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Shut the back door

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doctor_mac

doctor_mac

My cowboy name is Garland Justice
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So according to the stats we are conceding considerably more good chances this season than last year, and the main means of this happening is every team exploiting the space left by Alexander-Arnold. Much less common is that people are exploiting space in the left FB position, which I assume is partly because most teams have a majority of right footed players and the ball behind A-A is the easier one to play, but also I suppose, because teams fancy their chances of getting the better of A-A, and because they know that Salah provides less defensive support for A-A.

The question is, how do we resolve this? I know this hasn't cost us yet, but I think that's been partly due to good fortune on our part. Obviously A-A's delivery has been a key aspect of our attacking threat and we would like to keep that, but personally I'm sick of teams getting an easy attacking outlet. How do we shut this down? Anyone else think this isn't really a big worry?
 
doctor_mac said:
So according to the stats we are conceding considerably more good chances this season than last year, and the main means of this happening is every team exploiting the space left by Alexander-Arnold. Much less common is that people are exploiting space in the left FB position, which I assume is partly because most teams have a majority of right footed players and the ball behind A-A is the easier one to play, but also I suppose, because teams fancy their chances of getting the better of A-A, and because they know that Salah provides less defensive support for A-A.

The question is, how do we resolve this? I know this hasn't cost us yet, but I think that's been partly due to good fortune on our part. Obviously A-A's delivery has been a key aspect of our attacking threat and we would like to keep that, but personally I'm sick of teams getting an easy attacking outlet. How do we shut this down? Anyone else think this isn't really a big worry?
Click to expand...
Bringing on Gomez as a fifth defenders has worked so far.
 
Every system has a theoretical counter, and you can't talk about what ours is, without talking about what that weakness allows us to do in attack.

The problem in the last game for instance, was that we didn't get enough compensation for that weakness. TAA had lots of the ball, and good positions up the pitch, but he didn't use it. It gets even worse if he or anyone else gives the ball up when we're in transition. If TAA plays sharper, then what he offers going forward is more than adequate compensation. If our forwards are sharper, it's more than adequate as well.
 
Farkmaster said:
Every system has a theoretical counter, and you can't talk about what ours is, without talking about what that weakness allows us to do in attack.

The problem in the last game for instance, was that we didn't get enough compensation for that weakness. TAA had lots of the ball, and good positions up the pitch, but he didn't use it. It gets even worse if he or anyone else gives the ball up when we're in transition. If TAA plays sharper, then what he offers going forward is more than adequate compensation. If our forwards are sharper, it's more than adequate as well.
Click to expand...


I did talk about what that weakness allows us to do in attack. However, I think there must be a better means of having that strength without having such a clear and obvious weakness that has been targeted by almost very opponent. It hasn't cost us a game yet, but it has cost us at least one goal from my hazy memory and quite a few clear chances conceded.
 
Farkmaster said:
Every system has a theoretical counter, and you can't talk about what ours is, without talking about what that weakness allows us to do in attack.

The problem in the last game for instance, was that we didn't get enough compensation for that weakness. TAA had lots of the ball, and good positions up the pitch, but he didn't use it. It gets even worse if he or anyone else gives the ball up when we're in transition. If TAA plays sharper, then what he offers going forward is more than adequate compensation. If our forwards are sharper, it's more than adequate as well.
Click to expand...

If the weakness is TAA’s role in the team, why are we worse than last season defensively given that he played much of last in the same way?

Loss of Allison?
Certain players not playing at the same level?
Something else?
 
Is it because Henderson has been pushing up the field more? Do we need him to stay deeper when A-A pushes forward?
 
I think we've been conceding possession more often, and trent hasn't been on form, but mostly the first.
 
Part of the reason is teams will always favour winning a long ball off Matip over VVD.

I don't think we should ever sacrifice the attacking width the fullbacks provide. It's too intergral to our game and scoring goals. I don't see the need for any changes, TBH. You could maybe consider restricting one of the midfield three if it started to prove costly, but I firmly believe Roberston and TAA should not alter their game.
 
The answer is obvious but it won’t happen.

Start Gomez instead of Matip. His pace covers the gap left by TAA better.
 
Dreambeliever said:
The answer is obvious but it won’t happen.

Start Gomez instead of Matip. His pace covers the gap left by TAA better.
Click to expand...
Come to think of it...yeah...
But it has to be last season Gomez not the one that started this season.
 
doctor_mac said:
That's a good suggestion even though Matip has been tremendous.
Click to expand...

Matip has done very well but that’s our biggest weakness and before Gomez got injured we looked incredibly solid at the back.

Matip catches the eye with tackles, interceptions and those runs forward but also gets caught out positional loads. Gomez avoids having to look as good by not getting caught in the first. He’s not perfect but he’s a better partner for VVD
 
doctor_mac said:
Is it because Henderson has been pushing up the field more? Do we need him to stay deeper when A-A pushes forward?
Click to expand...

I think that's part of it, with Trent bombing on, Matip being to more adventurous CB and Salah hardly ever tracking back it means we are easier to attack down that side. Its just logical that opponents will target that area. How do we counter the counter?

On Saturday it was noticeable that after the first few skirmishes Hendo started dropping into RB position once Trent crossed halfway with Trent effectively playing as a winger when we had posession. Long term if thats the plan Im not sure if Hendo is the best player to do that, Milner is better defensively and is better suited to an auxiliary FB role.
 
Modo said:
Come to think of it...yeah...
But it has to be last season Gomez not the one that started this season.
Click to expand...
You don't get 'last season' without playing him into form.

I don't get how people don't understand that players need a fair few games to get even close to their best after injuries.

The problem with the need for perfection that city's pace has set is that normally you'd play those players back into form, but we can't risk it.

I suspect klopp will play Gomez tonight, but it depends how much of an aerial threat he thinks they'll be, as Matip & VVD have a phenomenonal record beating aerial threats.

Regards the main point, I actually think we encourage teams to attack down that side, so I don't see it as a problem.
 
I think we need to be better in possession, we don't use the ball well enough and give it away cheaply with countless over hit passes.

It's not a real concern for me as we still have the best defense in the league so we must be doing something right.

Not sure how many goals Trent has been at fault for? Maybe only Newcastle?

The Soton was an obvious keeper error, other than that I only remember the goals we conceded against Newcastle Norwich, Arsenal & Chelsea....all of which were good finishes.
 
There was a podcast last season (think it was the Anfield Index/Blood Red one) that spoke about us losing the ball on crosses, & had some insights proven by the stats.

It basically pointed out that we're prepared to risk losing the ball at certain times & places, (in return for the chance it opens them up & creates a goal scoring opportunity obv) because the players know the majority of the time how to win that ball back because they predict it being lost & in what areas.

The issue this season is the same as at the start of last season (imo), in that we're off the pace by a bit, but that's enough to mean we're not winning back those second balls or lost/misplaced crosses as quickly or effectively.
 
Dreambeliever said:
The answer is obvious but it won’t happen.

Start Gomez instead of Matip. His pace covers the gap left by TAA better.
Click to expand...

That could be part of the reason, and what I thought first. Although Matip played for a long stretch last season too, when Gomez got injured.

But it's also fair to say that they would target the right side more, as Van Dijk isn't there, and maybe Robbo is also a bit better defensively than TAA?
 
Farkmaster said:
The gap is only a problem if we give the ball away in a dumb way. We should focus on that.

Put Gomez in and they'll play the long aerial ball to that side and Gomez will deal with it poorly.
Click to expand...

Also true. But I don't think anyone is saying Gomez should play RB, just maybe that he covers that position better when he's the right-sided CB, due to his pace.

It's also true to say that TAA has been giving the ball away too much, he was horrible against United and also kept giving the ball away against Napoli.
 
images
 
FoxForceFive said:
You don't get 'last season' without playing him into form.

I don't get how people don't understand that players need a fair few games to get even close to their best after injuries.

The problem with the need for perfection that city's pace has set is that normally you'd play those players back into form, but we can't risk it.

I suspect klopp will play Gomez tonight, but it depends how much of an aerial threat he thinks they'll be, as Matip & VVD have a phenomenonal record beating aerial threats.

Regards the main point, I actually think we encourage teams to attack down that side, so I don't see it as a problem.
Click to expand...

He was superb from the first min last season
 
More teams are attacking us. last season we were an unknown quantity. Teams are now working out our weakness as we play exactly the same.

Also we have a lack of quality to to rotate and mix it up. That and everyone wants to beat the European champions.
 
FoxForceFive said:
There was a podcast last season (think it was the Anfield Index/Blood Red one) that spoke about us losing the ball on crosses, & had some insights proven by the stats.

It basically pointed out that we're prepared to risk losing the ball at certain times & places, (in return for the chance it opens them up & creates a goal scoring opportunity obv) because the players know the majority of the time how to win that ball back because they predict it being lost & in what areas.

The issue this season is the same as at the start of last season (imo), in that we're off the pace by a bit, but that's enough to mean we're not winning back those second balls or lost/misplaced crosses as quickly or effectively.
Click to expand...

I don’t think we press anywhere near the level City so this season or for the majority of last season. Not that it’s affecting us much but there is zero chance the way we got hit on the break on the weekend was planned or acceptable.
 
manwithnoname said:
That could be part of the reason, and what I thought first. Although Matip played for a long stretch last season too, when Gomez got injured.

But it's also fair to say that they would target the right side more, as Van Dijk isn't there, and maybe Robbo is also a bit better defensively than TAA?
Click to expand...

He did but our defensive record slipped somewhat once Matip came in. At the start we only conceded once when Becker fucked about and were almost impossible to score again so much so that when we went 1-0 it was almost guaranteed a win and when we scored twice it nailed it on. We were still good with Matip but conceded more.

Becker obviously is a big piece of the puzzle too
 
manwithnoname said:
That could be part of the reason, and what I thought first. Although Matip played for a long stretch last season too, when Gomez got injured.

But it's also fair to say that they would target the right side more, as Van Dijk isn't there, and maybe Robbo is also a bit better defensively than TAA?
Click to expand...

Also Robbo is certainly better, gets more support from Mane and has VVD inside him. I actually think the sheer speed of Gomez helps too
 
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