Why are we so crap at signing attacking players?

[keniget]

I was just thinking about this on the way to work today and in the last 20 years, you could argue that we have only signed one top class attacking talent in Torres that doesn't come with any caveats when you discuss how successful he's been. It's quite amazing really.

I suppose in the last ten years we've had defensive managers who prioritised building a solid defensive base before addressing attacking concerns (and getting it largely wrong) and before that a long dodgy transitional period, which maybe can account for it to some degree but it's still a very poor record.

I can't really think of any other top clubs that have struggled so badly in this department. And it's not like we've not tried - we've gone for the high performers at youth tournaments, world cups, highly rated Englishmen... none of it has really worked.

Thank god for likes of Fowler, Owen and Gerrard.

 

[Oncy]

I thought Collymore and Berger were both superb.
With collymore then obviously the caveat is....he's a nut. But Berger was great until he had his cruciate injury.

 

[keniget]

Collymore was very talented, but what did he do for us? Gone after a couple seasons.

I did think of Berger (and I was a fan) but can we say he was top class?

 

[Modo]

Garcia had his ups and down, but he was a success imo

 

[spider-Neil]

half of the reason is the personnel and the other half is being primerely a defensive team for the better part of 10 years. if more people are commited to attacks the attackers will have more options.

 

[RolandG]

We have been crap at buying any decent players bar the few since Houulier's days. The sheer volume of players moved throught the club is staggering.

 

[Oncy]

I watched our 2003/2004 season review last night and that side was much better than results showed. We had horror injuries with Owen, Carragher, Baros, Kewell, Finnan and Gerrard missing huge chunks of the season. When our best team was fit we were brilliant that year. Sadly we had to rely too much on Cheyrou, Smicer, Diao and Traore too often.

 

[Insignificance]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=41152.msg1142933#msg1142933 date=1280217273]
Collymore was very talented, but what did he do for us? Gone after a couple seasons.

I did think of Berger (and I was a fan) but can we say he was top class?
[/quote]

Collymore was a star for us. Played fucking brilliant with power and pace blended with technique. Berger was also a star but fell into the same trap as so many others. He had a manager who favoured Leonhardsen due to his ability to run run and run.

We have had Baros who should be reckoned a good signing even if he was young at the time. Heskey was an england international as was crouchy. Morientes was a well reputaded international who many other clubs wanted. Riedle was a strong signing. Smicer could have been hadnt it been for his injuries.

All over we have had many very interesting players, however we have had managers who have failed to utilise their strengths and preffered more safe/dull options.

 

[Richey]

Its a tricky one. During the 90s and early 00s we didn't really need to buy so many attacking players as we had it all sorted with Fowler, Owen, McManaman and Gerrard.

A few of the attacking players we did sign were fucking terrible - Diouf, Cheyrou, Morientes, Keane, Voronin, Pennant, Gonzalez, Leto, Nunez, Aquilani, Le Tallec, Kennedy

But others did a decent job. Berger has been mentioned already. I would say that Kuyt has proved a decent signing and would also argue that Murphy did well for us - he averaged about 10 a year from midfield. That's not bad going.

Others we had did well enough to be called decent enough signings, but were not here for that long (combination of injuries and insanity). Bellamy, Crouch, Cisse, Garcia, Smicer, Kewell, Barmby, Heskey, Litmanen, Collymore. They weren't AWFUL players for us

 

[Woland]

It's simply that there aren't that many brilliant attacking players around. I'd say that in Torres we've had more success than the Mancs in this department... at least since RvN. It's much easier when they're born here, as per Fowler and Owen.

 

[Squiggles]

Because our scouts have underperformed and never been made accountable.

 

[keniget]

I'm not saying we've never signed any decent players. Obviously guys like Kuyt, Garcia, Crouch, Heskey et al can be considered relative successes, however to have only signed one genuine talent - a player the rest of the league envies and fears - underlines another reason behind our struggles.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=41152.msg1143031#msg1143031 date=1280222622]
I'm not saying we've never signed any decent players. Obviously guys like Kuyt, Garcia, Crouch, Heskey et al can be considered relative successes, however to have only signed one genuine talent - a player the rest of the league envies and fears - underlines another reason behind our struggles.
[/quote]

Yes that is certainly true.

Previously we had Fowler and Owen though, so other strikers we were looking to buy would be playing second fiddle to one or both of them. We haven't needed to buy a 'number 1' striker for some time - so in that position at least it was just a few fuck ups before we managed to get Torres, but buying strikers can be difficult.

 

[keniget]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=41152.msg1143040#msg1143040 date=1280223117]
Yes that is certainly true.

Previously we had Fowler and Owen though, so other strikers we were looking to buy would be playing second fiddle to one or both of them. We haven't needed to buy a 'number 1' striker for some time - so in that position at least it was just a few fuck ups before we managed to get Torres, but buying strikers can be difficult.
[/quote]

We've certainly needed a 'number 2' striker for a long time though having primarily relied on one player for goals - last season was another painful reminder that we're short in that position and have been for many a year. And then there is the issue of wingers / attacking midfielders. 'Nuff said.

 

[doctor_mac]

It is early to say Aquilani is a terrible attacking player. A few of the rare moments of excitement we had last season came from play involving him. I look forward to getting a full season from him. He's an excellent pass and move player who always wants the ball in attacking positions. I haven't given up hope there at all.

 

[kingjulian]

Is Xabi Alonso not an attacking player? He had mad football ability.

We had one very good season from kewell that had me hoping.

Paddy Berger was brilliant for us.

Anelka had half a good season and Collymore had two great ones.

Jari Litmanen should have been handled differently.

 

[Insignificance]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=41152.msg1143031#msg1143031 date=1280222622]
I'm not saying we've never signed any decent players. Obviously guys like Kuyt, Garcia, Crouch, Heskey et al can be considered relative successes, however to have only signed one genuine talent - a player the rest of the league envies and fears - underlines another reason behind our struggles.
[/quote]

Would other "successes" as Ginola, Robben, Overmars or even Bergkamp or Henry made the same impact in Pool as they did elsewere? I am not so sure about that....

There is not much talent like Torres around I am afraid. But even for that signing there was a lot of sceptism around, even on here... So lets keep on to him for all that it is worth!!!!!

 

[manwithnoname]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=41152.msg1143079#msg1143079 date=1280227502]

Is Xabi Alonso not an attacking player?

[/quote]

No

We had one very good season from kewell that had me hoping.

We had half a very good season.

Paddy Berger was brilliant for us.

No he wasn't. He was occasionally excellent, often injured, and sometimes ordinary.

Jari Litmanen should have been handled differently.

How so? He was always injured.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=41152.msg1143079#msg1143079 date=1280227502]
Is Xabi Alonso not an attacking player? He had mad football ability.

We had one very good season from kewell that had me hoping.

Paddy Berger was brilliant for us.

Anelka had half a good season and Collymore had two great ones.

Jari Litmanen should have been handled differently.
[/quote]

I wouldn't say that Stan had 2 great seasons. He was very good in his first season but not so good in his second season, hence the reason we had to get rid of him. His true mental colours started to shine through. Still, it was lucky we got rid of him when we did really as he became completely bonkers later on.

I don't really agree on Anelka either. The idea that he was really good when he was here wasn't quite the case. He didn't score many goals and was clearly unfit when he arrived.
The case for Anelka has been built up around the fact that his replacement was one of the worst players in our history while Anelka himself went on to continue to score goals wherever else he went. He could have been a great player for us (still debatable in itself of course) but he wasn't really at the time he was actually here.

 

[Squiggles]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=41152.msg1143094#msg1143094 date=1280229537]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=41152.msg1143079#msg1143079 date=1280227502]
Is Xabi Alonso not an attacking player? He had mad football ability.

We had one very good season from kewell that had me hoping.

Paddy Berger was brilliant for us.

Anelka had half a good season and Collymore had two great ones.

Jari Litmanen should have been handled differently.
[/quote]

I wouldn't say that Stan had 2 great seasons. He was very good in his first season but not so good in his second season, hence the reason we had to get rid of him. His true mental colours started to shine through. Still, it was lucky we got rid of him when we did really as he became completely bonkers later on.

I don't really agree on Anelka either. The idea that he was really good when he was here wasn't quite the case. He didn't score many goals and was clearly unfit when he arrived.
The case for Anelka has been built up around the fact that his replacement was one of the worst players in our history while Anelka himself went on to continue to score goals wherever else he went. He could have been a great player for us (still debatable in itself of course) but he wasn't really at the time he was actually here.
[/quote]

I do agree with that, although I'd say it's without doubt that Anelka would have got better and better for us and bene an astute signing.

 

[keniget]

Either way, the point is that undisputed successes have been few and far between. To start naming players that had a decent 6 months and then either weren't signed or fell by the wayside is scraping the barrel. As is naming someone who was here for a couple seasons and was then promptly moved because he wasn't working out for us.

 

[manwithnoname]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=41152.msg1143098#msg1143098 date=1280230553]
Either way, the point is that undisputed successes have been few and far between. To start naming players that had a decent 6 months and then either weren't signed or fell by the wayside is scraping the barrel. As is naming someone who was here for a couple seasons and was then promptly moved because he wasn't working out for us.
[/quote]

Not to mention Xabi fucking Alonso

 

[SummerOnions]

Litmanen, Garcia in fits & bursts.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=41152.msg1143097#msg1143097 date=1280230330]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=41152.msg1143094#msg1143094 date=1280229537]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=41152.msg1143079#msg1143079 date=1280227502]
Is Xabi Alonso not an attacking player? He had mad football ability.

We had one very good season from kewell that had me hoping.

Paddy Berger was brilliant for us.

Anelka had half a good season and Collymore had two great ones.

Jari Litmanen should have been handled differently.
[/quote]

I wouldn't say that Stan had 2 great seasons. He was very good in his first season but not so good in his second season, hence the reason we had to get rid of him. His true mental colours started to shine through. Still, it was lucky we got rid of him when we did really as he became completely bonkers later on.

I don't really agree on Anelka either. The idea that he was really good when he was here wasn't quite the case. He didn't score many goals and was clearly unfit when he arrived.
The case for Anelka has been built up around the fact that his replacement was one of the worst players in our history while Anelka himself went on to continue to score goals wherever else he went. He could have been a great player for us (still debatable in itself of course) but he wasn't really at the time he was actually here.
[/quote]

I do agree with that, although I'd say it's without doubt that Anelka would have got better and better for us and bene an astute signing.
[/quote]

Its likely yes

 

[spider-Neil]

going back to may earlier point, you simply cannot give an attacking player the ball, offer next to no support in the fear you are going to get caught on the counter and then moan when that player fails to leave ten players trailing in his wake. in the tail end of the season before last we went from not being able to string three passes together to ripping teams to pieces, no one new was brought in we simply had to go for games and as a result flung more players forwards because we had nothing to lose.

we could have no better attacking players, no question, but I have absolutely no doubt in my mind if we weren't such a cautious outfit some of the attacking players that were brought and then shipped out would have contributed more. at the world cup germany were raping teams using nothing more than decent players and the simple tactic of defending in numbers and attacking in numbers.

 

[Woland]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=41152.msg1143101#msg1143101 date=1280230650]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=41152.msg1143098#msg1143098 date=1280230553]
Either way, the point is that undisputed successes have been few and far between. To start naming players that had a decent 6 months and then either weren't signed or fell by the wayside is scraping the barrel. As is naming someone who was here for a couple seasons and was then promptly moved because he wasn't working out for us.
[/quote]

Not to mention Xabi fucking Alonso
[/quote]

I think it's Xabi A-fucking-Lonso