Team/Club in transition

[Insignificance]

I read this in every thread, as a hidden or open excuse that we should not expect to perform well.

I am curious when this transition state started.

We have the exact same problems now as we had before Rafa took over. We fail to captilize on and off the pitch, and we are constantly hiding behind that we will sooner or later perform. I am not blaming Rodgers anything here, but he has the same symptoms as any other Liverpool manager has had the last 2 decades; Talking about the ones he doesnt have, and asking for patience.

When will this transition period end? Anyone have any idea?

Has this become or pillow, our excuse to not kill of games and grab points. Has this become the standard for our club?

 

[Rosco]

Teams improve when they can increase the wage bill and transfer spending. If we created the possibility for that to happen we'd improve more rapidly.

Unfortunately that is virtually impossible due to the deals we've given to players. We've just got to sit those contracts out and hope we get lucky with youths developing and or some cheap transfer punts working out.

 

[mark1975]

We aren't performing poorly though, at least not in terms of intent and style, that's the difference and why some people are prepared to give it time. I don't know why others find it so difficult to separate that idea from the despair we felt at the hands of Hodgson, just because the results aren't massively different, the direction and the intentions are there to see.

You hit the nail on the head anyway, it's not entirely Rodgers' fault, we've had a few years since the last couple of seasons of Rafa's reign, right through to last years debacle where we've squandered excessive amounts of money on shite players and extravagant wages. We're now paying the price. People might be dubious about the owners, given their recent PR track record, fair enough, but they deserve credit for trying to give us a shot in the arm. What they don't need is kicking for the fuckups of those trusted with the task of improving the team. They fucked up. At least you can say the American's came into this sport cold and at the bottom of the learning curve. What's the excuse for seasoned staff and under-performing players?

I don't know why there has to be anything beyond the glaringly obvious. We need a striker, we don't have a lot of money and squad wise we're some way off the leading pack. People are looking for something that isn't there because the answer is staring them in the face and they want someone to kick out at.

It WILL take time and we don't have the resources to do it overnight. Patience was always going to be required, the problem for many is that we've had to do the patient thing alot lately. Tough shit.

 

[gkmacca]

One of the best comments Rodgers has made came last season (twice, of course), when he likened being a manager to trying to rebuild a plane while it was still flying in mid-air. The unfortunate thing is FSG seem to think you can land the plane, stick it in a hanger for an indefinite period, take it apart, wait for a few months for new parts to arrive, and then launch it again as if nothing happened. I doubt even Rodgers thinks you can write-off an entire season and then start all over again next year. Other clubs are evolving all the time and the best ones are quite ruthlessly working on how to keep progressing. FSG need to wake up and concentrate on the here and now. Of course the style was going to take time but there was no need for the squad - a squad that beat some big clubs last season - to have been decimated like this.

 

[mark1975]

I don't buy all of that Macca. First of all, Bellamy wanted to go back to his family, Kuyt has already said he'd made his mind up to go last season and Maxi more or less the same. They didn't break up the squad. Carroll was an almighy mess all round, that's about the only departure that was in the clubs hands and was unquestionably fucked up.

As for the lack of financial clout this season. I agree that it's left us behind, fucking around over Dempsey and Sturridge didn't help either, but they'd reinvested alot in the squad previous to that and we royally fucked it up and missed out on CL football, so there was always going to be a period of recuperation after that, we shot ourselves in both feet by failing to qualify for Europe's elite competition and leaving ourselves with a few overpaid for and ludicrously waged players.

No one is suggesting it's a write off, we were just going to struggle to do much better than we did last season, because we've got to get over losing a couple of old heads, we're incorporating a new style, giving experience to younger players (hopefully that will pay dividends) and we haven't really been in a position to invest heavily (again).

It's like football manager syndrome, we're not a bottomless pit and it's a two way thing. If the money was spent well last Summer we'd have had a platform to build on. As it is, the only thing to come out of that £100m+ spent is Suarez, not one of the other players have been worth the money spent nor an improvement on the players they replaced. That's the reality, it's nothing to do with a lack of ambition, it's being stung by an initial show of genuine and reasonable intent.

 

[jexykrodic]

Teams improve when they can increase the wage bill and transfer spending. If we created the possibility for that to happen we'd improve more rapidly.

Unfortunately that is virtually impossible due to the deals we've given to players. We've just got to sit those contracts out and hope we get lucky with youths developing and or some cheap transfer punts working out.

I think this is the realistic approach.

We've tried to add expensive players to a better squad in the past but have never quite had enough nett spend to get over the line or said players haven't worked.

I'd only add that the owners should continue the good work involving a revamped stadium and improved sponsorship deals. This shows that some intelligence and a strategy is being used to create the possibility to increase spending.

These are all lengthy transitional matters. I'd say a timeline of 3-5 years out.

 

[gkmacca]

I don't buy all of that Macca. First of all, Bellamy wanted to go back to his family, Kuyt has already said he'd made his mind up to go last season and Maxi more or less the same.

Were they replaced? Apropos Dempsey - there was some bloke from the club's semi-invisible 'supporters' committee' on LFCTV the other night claiming they'd been told by the club that the actual reason Dempsey wasn't signed was that the price went beyond the strict transfer budget (he related this with a straight face and seemed perfectly happy about it, which probably explains why he was recruited for the role). If that indeed is true then FSG are even loopier than I thought and it hardly bodes well for January. As for the gross spending of the previous couple of years - who sanctioned it? FSG did. Even though they clearly did not want the management team and intended to change it as soon as they could. That's their problem, no matter how much they try to shift the blame.

 

[mark1975]

Were they replaced?

How much did they go for? Buttons, you replace buttons with buttons. They wanted to go, I really don't see how that can equate to the owners 'decimating the squad'.

You could argue that they were replaced by Borini, Sterling and Suso. Despite two players already being here, Rodgers has had the balls (or necessity) to give them a shot at it. Even still, that's a case of us replacing three players who left for pretty much fuck all with a £10m outlay. And we bought Joe Allen. A £25m+ Summer outlay is still more than what most clubs manage and I'd wager not massively far off the net spends of other big clubs around us. We didn't by a goalscorer, that's where we fucked up, but let's not pretend that we didn't spend, because we did.

 

[gkmacca]

How much did they go for? Buttons, you replace buttons with buttons. They wanted to go, I really don't see how that can equate to the owners 'decimating the squad'.

You could argue that they were replaced by Borini, Sterling and Suso. Despite two players already being here, Rodgers has had the balls (or necessity) to give them a shot at it.

Come on Mark, that's bollocks. Rodgers had to play the kids because by his own admission the squad was 'paper thin'. It wasn't paper thin last season. The fact that it was at the start of this season is bad management (by FSG), plain and simple.

 

[jexykrodic]

Were they replaced? Apropos Dempsey - there was some bloke from the club's semi-invisible 'supporters' committee' on LFCTV the other night claiming they'd been told by the club that the actual reason Dempsey wasn't signed was that the price went beyond the strict transfer budget (he related this with a straight face and seemed perfectly happy about it, which probably explains why he was recruited for the role). If that indeed is true then FSG are even loopier than I thought and it hardly bodes well for January.

This is what happens when new and naive owners lose faith in free spending experts - they get a hold of the purse strings in an effort to pause and figure out their next move. Unfortunately a pause in top flight football usually ends in going backwards.

I expect it's dawned on them now that this was a mistake that has to be rectified dynamically and that you can't just turn the tap on and off without consequence.

The whole of Liverpool FC needs an upgrade: the stadium, the playing staff, it's sponsors and it's merchandising; very tough to accomplish against a background of austerity. I don't envy them, I suspect they are wondering what they've let themselves in for.

 

[gkmacca]

They need to work it out pretty damn quick.

 

[mark1975]

Come on Mark, that's bollocks. Rodgers had to play the kids because by his own admission the squad was 'paper thin'. It wasn't paper thin last season. The fact that it was at the start of this season is bad management, plain and simple.

You were saying they've decimated the squad without truly reinvesting. Rodgers spent £10m on Borini and £14m or whatever on Allen. He knew what he had and chose to spend relatively heavily on two players, one arguably in a position that wasn't a necessity (and when you consider we got Şahin too). So the suggestion that the 'club' got rid of a few old heads and deliberately didn't replace them is wide of the mark, suggesting that Rodgers was left with a shit squad that he had to make the best with is also wide of the mark. He came in in the Summer, had time to assess the squad and decide what was needed and decided to spend it on two midfielders and a striker. We've needed wingers for about a century but he chose not to. That doesn't smack of someone 'getting by' it smacks of a manager content enough with what he had in those roles to invest elsewhere. So either Rodgers has got it wrong investing in other positions, or he maybe thought that in the longterm, what we had in Kuyt, Bellamy and Maxi's roles was enough (with Sterling, Suso and Assaidi), or certainly not going to be significantly different (which it hasn't been if you consider last seasons stats for those three players). As for the suggestion that Rodgers was 'going to send these players out on loan', that's selective. He said he had considered sending Sterling out on loan but his performances pre-season made him think again. Let's not forget, we've bought Assaidi too.

 

[gkmacca]

So why is the team so fucking shit then?

 

[Rosco]

Were they replaced? Apropos Dempsey - there was some bloke from the club's semi-invisible 'supporters' committee' on LFCTV the other night claiming they'd been told by the club that the actual reason Dempsey wasn't signed was that the price went beyond the strict transfer budget (he related this with a straight face and seemed perfectly happy about it, which probably explains why he was recruited for the role). If that indeed is true then FSG are even loopier than I thought and it hardly bodes well for January. As for the gross spending of the previous couple of years - who sanctioned it? FSG did. Even though they clearly did not want the management team and intended to change it as soon as they could. That's their problem, no matter how much they try to shift the blame.

I don't think it's fair to criticise them for allowing Dalgmoli to spend and then criticising them for not spending all in the same post.

 

[mark1975]

So why is the team so fucking shit then?

I give up.

The point was that it needs time, ergo, you can't expect it to be pulling up trees - yet. So what are you saying Macca, that Sterling, Suso and Shelvey aren't good enough? They have bright futures but will need game time and perseverance, this years experience will do them good and we and they will benefit from it in seasons to come and potentially they can replace those outgoing players. It will require patience though.

And is it really 'so fucking shit'? Your personal gripe or agenda is with the owners and Rodgers, so right now the stick to beat them with is the results, which is selective given the performances (didn't Yaya Toure say their game against us was the best he's experience since coming to the Premiership?), especially when you and I both stood here last year and defended Kenny to the hilt after spending vast amounts of money and having a season non too dissimilar to this one. I wanted to give Kenny time, but I'm not going to stand here and chastise Rodgers for not being quite as good with the press while having a relatively similar season without the same financial backing.

 

[gkmacca]

This club is being humiliated at home and looks set to be humiliated tonight in Europe. Instead of developing a squad that got to two finals last year it's now being bombed out of any competition it has the slightest chance of progressing in and is languishing in a position in the league that would get any manager not liked by most in here denounced. It's a disgrace and I can't believe the eagerness to excuse it.

 

[mark1975]

We brought in £1m in the Summer and Spent £28m. That's not really a poor investment.

 

[Rosco]

And it's almost the same as what Kenny and Commoli had in net terms.

But facts rarely enter the equation

 

[gkmacca]

Unless you improve on 7th it is as far as I'm concerned. The club's a laughing stock.

 

[mark1975]

This club is being humiliated at home and looks set to be humiliated tonight in Europe. Instead of developing a squad that got to two finals last year it's now being bombed out of any competition it has the slightest chance of progressing in and is languishing in a position in the league that would get any manager not liked by most in here denounced. It's a disgrace and I can't believe the eagerness to excuse it.

We've got 'bombed' out of cup competitions in many a successful season. We're out of one and top of the group in Europe as it stands.

So you're criticising us for a game that hasn't been played yet in a competition where we currently stand top of our group?

 

[Rosco]

Its like an economy Macca, it doesn't suddenly turn shit overnight and it won't magically turn around overnight.

We've pretty much bottomed out now. It's all upwards after this season

 

[Insignificance]

I give up.

The point was that it needs time, ergo, you can't expect it to be pulling up trees - yet. So what are you saying Macca, that Sterling, Suso and Shelvey aren't good enough? They have bright futures but will need game time and perseverance, this years experience will do them good and we and they will benefit from it in seasons to come and potentially they can replace those outgoing players. It will require patience though.

And is it really 'so fucking shit'? Your personal gripe or agenda is with the owners and Rodgers, so right now the stick to beat them with is the results, which is selective given the performances (didn't Yaya Toure say their game against us was the best he's experience since coming to the Premiership?), especially when you and I both stood here last year and defended Kenny to the hilt after spending vast amounts of money and having a season non too dissimilar to this one. I wanted to give Kenny time, but I'm not going to stand here and chastise Rodgers for not being quite as good with the press while having a relatively similar season without the same financial backing.

I agree. It takes a lot of time. But in many ways Rafa also demanded time, and Kenny mentioned it too (I don't care what Hodgson said or did anyway). Will we ever get out of that time trap, that we go from we will become good to we are good.

My main irritation factor is that we seem to complain most about other money when we are loosing out against shit team, as we seem to play quite even with the teams that have money. Where does this phenomena come from? Is the patience thing that we sooner or later wil lstart beting teams that doesn't have our reseources and not our calibre of players either?

 

[mark1975]

I agree. It takes a lot of time. But in many ways Rafa also demanded time, and Kenny mentioned it too (I don't care what Hodgson said or did anyway). Will we ever get out of that time trap, that we go from we will become good to we are good.

My main irritation factor is that we seem to complain most about other money when we are loosing out against shit team, as we seem to play quite even with the teams that have money. Where does this phenomena come from? Is the patience thing that we sooner or later wil lstart beting teams that doesn't have our reseources and not our calibre of players either?

I think we need to learn from our mistakes then, you could argue that the three of them could have reasonably been given more time and starting again with each cost us, but I'm not going to bail out in November against Rodgers just because he doesn't have Kenny's suave way with the press (after decades of experience, I might add).

 

[gkmacca]

he doesn't have Kenny's suave way with the press (after decades of experience, I might add).

I though Kenny was supposed to be shit with the press??? Rodgers adores them and they love him because it's like a feast after a famine given his readiness to talk himself hoarse.

 

[mark1975]

I though Kenny was supposed to be shit with the press??? Rodgers adores them and they love him because it's like a feast after a famine given his readiness to talk himself hoarse.

Heh, I for one never said that GK, I always loved Kenny's press outings. I've got my reservations about Rodgers in that respect (and I've said so several times), but results wise I don't think it's catastrophic, or that different and the promise is there.

 

[gkmacca]

I hope you're right but just don't see it. I've never been so depressed in my life.

 

[Dahuge]

We aren't shite, we just can't score because unfortunately unless Suarez creates and scores himself then we don't score.....Therein lies the problem...

Unfortunately for Rodgers he is trying to reduce the shite players on massive contracts, bring in kids, alter the teams style all without a goalscorer. We create enough chances in a single game to win 4 games but cannot score..that is the problem

 

[gkmacca]

We aren't shite, we just can't score because unfortunately unless Suarez creates and scores himself then we don't score.....Therein lies the problem...

Unfortunately for Rodgers he is trying to reduce the shite players on massive contracts, bring in kids, alter the teams style all without a goalscorer. We create enough chances in a single game to win 4 games but cannot score..that is the problem

The defence is fine, then, is it?

 

[Dahuge]

No there are issues there but a more pressing issue is that we don't score

 

[Jack D Rips]

In fairness Macca, last seasons defence ( which had one of he best records in the league) is still available to us. I dont think anyone would have precicted that it would become so soft-centred, even allowing for the changes that have had to be made.