Don't be stupid, according to Dreamy we have by far the best starting eleven in the league.
The formation
- Thread starter Dreambeliever
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
- Status
Don't be stupid, according to Dreamy we have by far the best starting eleven in the league.
You're being sarcastic right?? Enrique is poor.
He's very marmite is Enrique, I was one of Enriques first and harshest critics, however he won me around, because like him or hate him, he's fantastically defensively, very strong, fast and a good tackler, he should always been first choice in the 4-2-3-1 system. However going forward is another matter, gorgeous balls to Suarez (lol) and the occasional goal aside, his crossing is dreadful and his decision making is somewhat questionable, someone on twitter said you could sum Enrique up as 8/10 defensively, and 3/10 attacking, I think that's a perfect summation.
In this 3-5-2 formation we're playing, I reckon we can get away with playing someone a little less solid in defence in return for someone who offers more going forward. Obviously we've not seen enough of Aly Cissokho, however the signs suggest he's made for the LWB role, and I'd really like to see him given two or three games there to prove himself.
Here are a couple of intriguing formations/selections from thisisanfield. First, a 4-3-3 with "inverted triangle" in midfield and no Gerrard or Lucas:
http://www.thisisanfield.com/2013/10/how-brendan-rodgers-can-repair-liverpools-faltering-midfield/
Second, a 4-4-2 "diamond" AC Milan style:
http://www.thisisanfield.com/2013/10/diamond-midfield-prove-effective-liverpool/
I like both of these. It might be practical to play this counter-attacking style for the first couple of months, while the new players are bedding in and the likes of Coutinho and Allen are injured. But we probably won't finish the season in top 4 playing this way, so pretty soon we will need to start building a system that offers more control and more varied threats than just Sturridge and Suarez combining between themselves. And that would mean taking some risks such as playing with someone like Gerrard or Allen in the DM spot and hoping that the speed and physicality of our new defenders can compensate for the absence of Lucas. Whatever decision Rodgers makes, one thing I'm certain about is that the team finishing the season will be pretty unrecognizable from the one we are seeing here at the start.
http://www.thisisanfield.com/2013/10/how-brendan-rodgers-can-repair-liverpools-faltering-midfield/
Second, a 4-4-2 "diamond" AC Milan style:
http://www.thisisanfield.com/2013/10/diamond-midfield-prove-effective-liverpool/
I like both of these. It might be practical to play this counter-attacking style for the first couple of months, while the new players are bedding in and the likes of Coutinho and Allen are injured. But we probably won't finish the season in top 4 playing this way, so pretty soon we will need to start building a system that offers more control and more varied threats than just Sturridge and Suarez combining between themselves. And that would mean taking some risks such as playing with someone like Gerrard or Allen in the DM spot and hoping that the speed and physicality of our new defenders can compensate for the absence of Lucas. Whatever decision Rodgers makes, one thing I'm certain about is that the team finishing the season will be pretty unrecognizable from the one we are seeing here at the start.
I love how Sakho (and Toure too to some extent) is just a beast in the air. He seemed to nail everything that came close to him and I can't easily remember the last time we had a player like that. With this in mind I'm happy to see Sakho as the central CB of three, Toure should play on the right and that really only leaves Agger, so although Skrtel has played better than him this season he'd end up on the bench.
Unless of course we put Skrtel in at right CB and move Toure into DM with Lucas going to the bench
Sami doesn't count as he's a given !!
Carrick and Pirlo play in that role. Why can't Gerrard?
Because, as Ryan said, he doesn't have the discipline. GH found that out from experience and Rafa stated it in so many words in an interview once.
So if young, swashbuckling Gerrard lacked some discipline playing for Houiller at 22-23, you write him off at 33, at the last stage of a world-class career? That makes no sense. And Rafa also said that Gerrard could be his team's best player pretty much in any position. Rodgers as well as many analysts are signing praises to his movement and discipline now and he has no choice but to develop this side of his game even further because his attacking powers are generally on the wane. Can Gerrard be at least as good defensively as Carrick and Pirlo (and better than Scholes)? Of course he can.
Have you watched him recently? I think he clearly lacks the drive/ energy to be a ground covering DM now. He still has the ability to play his immaculate long balls but I think he is much less eager to put in a tackle and much happier to have someone do the leg work for him.
Stevie had the raw ability to play in any outfield position on the right or in the middle with distinction (less so on the left, but even there he wasn't bad). Having that ability, though, is not the same thing as making good use of it. Part of the problem we've had in midfield is precisely that Stevie's been playing deeper but - yes, even now in his early 30s - still doesn't have the positional discipline required, because he's looking to attack all the time. The idea that he'd be "developing this side of his game even further" doesn't hold water, because that side of his game's never been there.
Both are more disciplined, dictate tempo far better, and can pass the ball better than Gerrard that's why.
First you said Gerrard was not "defensive" enough for that role, now the problem is that he is not as good a passer as Pirlo? Let's tackle those 2 questions separately. First of all, can we agree that defensively Gerrard is not any worse than Pirlo or Carrick or Scholes, so the fears of him being able to "handle" the deep-lying central position those 3 are used to occupying are a bit exaggerated? You don't necessarily need a Makelele or Mascherano type in that position. And in some systems DMs doesn't need to cover all that much ground - just need to position themselves right and stay disciplined.
I keep hearing that Gerrard is "undisciplined" and I just don't understand where this notion is coming from. Maybe this is a label that got stuck from his earlier years and people are reluctant to change their views despite all the evidence to the contrary. Forget about reputations and just trust your eyes. Do you really see Gerrard out of position much these days? Is he flying into rash challenges, earning unnecessary bookings or free-kicks? Nope, not at all. In fact his intelligent positioning and tactical discipline is universally praised by pundits and managers now. Only the fans fail to see it, because the are blinded by their vision of what Gerrard "should" be like to appreciate the kind of player he is now.
Now let's talk about attacking qualities. I agree, Gerrard doesn't have the natural ability to control the tempo and flow in the same way a born-and-bred playmaker like Pirlo or Xabi does. This is a skill he is learning late in his career and he is gradually getting better at it (compare his play now to the beginning of last season), but he will probably never quite catch up to someone like Xabi. However his long-range passing is still absolutely world-class and 2nd to none - and it will remain probably his biggest attacking weapon for as long as he keeps playing.
So how do we set up our existing midfielders in the most effective way? The Gerrard and Lucas pairing seemed to work well last season, but this season we see a clear problem: with both players preferring to stay safe and compact we can't dominate possession and territory the way Rodgers envisions it (on the plus side, our CM is pretty solid defensively). Some people here think that if Gerrard pushed further forward it would solve the problem - I think this is would only make it worse. If Gerrard's biggest weapon nowadays is the long pass, then he should receive the ball as deep as possible in order to have the maximum amount of time to pick a target. In this way, instead of Lucas alongside him, maybe we could try to place two creative and energetic players on both sides of Gerrard - for now Allen and Henderson, maybe Suso can be in the mix next season. If our CBs are physical and aggressive enough, this might just work and our midfield will dominate most games.
Doesn't he play a role that is akin to this for England?
Pretty much, yes, and rurikbird IMO has a point about trying that. However, he misses the point when discussing Stevie's positional sense. No-one's saying Stevie is "flying into rash challenges, earning unnecessary bookings or free-kicks". In some ways it would almost be a good thing if that *were* the problem because at least it would show that he was back there in position. The point Ryan's made, rightly IMO, and rurikbird keeps ignoring is that - not always, but too often - Stevie's not back there to do these things in the first place (and incidentally I haven't noticed the frequent praise of Stevie's positioning and tactical discipline that rurikbird refers to). He's further forward, not as far as he used to be but also not in position to do the defensive bit of his current job, though he still brings plenty to the team overall. Maybe one of the reasons Lucas has collected so many bookings is that he's been stretched too far as a result. It would take a Mascherano to do all that on his own, and Lucas - even the improved version we see these days - will never be in that class.
The likes of Pirlo have never been that good defensively (they've had somebody else doing most of the dirty work for them) so I don't think that side of things is an issue. The main issue is - as has been discussed - that for all of Gerrard's qualities he doesn't seem to be able to dictate the pace of a game and that is our main problem area at the moment. We can't have people continually giving the ball away, turning into trouble and trying to deliver a killer ball deep in our own half - Gerrard isn't the only culprit and not always the worst but he is one of them.
I actually think Gerrard is too disciplined these days. His role magnifies his deficiencies and I still don't understand why we're using him in the way that we are. It's not doing Gerrard any favours and it's not doing the team any favours either.
I actually think Gerrard is too disciplined these days. His role magnifies his deficiencies and I still don't understand why we're using him in the way that we are. It's not doing Gerrard any favours and it's not doing the team any favours either.
We may be confusing our arguments, and getting lost in needless, fruitless comparisons so for the sake of clarity I'll tell you why I don't like Gerrard in that role.
Firstly, we don't keep the ball well enough. Xavi, Carrick under Ferguson, and Pirlo in his pomp all played in sides that had stuck to a similar formation for years - they all knew the gameplan, and mostly they all had someone covering for them; Gattuso, Busquets, yes Carrick to a lesser extent but then in Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra and Rafael - he had a better back 4 behind him. This Liverpool team right now is getting better at maintaining possession yes, but you only have to look at the Utd game at home this season, and nearly every 2nd half w've played so far this year to demonstrate how far off we are from being a possession-dominant team.
So the way we're currently set up, we need a DM. Something Gerrard patently is not. I don't think you're saying that anyway, but you get my point.
Re him as a deep-lying playmaker. Well I've got loads of concerns with that. He's not disciplined enough. I know you're taking umbrage with this 'disciplined' word so I'll explain what I mean by it; someone who plays consistently the same way for 90 mins, week in week out. Is reliable with our without possession. Is steady enough to hold position, to work relentlessly to cover space without the ball, and doesn't get impatient. Gerrard doesn't meet those requirements for me. I watched that England-Montenegro game the other night (as good a body of evidence as you're going to get of him playing as that deep-lying role player, given Lampard was the nominally more advanced of the two CM's) and I couldn't have been more discouraged. time and time again he got done with the one around the corner to Jovetic in the #10 role. Charging forward to try and intercept possession when all he had to do was wait and hold. Wait and hold, wait and hold. He got caught square with Lampard far too often, and looked impetuous, overeager and well for want of a better word, undisciplined. Against better sides, they'll get done. All I could think of was how they'd go against some of the quality sides who'll make you pay if you roam out of position like that. Imagine Yaya Toure and Silva being given that space, they'd ripe the shit out of you. I wish I could find the videos and show you the evidence, fairly damning.
And then there's his passing. Everything about Gerrard is burst or bust. He's either exploding shots, runs, passes, or he's wandering. Before I go on here, I'd like it known he's greatest LFC player I've seen in my life and I love him dearly, but that's not the argument here. What Pirlo, Xavi, Carrick, Alonso, Christ even Gareth Barry 2 years ago can do is do the simple gloriously. Keep the ball moving, at the right tempo, dictate the game continuously, and move the ball around until it drives the opposition mental. Gerrard dictates games in bursts. He'll play 3 short passes and then wind up and ping one 45 yards, for no real reason, or absolutely hammer a pass at someone's feet, for no real reason. They're both admirable attributes, but not for a deep lying playmaker they're not.
He''s much too hot and cold, much too guts and glory for that role. and whilst I agree with you that he's tempered his game somewhat from the days of yore, I just can't see us becoming the best side in the country with someone as brilliantly unreliable as him in that role.
T
the_khl
Guest
That's a bold "I".
- Status
