870920#msg870920 date=1242800688]
I've just posted this on another forum in reply to some Manc twat but yes, agree with Wizard's & Ryan's sentiments.

Liverpool - To challenge United, Arsenal and Chelsea Rafa had to build the team incrementaly, so yes, buy 5 players and 2 years later sell 3 of them and buy 2 better ones etc. To get to the stage we are at now ... sell one buy a better one.

Everyone makes mistakes in the transfer market, United are not immune - Veron at 30M ???

Tompkins article I had forgotten but yes, valid points :

Current Value of their squads (fees paid not player valuations)

Chelsea £207m
Manchester United £206m*
Spurs £188m
Manchester City £140m
Liverpool £127m

(*£226m if Carlos Tevez's deal made permanent, given that it is initially a unique two-year £10m agreement, and very different from 99% of transfer deals. Effectively United are winning games with a £30m player.)

If you want to see the spending power each team has then just examine the players in the squad that *cost* over e.g. 15M (I'm using this number because if I chose 20M then Liverpool don't have any players since Torres was 18M + add ons !) :

Man United : Hargreaves (17M), Ferdinand (30M), Nani (15M+), Anderson (15M+), Rooney (28M), Berbatov (31M), Tevez (see above), Carrick (18.6M)

Liverpool : Masherano (18M), Torres (20M) .... the next most expensive player was Babel at 11M.

Is it clicking yet ?
[/quote]

Rafa has had plenty to spend. Net or gross, whichever way you look at it, he's spent about the same as Fergie. Froggy, all those figures show is that Fergie has bought more expensive players but less of them, whilst Rafa has done the opposite.

This whole money issue has been done to death. Rafa has been backed to the point that he really should not be using money as an excuse.
[/quote]

You're wrong mate.  All those quotes on Rafa's spends concentrate on comparisons with his time at Liverpool ... and not what United had already spent before he arrived. It seems that is all water under the bridge and not worthy of consideration. Which is absurd.  You can't look at those figures and tell me we have spent the same - because we clearly haven't even if Rafa had bought 50 other players !
[/quote]


Take a look at the figures in this post. He's hardly been skint to the point that he can use lack of funds as an excuse.
[/quote]

Look at the value of the squads - tells you all you need to know. It's not that he's been skint but he's had to do an awful lot more with what he's had than United who already had far more than the spine of their team.
[/quote]

When you say 'squad' are you on about his entire squad or starting eleven? With a figure of about £200 mill, i'm guessing you mean the starting eleven. If Fergie spends £220 mill on eleven players, that's what his squad will show as being worth. If Rafa spends £220 mill on twenty players, he can only field eleven, so obviously since each player cost less, his starting eleven will be worth less. Doesn't mean he's had less money to spend, it just means he's spent it differently.

If he's been so skint mate, please explain the figures in the links.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=33626.msg870934#msg870934 date=1242802311]
My Spanish is a bit rusty, but I'm hoping that 'fine-tuning' in Spanish translates to 'pacy, goal-scoring quality player who can play wide or up front'

Either that or 'binning Lucarse'
[/quote]

binning lucas will win us the league?

 

[manwithnoname]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33626.msg871071#msg871071 date=1242810703]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=33626.msg870934#msg870934 date=1242802311]
My Spanish is a bit rusty, but I'm hoping that 'fine-tuning' in Spanish translates to 'pacy, goal-scoring quality player who can play wide or up front'

Either that or 'binning Lucarse'
[/quote]

binning lucas will win us the league?
[/quote]

No, but it will make me happy and also mean that he never plays for us again, which can only be a good thing

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=33626.msg871073#msg871073 date=1242810754]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33626.msg871071#msg871071 date=1242810703]
[quote author=Brendan link=topic=33626.msg870934#msg870934 date=1242802311]
My Spanish is a bit rusty, but I'm hoping that 'fine-tuning' in Spanish translates to 'pacy, goal-scoring quality player who can play wide or up front'

Either that or 'binning Lucarse'
[/quote]

binning lucas will win us the league?
[/quote]

No, but it will make me happy and also mean that he never plays for us again, which can only be a good thing
[/quote]

I've never seen you focus on anyone like you are on lucas not even diouf and momo. ha ha your hatred of him is reaching epic proportions, like how much lex luther hates superman or how much khan hates kirk. here's hoping you don't personally try to kill him.

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871058#msg871058 date=1242809986]
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/article5946946.ece

With the net figures, take into account that had Rafa not fucked up with the Keane transfer and sold him back so quickly, there would be an extra £15 to £20 mill to add on.

Again, i'm not saying that Rafa has had more to spend than Fergie, but that he hasn't been quite as skint as he'd have you believe, and certainly not to the point that he should constantly whip up the same old excuse about lack of money.
[/quote]

I was about to answer when Google Chrome crashed (doesn't happen often, much faster and more stable than FF or IE) so sorry for the lag. I shouldn't have upwards of 80 pages open at a time but I always do !

The links just go on to backup my position (and Rafa's) which is that whilst Rafa has had to totally overhaul our clapped out banger, the F1 car that was United's team just needed it's annual service ! United have spent that money improving one or maximum two key positions each season whilst we have had to incrementally try to improve a whole plethora of weaknesses across the team & squad. Hardly a fair fight.

To have got to where we are now (sustaining a challenge until the next to last week of the season) from finishing 37 points behind is actually quite an achievement that I for one never thought he could muster, given that our spend does not exceed that of United's, and for that I have to hold my hands up.

However, I do agree with you, even though IMO he is justified in his claims, that he would just shut the fuck up.

 

[rubans]

Rafa has also had to bring in at times to move the squad along, players who we know aren't going to the solution but can help us get where we want in the long term. Regardless of how much we spent, look at Man U's closest challengers in Europe in the last 5 yrs, Chelsea and Barcelona. How does our spending compare to theirs??
What Rafa's saying is correct, UTD have spent big money on big players and it has served them well.
We haven't had the team United have had over the last 5yrs, while they finish in the top 2 we have always been competing for the 4th or 3rd place at best. So in theory, we have needed to buy more players for the team while they could concentrate on 1 or 2 big players. Look at last season, they bough two players costing arounc 40 million under 20, both were players for the squad , can Rafa afford to do the same?

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871098#msg871098 date=1242812185]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871058#msg871058 date=1242809986]
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/article5946946.ece

With the net figures, take into account that had Rafa not fucked up with the Keane transfer and sold him back so quickly, there would be an extra £15 to £20 mill to add on.

Again, i'm not saying that Rafa has had more to spend than Fergie, but that he hasn't been quite as skint as he'd have you believe, and certainly not to the point that he should constantly whip up the same old excuse about lack of money.
[/quote]

I was about to answer when Google Chrome crashed (doesn't happen often, much faster and more stable than FF or IE) so sorry for the lag. I shouldn't have upwards of 80 pages open at a time but I always do !

The links just go on to backup my position (and Rafa's) which is that whilst Rafa has had to totally overhaul our clapped out banger, the F1 car that was United's team just needed it's annual service ! United have spent that money improving one or maximum two key positions each season whilst we have had to incrementally try to improve a whole plethora of weaknesses across the team & squad. Hardly a fair fight.

To have got to where we are now (sustaining a challenge until the next to last week of the season) from finishing 37 points behind is actually quite an achievement that I for one never thought he could muster, given that our spend does not exceed that of United's, and for that I have to hold my hands up.

However, I do agree with you, even though IMO he is justified in his claims, that he would just shut the fuck up.


[/quote]


Whilst it was far from great, that clapped out banger of a squad that you mention went on to win the Champions League with only two Rafa signings playing in the starting eleven. He didn't exactly inherit the West Brom squad.

He had Gerrard, Carra, Sami, Didi, Riise, Finnan, Dudek, Cisse. Hardly shite, were they?

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871110#msg871110 date=1242812906]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871098#msg871098 date=1242812185]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871058#msg871058 date=1242809986]
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/article5946946.ece

With the net figures, take into account that had Rafa not fucked up with the Keane transfer and sold him back so quickly, there would be an extra £15 to £20 mill to add on.

Again, i'm not saying that Rafa has had more to spend than Fergie, but that he hasn't been quite as skint as he'd have you believe, and certainly not to the point that he should constantly whip up the same old excuse about lack of money.
[/quote]

I was about to answer when Google Chrome crashed (doesn't happen often, much faster and more stable than FF or IE) so sorry for the lag. I shouldn't have upwards of 80 pages open at a time but I always do !

The links just go on to backup my position (and Rafa's) which is that whilst Rafa has had to totally overhaul our clapped out banger, the F1 car that was United's team just needed it's annual service ! United have spent that money improving one or maximum two key positions each season whilst we have had to incrementally try to improve a whole plethora of weaknesses across the team & squad. Hardly a fair fight.

To have got to where we are now (sustaining a challenge until the next to last week of the season) from finishing 37 points behind is actually quite an achievement that I for one never thought he could muster, given that our spend does not exceed that of United's, and for that I have to hold my hands up.

However, I do agree with you, even though IMO he is justified in his claims, that he would just shut the fuck up.

[/quote]

Whilst it was far from great, that clapped out banger of a squad that you mention went on to win the Champions League with only two Rafa signings playing in the starting eleven. He didn't exactly inherit the West Brom squad.

He had Gerrard, Carra, Sami, Didi, Riise, Finnan, Dudek, Cisse. Hardly shite, were they?

[/quote]

Well you know that the banger / ferrari comparison was a tongue in cheek simile !

And the CL win is acknowledged as a massive over-achievement. Dudek & Didi were gone and Cisse was not of the quality required. Everyone knows the squad needed overhauling. Old ground - no point in revisiting.

 

[gkmacca]

The funny thing is, when we were top, the saying used to be 'it's hard to get there but it's even harder to stay there,' and, although I believed that at the time, I'm not sure I do now. Psychologically it seems tougher to make that first breakthrough. Once you're there the squad players that you already have are more patient, the ones you want to sign are more willing to come, the self-belief gets stronger and stronger, and, of course, the revenue pours in. We're doing well, but it's a hell of a challenge.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871110#msg871110 date=1242812906]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871098#msg871098 date=1242812185]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871058#msg871058 date=1242809986]
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/article5946946.ece

With the net figures, take into account that had Rafa not fucked up with the Keane transfer and sold him back so quickly, there would be an extra £15 to £20 mill to add on.

Again, i'm not saying that Rafa has had more to spend than Fergie, but that he hasn't been quite as skint as he'd have you believe, and certainly not to the point that he should constantly whip up the same old excuse about lack of money.
[/quote]

I was about to answer when Google Chrome crashed (doesn't happen often, much faster and more stable than FF or IE) so sorry for the lag. I shouldn't have upwards of 80 pages open at a time but I always do !

The links just go on to backup my position (and Rafa's) which is that whilst Rafa has had to totally overhaul our clapped out banger, the F1 car that was United's team just needed it's annual service ! United have spent that money improving one or maximum two key positions each season whilst we have had to incrementally try to improve a whole plethora of weaknesses across the team & squad. Hardly a fair fight.

To have got to where we are now (sustaining a challenge until the next to last week of the season) from finishing 37 points behind is actually quite an achievement that I for one never thought he could muster, given that our spend does not exceed that of United's, and for that I have to hold my hands up.

However, I do agree with you, even though IMO he is justified in his claims, that he would just shut the fuck up.


[/quote]


Whilst it was far from great, that clapped out banger of a squad that you mention went on to win the Champions League with only two Rafa signings playing in the starting eleven. He didn't exactly inherit the West Brom squad.

He had Gerrard, Carra, Sami, Didi, Riise, Finnan, Dudek, Cisse. Hardly shite, were they?


[/quote]

gerrard - definately
carra - it was actually rafa that moved him to the center of defense so rafa can take some credit for that.
didi - definately, but it was obvious rafa wanted a holding midfielder with more mobility
sami - definately
finnan - I thought finnan was poor when rafa first arrived only with the competiton of josemi did finann's game step up a gear.
dudek - needed replacing, simple as.
cisse - didn't fit into his plans
riise - year on year decline until utterly rubbish when shipped out.

only three of the above were long term options the rest needed replacing or phasing out.
beyond the above there was next to no strength in depth so the squad needed padding out, admittedly rafa could have gambled on the above and bought specific players for key positions (left/right midfield) a strategem not without risk if the key players already on the books got a long term injury.

truth is the only times in five years I thought rafa missed a trick was morientes instead of nico and pennant bellemy instead of alves of than that I dont have much compliants and in my opinion a new manager needs four seasons to geniunely challenge for the title. sure managers have done it in less but if I were chairman I would give the manager 3 to 4 season to build the squad and to challenge so rafa is pretty much in line with the timescale I personally think managers should have.

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871098#msg871098 date=1242812185]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871058#msg871058 date=1242809986]
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/article5946946.ece

With the net figures, take into account that had Rafa not fucked up with the Keane transfer and sold him back so quickly, there would be an extra £15 to £20 mill to add on.

Again, i'm not saying that Rafa has had more to spend than Fergie, but that he hasn't been quite as skint as he'd have you believe, and certainly not to the point that he should constantly whip up the same old excuse about lack of money.
[/quote]

I was about to answer when Google Chrome crashed (doesn't happen often, much faster and more stable than FF or IE) so sorry for the lag. I shouldn't have upwards of 80 pages open at a time but I always do !

The links just go on to backup my position (and Rafa's) which is that whilst Rafa has had to totally overhaul our clapped out banger, the F1 car that was United's team just needed it's annual service ! United have spent that money improving one or maximum two key positions each season whilst we have had to incrementally try to improve a whole plethora of weaknesses across the team & squad. Hardly a fair fight.

To have got to where we are now (sustaining a challenge until the next to last week of the season) from finishing 37 points behind is actually quite an achievement that I for one never thought he could muster, given that our spend does not exceed that of United's, and for that I have to hold my hands up.

However, I do agree with you, even though IMO he is justified in his claims, that he would just shut the fuck up.


[/quote]

I think that a straight comparison with the bully up the road is unfair toan extent, it's true that Rafa has had a bigger job in re-building the team.

However, it's also a bit of a cop-out.

Instead of just comparing expenditure amounts, we should just look at the actual players bought with the money.

In certain positions (particularly the flanks), Rafa has bought players for average amounts; the excuse is that we can't afford the player that he really wants.

But when that player is abysmal, his only choice is to either dump that player and try yet again with another average player or co-opt an existing player into that position. The first option increases the amount of money wasted; the second weakens the team.

I happen to think that he's actually done pretty well with his transfers.

But perhaps it would have been better for the actual 'rebuilding' process to invest in proven quality instead of forever gambling on average; and if we didnt have the money fo each position, perhaps he could have invested in the most urgent positions and used our remaining squad players to cover the gaps.

For all the talk about how much the Scum have spent, they still have crucial players in that team brought in at very low prices.

Park Ji Sung was 3.5 million, Evra was only slightly more..and how much did Fletcher cost?

None of those players excelled in their first season here, but the drunk bastard stucj with them because he was convinced that the big money spent elsewhere would cover for their deficiencies until they had improved well enough to be considered real first-teamers.

We go on and on about the quality of the 'spine' of the team, but the level of 'average' within the rest of the squad is staggering.

 

[Wilko7]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg870920#msg870920 date=1242800688]
I've just posted this on another forum in reply to some Manc twat but yes, agree with Wizard's & Ryan's sentiments.

Liverpool - To challenge United, Arsenal and Chelsea Rafa had to build the team incrementaly, so yes, buy 5 players and 2 years later sell 3 of them and buy 2 better ones etc. To get to the stage we are at now ... sell one buy a better one.

Everyone makes mistakes in the transfer market, United are not immune - Veron at 30M ???

Tompkins article I had forgotten but yes, valid points :

Current Value of their squads (fees paid not player valuations)

Chelsea £207m
Manchester United £206m*
Spurs £188m
Manchester City £140m
Liverpool £127m

(*£226m if Carlos Tevez's deal made permanent, given that it is initially a unique two-year £10m agreement, and very different from 99% of transfer deals. Effectively United are winning games with a £30m player.)

If you want to see the spending power each team has then just examine the players in the squad that *cost* over e.g. 15M (I'm using this number because if I chose 20M then Liverpool don't have any players since Torres was 18M + add ons !) :

Man United : Hargreaves (17M), Ferdinand (30M), Nani (15M+), Anderson (15M+), Rooney (28M), Berbatov (31M), Tevez (see above), Carrick (18.6M)

Liverpool : Masherano (18M), Torres (20M) .... the next most expensive player was Babel at 11M.Is it clicking yet ?
[/quote]

Alonso was 14m.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=Wilko7 link=topic=33626.msg871131#msg871131 date=1242813966]

Alonso was 14m.
[/quote]

£10.5m wasn't it?

 

[Avmenon]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=33626.msg871135#msg871135 date=1242814154]
[quote author=Wilko7 link=topic=33626.msg871131#msg871131 date=1242813966]

Alonso was 14m.
[/quote]

£10.5m wasn't it?
[/quote]

If I'm not mistaken, the initial amount was 10.7 but with all clauses and add-ons which came into effect later, the fee became 13 million.

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=33626.msg871135#msg871135 date=1242814154]
[quote author=Wilko7 link=topic=33626.msg871131#msg871131 date=1242813966]

Alonso was 14m.
[/quote]

£10.5m wasn't it?
[/quote]

Correct.

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33626.msg871129#msg871129 date=1242813809]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871110#msg871110 date=1242812906]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871098#msg871098 date=1242812185]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871058#msg871058 date=1242809986]
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/article5946946.ece

With the net figures, take into account that had Rafa not fucked up with the Keane transfer and sold him back so quickly, there would be an extra £15 to £20 mill to add on.

Again, i'm not saying that Rafa has had more to spend than Fergie, but that he hasn't been quite as skint as he'd have you believe, and certainly not to the point that he should constantly whip up the same old excuse about lack of money.
[/quote]

I was about to answer when Google Chrome crashed (doesn't happen often, much faster and more stable than FF or IE) so sorry for the lag.  I shouldn't have upwards of 80 pages open at a time but I always do !

The links just go on to backup my position (and Rafa's) which is that whilst Rafa has had to totally overhaul our clapped out banger, the F1 car that was United's team just needed it's annual service !  United have spent that money improving one or maximum two key positions each season whilst we have had to incrementally try to improve a whole plethora of weaknesses across the team & squad.  Hardly a fair fight.

To have got to where we are now (sustaining a challenge until the next to last week of the season) from finishing 37 points behind is actually quite an achievement that I for one never thought he could muster, given that our spend does not exceed that of United's, and for that I have to hold my hands up.

However, I do agree with you, even though IMO he is justified in his claims, that he would just shut the fuck up.


[/quote]


Whilst it was far from great, that clapped out banger of a squad that you mention went on to win the Champions League with only two Rafa signings playing in the starting eleven. He didn't exactly inherit the West Brom squad.

He had Gerrard, Carra, Sami, Didi, Riise, Finnan, Dudek, Cisse. Hardly shite, were they?


[/quote]

gerrard - definately
carra - it was actually rafa that moved him to the center of defense so rafa can take some credit for that.
didi - definately, but it was obvious rafa wanted a holding midfielder with more mobility
sami - definately
finnan - I thought finnan was poor when rafa first arrived only with the competiton of josemi did finann's game step up a gear.
dudek - needed replacing, simple as.
cisse - didn't fit into his plans
riise - year on year decline until utterly rubbish when shipped out.

only three of the above were long term options the rest needed replacing or phasing out.
beyond the above there was next to no strength in depth so the squad needed padding out, admittedly rafa could have gambled on the above and bought specific players for key positions (left/right midfield) a strategem not without risk if the key players already on the books got a long term injury.

truth is the only times in five years I thought rafa missed a trick was morientes instead of nico and pennant bellemy instead of alves of than that I dont have much compliants and in my opinion a new manager needs four seasons to geniunely challenge for the title. sure managers have done it in less but if I were chairman I would give the manager 3 to 4 season to build the squad and to challenge so rafa is pretty much in line with the timescale I personally think managers should have.
[/quote]



Finnan and Riise were better then than our current full backs are now. The point was that he inherited  a shite squad. He didn't.

Of course, it was not as good as Utd's, and so of course it would take more money to fix, but not to the degree that Rafa can constantly call on it as an excuse. He's had plenty to spend. Fact.

 

[Wilko7]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=33626.msg871135#msg871135 date=1242814154]
[quote author=Wilko7 link=topic=33626.msg871131#msg871131 date=1242813966]

Alonso was 14m.
[/quote]

£10.5m wasn't it?
[/quote]

Actually I do believe you're right, Sunny. I normally can remember transfer fees for our players going back to the late seventies and when I thought of Xabi the number 14 popped into my head. I've just realized that it's the number on his back. 🙂

 

[spider-Neil]

it's also worth pointing out with the money rafa has spent he has
a) delivered season on season qualification for the CL
b) progress past the group stages of the CL
c) a CL cup
d) an FA cup
e) a second CL final
f) a title challenge till the penulitimate game of the season.

with expection of manu (who have argubly spent more) and chelsea (who have definately spent more)who has delivered more in a five year period?

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871143#msg871143 date=1242814341]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33626.msg871129#msg871129 date=1242813809]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871110#msg871110 date=1242812906]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871098#msg871098 date=1242812185]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871058#msg871058 date=1242809986]
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/article5946946.ece

With the net figures, take into account that had Rafa not fucked up with the Keane transfer and sold him back so quickly, there would be an extra £15 to £20 mill to add on.

Again, i'm not saying that Rafa has had more to spend than Fergie, but that he hasn't been quite as skint as he'd have you believe, and certainly not to the point that he should constantly whip up the same old excuse about lack of money.
[/quote]

I was about to answer when Google Chrome crashed (doesn't happen often, much faster and more stable than FF or IE) so sorry for the lag. I shouldn't have upwards of 80 pages open at a time but I always do !

The links just go on to backup my position (and Rafa's) which is that whilst Rafa has had to totally overhaul our clapped out banger, the F1 car that was United's team just needed it's annual service ! United have spent that money improving one or maximum two key positions each season whilst we have had to incrementally try to improve a whole plethora of weaknesses across the team & squad. Hardly a fair fight.

To have got to where we are now (sustaining a challenge until the next to last week of the season) from finishing 37 points behind is actually quite an achievement that I for one never thought he could muster, given that our spend does not exceed that of United's, and for that I have to hold my hands up.

However, I do agree with you, even though IMO he is justified in his claims, that he would just shut the fuck up.


[/quote]


Whilst it was far from great, that clapped out banger of a squad that you mention went on to win the Champions League with only two Rafa signings playing in the starting eleven. He didn't exactly inherit the West Brom squad.

He had Gerrard, Carra, Sami, Didi, Riise, Finnan, Dudek, Cisse. Hardly shite, were they?


[/quote]

gerrard - definately
carra - it was actually rafa that moved him to the center of defense so rafa can take some credit for that.
didi - definately, but it was obvious rafa wanted a holding midfielder with more mobility
sami - definately
finnan - I thought finnan was poor when rafa first arrived only with the competiton of josemi did finann's game step up a gear.
dudek - needed replacing, simple as.
cisse - didn't fit into his plans
riise - year on year decline until utterly rubbish when shipped out.

only three of the above were long term options the rest needed replacing or phasing out.
beyond the above there was next to no strength in depth so the squad needed padding out, admittedly rafa could have gambled on the above and bought specific players for key positions (left/right midfield) a strategem not without risk if the key players already on the books got a long term injury.

truth is the only times in five years I thought rafa missed a trick was morientes instead of nico and pennant bellemy instead of alves of than that I dont have much compliants and in my opinion a new manager needs four seasons to geniunely challenge for the title. sure managers have done it in less but if I were chairman I would give the manager 3 to 4 season to build the squad and to challenge so rafa is pretty much in line with the timescale I personally think managers should have.
[/quote]

Finnan and Riise were better then than our current full backs are now. The point was that he inherited a shite squad. He didn't.

Of course, it was not as good as Utd's, and so of course it would take more money to fix, but not to the degree that Rafa can constantly call on it as an excuse. He's had plenty to spend. Fact.
[/quote]

finann at his peak is better than arbeloa is now but arbeloa is quite young and has the potential to get better. riise I thought was plane rubbish so we'll have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871143#msg871143 date=1242814341]
Finnan and Riise were better then than our current full backs are now. The point was that he inherited a shite squad. He didn't.

Of course, it was not as good as Utd's, and so of course it would take more money to fix, but not to the degree that Rafa can constantly call on it as an excuse. He's had plenty to spend. Fact.
[/quote]

We're just going to have to disagree on this one mate. You think that spending slightly less that United since he's been here means we should have overtaken them and won the league. I can't for the life of me see the logic in it. So moving on ...........

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871155#msg871155 date=1242814836]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871143#msg871143 date=1242814341]
Finnan and Riise were better then than our current full backs are now. The point was that he inherited a shite squad. He didn't.

Of course, it was not as good as Utd's, and so of course it would take more money to fix, but not to the degree that Rafa can constantly call on it as an excuse. He's had plenty to spend. Fact.
[/quote]

We're just going to have to disagree on this one mate. You think that spending slightly less that United since he's been here means we should have overtaken them and won the league. I can't for the life of me see the logic in it. So moving on ...........
[/quote]

Can you show me where I said that, mate?

All I have pointed out is that Rafa would have us believe that he has been some sort of pauper in the transfer market and that he's had tens of millions of pounds less to spend than Fergie. It's bollocks. The figures don't lie. Now, we can sit and debate whether the squad he inherited was crap or not, or whether he had spent the money wisely or not for hours. But what can't be ignored is the fact that Rafa has had plenty to spend, and certainly hasn't been as far behind Utd in the spending stakes as he would have us believe. That was my original point. If you disagree, then you'll have to show me the figures that show how he is so far behind Fergie in the spending stakes. Good luck with that one...

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33626.msg871146#msg871146 date=1242814370]
it's also worth pointing out with the money rafa has spent he has
a) delivered season on season qualification for the CL
b) progress past the group stages of the CL
c) a CL cup
d) an FA cup
e) a second CL final
f) a title challenge till the penulitimate game of the season.

with expection of manu (who have argubly spent more) and chelsea (who have definately spent more)who has delivered more in a five year period?
[/quote]

I think we're talking about different things here, Spidey. I'm not questioning Rafa's track record, just his claims that he's not had anywhere near what Utd have had to spend.

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871222#msg871222 date=1242818026]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871155#msg871155 date=1242814836]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871143#msg871143 date=1242814341]
Finnan and Riise were better then than our current full backs are now. The point was that he inherited a shite squad. He didn't.

Of course, it was not as good as Utd's, and so of course it would take more money to fix, but not to the degree that Rafa can constantly call on it as an excuse. He's had plenty to spend. Fact.
[/quote]

We're just going to have to disagree on this one mate. You think that spending slightly less that United since he's been here means we should have overtaken them and won the league. I can't for the life of me see the logic in it. So moving on ...........
[/quote]

Can you show me where I said that, mate?

All I have pointed out is that Rafa would have us believe that he has been some sort of pauper in the transfer market and that he's had tens of millions of pounds less to spend than Fergie. It's bollocks. The figures don't lie. Now, we can sit and debate whether the squad he inherited was crap or not, or whether he had spent the money wisely or not for hours. But what can't be ignored is the fact that Rafa has had plenty to spend, and certainly hasn't been as far behind Utd in the spending stakes as he would have us believe. That was my original point. If you disagree, then you'll have to show me the figures that show how he is so far behind Fergie in the spending stakes. Good luck with that one...
[/quote]

It was the figures from the link you posted to The Times. Can't remember offhand but something like United 220M to Liverpool 212M . Maybe you were pointing out something else in the article ? I didn't read through the whole thing.

For the rest I thought I was clear that IMO equal spending doesn't equal parity on the field when you are playing catch up !

 

[ibromurph]

Since we're on the spend issue here (again). It's worth pointing out that United, almost unnoticed, invested upto 17m in January on another 2 kids in Zoran Tosic and Adem Ljajic. That's the sort of spend power, where if it all goes wrong no one will mention, that I think Rafa is referring to. Whereas if it was us, we'd be expecting/hoping them to be the 2nd coming of Maradona by now.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871230#msg871230 date=1242818172]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33626.msg871146#msg871146 date=1242814370]
it's also worth pointing out with the money rafa has spent he has
a) delivered season on season qualification for the CL
b) progress past the group stages of the CL
c) a CL cup
d) an FA cup
e) a second CL final
f) a title challenge till the penulitimate game of the season.

with expection of manu (who have argubly spent more) and chelsea (who have definately spent more)who has delivered more in a five year period?
[/quote]

I think we're talking about different things here, Spidey. I'm not questioning Rafa's track record, just his claims that he's not had anywhere near what Utd have had to spend.
[/quote]

rafa has had more money to spend but he has had to make it strecth further and have less margin for error than manu.

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871238#msg871238 date=1242818424]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871222#msg871222 date=1242818026]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871155#msg871155 date=1242814836]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871143#msg871143 date=1242814341]
Finnan and Riise were better then than our current full backs are now. The point was that he inherited a shite squad. He didn't.

Of course, it was not as good as Utd's, and so of course it would take more money to fix, but not to the degree that Rafa can constantly call on it as an excuse. He's had plenty to spend. Fact.
[/quote]

We're just going to have to disagree on this one mate. You think that spending slightly less that United since he's been here means we should have overtaken them and won the league. I can't for the life of me see the logic in it. So moving on ...........
[/quote]

Can you show me where I said that, mate?

All I have pointed out is that Rafa would have us believe that he has been some sort of pauper in the transfer market and that he's had tens of millions of pounds less to spend than Fergie. It's bollocks. The figures don't lie. Now, we can sit and debate whether the squad he inherited was crap or not, or whether he had spent the money wisely or not for hours. But what can't be ignored is the fact that Rafa has had plenty to spend, and certainly hasn't been as far behind Utd in the spending stakes as he would have us believe. That was my original point. If you disagree, then you'll have to show me the figures that show how he is so far behind Fergie in the spending stakes. Good luck with that one...
[/quote]

It was the figures from the link you posted to The Times. Can't remember offhand but something like United 220M to Liverpool 212M . Maybe you were pointing out something else in the article ? I didn't read through the whole thing.

For the rest I thought I was clear that IMO equal spending doesn't equal parity on the field when you are playing catch up !
[/quote]

Yeh, but where have I said that I think we should be overtaking them and winning the league as you suggested? I haven't.

All I have been saying is that Rafa has not been quite as skint as he makes out. He bangs on about how Utd have all these players worth tens of millions of pounds and makes out as though he's been a pauper in the transfer market. It's a worn, lame excuse.

His gross spend is only £9 mill behind. I know net spend is important, but gross spend is what he has actually gone out and spent on players. He's had only £9 mill less than Fergie to spend on players but has spent it differently.

 

[foureyes]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33626.msg871247#msg871247 date=1242819118]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871230#msg871230 date=1242818172]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=33626.msg871146#msg871146 date=1242814370]
it's also worth pointing out with the money rafa has spent he has
a) delivered season on season qualification for the CL
b) progress past the group stages of the CL
c) a CL cup
d) an FA cup
e) a second CL final
f) a title challenge till the penulitimate game of the season.

with expection of manu (who have argubly spent more) and chelsea (who have definately spent more)who has delivered more in a five year period?
[/quote]

I think we're talking about different things here, Spidey. I'm not questioning Rafa's track record, just his claims that he's not had anywhere near what Utd have had to spend.
[/quote]

rafa has had more money to spend but he has had to make it strecth further and have less margin for error than manu.
[/quote]

That's all that matters in the context of what i'm saying. I'm not denying that he has had to rebuild somewhat more than Manu, but he has had more money than he would wish us to believe.

 

[Frogfish]

[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871251#msg871251 date=1242819403]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871238#msg871238 date=1242818424]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871222#msg871222 date=1242818026]
[quote author=Frogfish link=topic=33626.msg871155#msg871155 date=1242814836]
[quote author=foureyes link=topic=33626.msg871143#msg871143 date=1242814341]
Finnan and Riise were better then than our current full backs are now. The point was that he inherited a shite squad. He didn't.

Of course, it was not as good as Utd's, and so of course it would take more money to fix, but not to the degree that Rafa can constantly call on it as an excuse. He's had plenty to spend. Fact.
[/quote]

We're just going to have to disagree on this one mate. You think that spending slightly less that United since he's been here means we should have overtaken them and won the league. I can't for the life of me see the logic in it. So moving on ...........
[/quote]

Can you show me where I said that, mate?

All I have pointed out is that Rafa would have us believe that he has been some sort of pauper in the transfer market and that he's had tens of millions of pounds less to spend than Fergie. It's bollocks. The figures don't lie. Now, we can sit and debate whether the squad he inherited was crap or not, or whether he had spent the money wisely or not for hours. But what can't be ignored is the fact that Rafa has had plenty to spend, and certainly hasn't been as far behind Utd in the spending stakes as he would have us believe. That was my original point. If you disagree, then you'll have to show me the figures that show how he is so far behind Fergie in the spending stakes. Good luck with that one...
[/quote]

It was the figures from the link you posted to The Times. Can't remember offhand but something like United 220M to Liverpool 212M . Maybe you were pointing out something else in the article ? I didn't read through the whole thing.

For the rest I thought I was clear that IMO equal spending doesn't equal parity on the field when you are playing catch up !
[/quote]

Yeh, but where have I said that I think we should be overtaking them and winning the league as you suggested? I haven't.

All I have been saying is that Rafa has not been quite as skint as he makes out. He bangs on about how Utd have all these players worth tens of millions of pounds and makes out as though he's been a pauper in the transfer market. It's a worn, lame excuse.

His gross spend is only £9 mill behind. I know net spend is important, but gross spend is what he has actually gone out and spent on players. He's had only £9 mill less than Fergie to spend on players but has spent it differently.
[/quote]

How can you not get that differently is because United had a 50 yd start in a 100 yd race ?

As to where you said we should be overtaking them - (your quote) :-

Rafa has had plenty to spend. Net or gross, whichever way you look at it, he's spent about the same as Fergie. Froggy, all those figures show is that Fergie has bought more expensive players but less of them, whilst Rafa has done the opposite.

This whole money issue has been done to death. Rafa has been backed to the point that he really should not be using money as an excuse.

What else can be concluded from that statement ? Should he have another more valid reason for not winning the league?

The only reason that excuse is used is because people, similar to your good self, are saying that he has had enough money so should be delivering the title by now. I still wish he would shut up though.

 

[Frogfish]

Foureyes - looking through your replies to others it seems (to me) that your statement on Rafa's spending says one thing and the implication (to me) seems clear - however your opinion is maybe somewhat different ?

That is difficult to reconcile !