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She's dead

Again these are myths. During the last days of the Labour Government in 1979 the unemployment rate was 5.4% and had been around that for several years previously, during 1981 under the Tories, at it's peak it was 11.9%; yeah more than double.

Also the number of strikes peaked in 1976 under Labour at 6514 lost days per month, under Thatcher they peaked at almost double that at around 11800 lost days in 1981.

There is an argument that our industries were massively overmanned and badly lacking in the necessary productivity; which must have contributed to terminal financial problems they were afflicted with. That would in itself partly explain why unemployment was so low; people employed to do almost nothing.

Surely it's common sense that strikes increased under Thatcher, since she was intent on curtailing their influence and they were fighting back?
 
Well, I don't know if it's myths exactly; our industries were in trouble and something had to change. And there's no revisionism needed regarding the fact that nowhere near enough was done to alleviate the devastation caused to our former industrial heartlands and the people therein. In fact, was anything truly attempted at all to revive these places, apart from the inward investment of the foreign car makers to the NE and Midlands?

Also, were there people around in the UK during the 1970s who understood the German model and were advocating adopting it in Britain?

Ironically yes, couldn't help but understand it as we were on the inside, helping to design their cars at the time, still are. They thought our cars were so crap they bought the company and became the paymasters.

Really it was industrial relations that were the key. So if you don't want to engage unions - what do you do? Destroy the industry...problem solved.
 
Ah, but you appear to be picking up the pundamentals!

But seriously - everyone knows about the unions and blah blah blah, I genuinely haven't seen a lot of analysis that considers the North Sea Oil or heard many people discuss it as a factor in the economic recovery, when clearly it played a part

That's because it would be inconvenient.
 
1. She supported the retention of capital punishment
2. She destroyed the country's manufacturing industry
3. She voted against the relaxation of divorce laws
4. She abolished free milk for schoolchildren ("Margaret Thatcher, Milk Snatcher")
5. She supported more freedom for business (and look how that turned out)
6. She gained support from the National Front in the 1979 election by pandering to the fears of immigration
7. She gerrymandered local authorities by forcing through council house sales, at the same time preventing councils from spending the money they got for selling houses on building new houses (spending on social housing dropped by 67% in her premiership)
8. She was responsible for 3.6 million unemployed - the highest figure and the highest proportion of the workforce in history and three times the previous government. Massaging of the figures means that the figure was closer to 5 million
9. She ignored intelligence about Argentinian preparations for the invasion of the Falkland Islands and scrapped the only Royal Navy presence in the islands
10. The poll tax
11. She presided over the closure of 150 coal mines; we are now crippled by the cost of energy, having to import expensive coal from abroad
12. She compared her "fight" against the miners to the Falklands War
13. She privatised state monopolies and created the corporate greed culture that we've been railing against for the last 5 years
14. She introduced the gradual privatisation of the NHS
15. She introduced financial deregulation in a way that turned city institutions into avaricious money pits
16. She pioneered the unfailing adoration and unquestioning support of the USA
17. She allowed the US to place nuclear missiles on UK soil, under US control
18. Section 28
19. She opposed anti-apartheid sanctions against South Africa and described Nelson Mandela as "that grubby little terrorist"
20. She support the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia and sent the SAS to train their soldiers
21. She allowed the US to bomb Libya in 1986, against the wishes of more than 2/3 of the population
22. She opposed the reunification of Germany
23. She invented Quangos
24. She increased VAT from 8% to 17.5%
25. She had the lowest approval rating of any post-war Prime Minister
26. Her post-PM job? Consultant to Philip Morris tobacco at $250,000 a year, plus $50,000 per speech
27. The Al Yamamah contract
28. She opposed the indictment of Chile's General Pinochet
29. Social unrest under her leadership was higher than at any time since the General Strike
30. She presided over interest rates increasing to 15%
31. BSE
32. She presided over 2 million manufacturing job losses in the 79-81 recession
33. She opposed the inclusion of Eire in the Northern Ireland peace process
34. She supported sanctions-busting arms deals with South Africa
35. Cecil Parkinson, Alan Clark, David Mellor, Jeffrey Archer, Jonathan Aitkin
36. Crime rates doubled under Thatcher
37. Black Wednesday – Britain withdraws from the ERM and the pound is devalued. Cost to Britain - £3.5 billion; profit for George Soros - £1 billion
38. Poverty doubled while she opposed a minimum wage
39. She privatised public services, claiming at the time it would increase public ownership. Most are now owned either by foreign governments (EDF) or major investment houses. The profits don’t now accrue to the taxpayer, but to foreign or institutional shareholders.
40. She cut 75% of funding to museums, galleries and other sources of education
41. In the Thatcher years the top 10% of earners received almost 50% of the tax remissions
42. 21.9% inflation

43. She was instrumental in the Hillsborough cover up because her government needed the police to be a partisan force, particularly for the miners' strike and other industrial troubles
44.She was a cunt.
 
Ah, but you appear to be picking up the pundamentals!

But seriously - everyone knows about the unions and blah blah blah, I genuinely haven't seen a lot of analysis that considers the North Sea Oil or heard many people discuss it as a factor in the economic recovery, when clearly it played a part

I'm trying to find something I read yesterday (by some award winning economist) about how the Tories were boosted by North Sea oil but "blew it" and we lost our industrial base.
 
Ironically yes, couldn't help but understand it as we were on the inside, helping to design their cars at the time, still are. They thought our cars were so crap they bought the company and became the paymasters.

Really it was industrial relations that were the key. So if you don't want to engage unions - what do you do? Destroy the industry...problem solved.

I don't understand what you mean about the cars, sorry. Care to expand?

Regarding the unions. If they were prepared to take down the Labour government (i.e their own people) of Callaghan by putting the country through that "winter of discontent", what hope was there of a Conservative government ever finding common ground with those same unions?
 
So, we have the majority of people against thatcher. All of whom live in the north.

Meanwhile we have everyone in the south defending her, at least a lit more so. The only exceptions I can remember are Andy & Pesam, Andy had first hand experience of the north under her (may have lived there at the time, I dunno), I dunno why Pesam is an exception, maybe he will tell us he lived darn sarf during the time.

I'm from the north. My mum is from Liverpool.
 
I don't understand what you mean about the cars, sorry. Care to expand?

Regarding the unions. If they were prepared to take down the Labour government (i.e their own people) of Callaghan by putting the country through that "winter of discontent", what hope was there of a Conservative government ever finding common ground with those same unions?

Yeah, you mentioned foreign car makers investing. They did, came to terms with the workers, better training, better pay. Took the designs, updated manufacturing equipment and made cars and profits.

Ironically it was unofficial action, often without the consent or support of unions; that led to the "Winter of Discontent". The unions didn't have control.
 
Jexy. I havnt always seen eye to eye with you in the past. But fuck me you have made my heart sing this past few days.
I'm LOVING your work.

Sorry if I was ever a cunt to you. You're allll-fucking-right.
 
First she came for the milk. Then she came for the mines. Then she ran out of things to come for, so she went after the football fans arranging recreational punch ups and acid house.

It might sound unlikely in an age where there are a pair of decks and TV screens showing Sky Sports in every pub, but if you wanted to go toe to toe with the establishment at the tail-end of the Thatcher years, the fast track to getting filled in by the police was to watch football or listen to a series of repetitive records with the intention of dancing.

If you were looking for a measure of how the country has adjusted since Thatcher's reign, you could do worse than consider how two constants of the modern mainstream – football and electronic music – were once painted as folk devils by a regime fast running out of new things to point its police horses at.

Granted, football fans had been under few illusions about where they stood in the perceived scheme of things since the 70s, and anyone with industrial or union connections would have been aware of Tory policy well before Thatcher came to power in '79. But for anyone younger, and especially anyone younger and southern, the harshness of the establishment’s war on the twin evils of football and dance music came as something of a surprise.


Photo by Gavin Watson.

It wasn’t till I fled a party in Dalston (yes, we had Dalston back then, too) in 1989 that I felt it firsthand. The motivation for my hasty departure was the sudden entrance of a group of cops based at Stoke Newington Police Station who were notorious in the local area for their thuggery. They'd come in, take the numbers off their uniforms and break things up about as violently as you can without firearms, swinging for male and female alike. Say what you like about violence – and this is what the state often forgets when it chooses to apply it – but it doesn’t half focus the mind. If you were looking for a way to galvanise some of the last non-pissed off people in the country (white, middle-class men on strong, euphoric drugs, in my case) then sending the Territorial Support Group onto the dancefloor was an efficient way to go about it.

However, until the law actually turned up to do the truncheon two-step, you'd be hard pressed to find many people who genuinely cared about the government despatching them. The photographer Gavin Watson – whose book Raving '89 documented, funnily enough, acid house raves in the late 80s and early 90s – agreed: "Politics became superfluous during rave. All of the bullshit that Thatcher was coming out with started to fall on deaf ears, because we were so wrapped up in the culture that we just didn't have time to care about politics."


A collection of Boy's Own covers.

Cymon Eckel, a co-founder of iconic acid house and football casual culture fanzine, Boy's Own, has similar thoughts to Gavin. "The kind of tragic thing about rave was that, unlike many other musical scenes, it was completely depoliticised," he explained. "I suppose you could say that people maybe wanted to escape the negativity of politics at the time, or that they'd just fucking given up."

Either way, what followed was an object lesson in how to turn hedonists into heretics. "Because a few people had the power to assemble thousands of young people with a phonecall, the government thought there was a political angle to it when there wasn't," says Andrew Weatherall, another co-founder of Boy's Own and now one of the most pivotal figures of British dance music history. "The government, rather than the people actually involved, started to politicise it by having the police follow them and film them, and by asking questions about it in Parliament."


Photo by Gavin Watson.

The Conservatives and the media propagating their outrage were, in Gavin Watson's words, "caught with their pants down – they were five years behind when they first even started to address it". In what was arguably the best example of how uninformed – and, apparently, averse to basic research – the media were when it came to rave and acid house, one paper reported finding "ecstasy wrappers" littering one post-party dancefloor. Watson elaborated: "Their attempts at propaganda were just laughable – that total sense of powerlessness. We ended up going to raves and just laughing at the government and their 'ecstasy wrappers'."

The writers giving the rave scene a hard time in the press weren't averse to the lure of the assignment either: "Yeah, course there were journalists there!" laughs Weatherall. "There were people working on those tabloids, we knew who they were. Some of them would come to the parties."


Photo by Stuart Griffiths.

Prior to the introduction of seating, football – like acid house – could pitch you into a crowd that might seem to be out of control from the outside. But what could feel euphoric to participate in became a spectacle to be feared. As people died at football and spurious narratives spun through the media suggesting the victims had only themselves to blame, so acid house and its associated pastimes were painted as activities whose participants must be protected from themselves. Or, failing that, clobbered.

I appreciate that this might be tough to imagine in an age when Stewart Downing is permitted to DJ in his spare time, but there was a time when plugging in a record player in an abandoned building brought a police response more appropriate to the assembly of a nuclear device. Whatever rattled the establishment about rave, in their own warped way they had a point. It was dangerous.

Before “repetitive beats” – as the 1994 Criminal Justice Act would come to define them – went mainstream, the shortage of places to hear that music meant that, when people did gather, you had people of every kind listening to music of no fixed genre, under the influence of drugs that dis-inhibited them without recourse to violence. Serial football heads of the day often talk of their dilated amazement as men who would have fought one another for pleasure in the mid-80s bound each other up in loving, fraternal embraces and dissolved into the great perspiring mass of possibilities that unfolded at around 120bpm as the decade drew to a close.


Photo by Gavin Watson.

I’m not one for elaborate conspiracy theories, but even the most simplistic divide and conquer analysis suggests that, from a ruling class point of view, everyone – people of all races, backgrounds or football allegiance – getting along like that wasn’t something that could be entertained for too long. At least without sponsorship.

"Rave was more about unity," explained Watson. "And, unlike other scenes, there weren't really any faces from the scene for society to grab on to and scapegoat, which must have been frustrating for the government and media at the time. Because it was kind of this big, inclusive faceless mass, I also feel like the social pressures that got people seeking a release from rave did a lot of good things to make the racial divide less of a divide."

Although having to deal with police relentlessly busting up the fun was undoubtedly a downer, Eckel can see the positives in the Thatcher government's war on youth culture. "Where Thatcher created that dearth of culture with her policies, and filled the high streets with brands, conformity and mundanity, what you got is young kids looking to fill that void, which can only be a good thing."

Weatherall agrees, citing the politicisation of the acid house rave scene as something that, in many ways, actually helped it: "When politicians act like they're morally outraged and ask questions in parliament, they get kudos by being seen to be ‘upholders of morals’. But the people that are breaking the morals, the youth cult, they also get kudos, because young people like to shock. Shock sells records and sells tickets to acid house parties. Youth culture is very symbiotic; the man and youth cult are two sides of the same coin, really."


Photo by Gavin Watson.

And what happened next? Well, things happened fast, and the forces of darkness got fiendish. More effective than any legislation would be assimilation. First came the 1990 World Cup, New Order’s England theme and soon the terraces and the Technics would be safe for everyone. Now, Manchester City are doing the "Harlem Shake" for Comic Relief.

But I am happy, proud even, to say that many of the good things I’ve been involved with since – numerous relationships that abide to this day and much of what I consider to be the better side of my nature – were formed under those forces. It seemed at the time that any resistance offered to Thatcher's political scene-smashing was transforming what might otherwise have been a matter of mere musical taste into something tangible and strong.

As the figurehead of that era passes, it seems that even if you aren't having the best time of your life every weekend in a field with thousands of other people, your right to party remains intact – over and above even some of the more ancient civil liberties that have been steadily eroded since the battle of the beats was apparently won.
 
43. She was instrumental in the Hillsborough cover up because her government needed the police to be a partisan force, particularly for the miners' strike and other industrial troubles
44.She was a cunt.

45. Her southern-centric policies set Scotland, and to a lesser the other regions and home countries, on a trajectory towards independence. It's quite possible that history will judge her as the person who destroyed the union and the UK.
46. She presided over a Government that allowed, if not encouraged, human rights abuses in her own country.
 
Oh yeah...raves... remember the criminal justice bill and that clause about repetitive beats?

The autistic old cuntbag may as well have simply outlawed fun.
 
Its interesting because most of us (British) come at it from a socio/economic/class standpoint as obviously thats what affected us growing up in the 70's and 80's (and on into today of course).
But ultimately she supported Pinochet, supported the Khmer Rouge, sold arms to Saudi Arabia, ignored sanctions to trade with Apartheid South Africa, she allowed American nuclear weopons to reside in our country, she traded arms to Iraq, she supported continued division in Ireland and refused to allow the hunger strikers political status. I mean she was just a fucking vile horrible crooked despot. If she came from Uganda or Kazakhstan she would be roundly vilified around the globe, she would be tried for fucking war crimes.

But then she was old. Bless her.
 
Its interesting because most of us (British) come at it from a socio/economic/class standpoint as obviously thats what affected us growing up in the 70's and 80's (and on into today of course).
But ultimately she supported Pinochet, supported the Khmer Rouge, sold arms to Saudi Arabia, ignored sanctions to trade with Apartheid South Africa, she allowed American nuclear weopons to reside in our country, she traded arms to Iraq, she supported continued division in Ireland and refused to allow the hunger strikers political status. I mean she was just a fucking vile horrible crooked despot. If she came from Uganda or Kazakhstan she would be roundly vilified around the globe, she would be tried for fucking war crimes.

But then she was old. Bless her.

BUT RAVES. YOU FORGOT ABOUT THE TECHNO
 
Some of that goes a long way off the rails. Labour as well as Tory govts.have sold arms to the Saudis and Iraq, it was on her watch that the Anglo-Irish peace process actually started, and she was right to allow US nuclear weapons to be stationed here - apart from being the only sensible decision in the circs.which prevailed at the time, it was also pivotal in creating the conditions for the downfall of totalitarian Communism in Eastern Europe later. Not everything she did was wrong, and it undermines the very real case against her to pretend otherwise.
 
Jexy. I havnt always seen eye to eye with you in the past. But fuck me you have made my heart sing this past few days.
I'm LOVING your work.

Sorry if I was ever a cunt to you. You're allll-fucking-right.


No worries. I've a chip on my shoulder at times, no doubt forged during that time. I'll never forget my crestfallen Mum as her house filled up with my Dad, me and my brother all skilled engineers on decent pay, now unemployed, broke and kicking our heels. Ended up with us all going our own different ways to chase work (not in industry obviously, they killed that). Same for my mates, my Town; the fucking region in fact.

Industries, skills and traditions smashed because of dogma, along with many others I'd never been on strike or considered myself 'the enemy within'. So I won't forget and neither will millions of others; despite the gloss the media will put on Thatcher. Things aren't better either, just different.
 
@Squonk - excellent article. And it's true - acid house took people away from all the shite that Maggie and her denizens spewed out in the 80s. Everyone was equal and no-one gave a fuck. They were great times.
 
@Squonk - excellent article. And it's true - acid house took people away from all the shite that Maggie and her denizens spewed out in the 80s. Everyone was equal and no-one gave a fuck. They were great times.

@Squonk in fact that and Liverpool FC were about the only saving graces from the Thatcher era and she tried to take as much of that away from us as she could. The fucking spiteful auld boot.
 
I had my milk taken away by Maggie, so that's roughly my age, and I can just about remember her being in power, but obviously as I'm not a historian I can't remember too much about the politics of the day as I was only a child (it seems most of you are about 40-50yrs old and were directly effected).
I liked Maggie, and having a prime minister with that sort of determined attitude, I'm not saying I agree with everything I'm reading that she stood for, but I like her as a woman and as a leader.

The only thing I've learned from all this is that I've changed my mind on the alex ferguson situation. I've always been steadfast in the opinion that I would celebrate when he died as I loathe the man. But after seeing how much of a cunt people are making of themselves celebrating someone's death, I've decided that I won't be celebrating someone's death as it's a pretty obnoxious thing to do based on football or politics. Granted if someone murders someone in your family or something, but over football, or if you don't agree with some of their policies, it's pretty pathetic.
 
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