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Brendan Rodgers

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Bit of a digression but...

One of my biggest concerns is that Sterling is going to be fucked by the time the rest of them get their shit together... if they do.

We've said it before but it's no good having a 19 year old running around like mad week in, week out trying to carry the team.

I've seen him getting criticized recently for being "brainless" (!!!!) and making bad decisions but surely people can appreciate the main reason that is happening is because he's left feeling like he has to do it all himself... and in fairness he's not far off the truth. To a lesser extent it's a similar issue with Coutinho.
 
Are you trying to turn that into a positive somehow?

My point is we didn't have a good team this time last year, despite the decent results, just as we don't have a good team now.

The manager managed to turn the players he had into not just a good team but a bloody wonderful team over the course of last season.

So, I think Brendan deserves some faith that he can do it again.
 
Because it comes at a cost. How do people fail to understand this? Could we have got a similar player for half the price? Would we not then have been able to spend that money on, say, a top keeper? Would that not have been good?

Seriously, you've got more going on between the ears than this.

What has that got to do with Lallana.

Modo is critical of Lallana as a player. What Rodgers or Liverpool pay for him is nothing to do with how good Lallana is; it would be a fair criticism of Rodgers or the scouts if he was clearly valued incorrectly but would have utterly no bearing on whether Lallana is a good player, a poor player; whether he adds value to the team or doesn't add value to the team.

He's one of the few (maybe only) players that we've added who looks to directly replace one of the qualities we depended on from Suarez. He adds spark, movement, fits in with our style - he's a good player. To be critical of a player simply because of how much another party values him at is absurd IMO and ignores most economic valuation practices that I can remember.
 
Seriously, you've got more going on between the ears than this.

What has that got to do with Lallana.

Modo is critical of Lallana as a player. What Rodgers or Liverpool pay for him is nothing to do with how good Lallana is; it would be a fair criticism of Rodgers or the scouts if he was clearly valued incorrectly but would have utterly no bearing on whether Lallana is a good player, a poor player; whether he adds value to the team or doesn't add value to the team.

He's one of the few (maybe only) players that we've added who looks to directly replace one of the qualities we depended on from Suarez. He adds spark, movement, fits in with our style - he's a good player. To be critical of a player simply because of how much another party values him at is absurd IMO and ignores most economic valuation practices that I can remember.


There's more to it though.
I wasn't that keen on Lallana from the beginning but I have to admit the fee we paid for him made it worse, it raises expectations.
For example if Downing was bought for £5 million, would it really have bothered anyone?
No, he'd be dubbed a decent squad player or something like that.

I was on my little hiatus when Lallana scored but people were pretty quick to throw it in my face (got a few @Modo's).
Anyway, it's still early and I'm willing to give him a chance, but the fact that he was bought for £25 million or whatever makes me expect more from him. He hasn't had the best of starts mainly due to his injury, but he needs to start contributing consistently imo.
His replacement in Southampton already has 1 goal and 7 assists in the prem and he wasn't even "premiership proven".
What I see in Lallana is a slow, hard working player with flair and decent technique. He holds on to the ball for too long and he does fancy flicks. I don't however see him as a creative player.
 
What I see in Lallana is a slow, hard working player with flair and decent technique. He holds on to the ball for too long and he does fancy flicks. I don't however see him as a creative player.

Well, that makes more sense than disliking him purely because of his transfer fee.

I think he'll prove you wrong. I actually think he's doing that already. I don't think you'll ever admit to that, mind. I've never seen you do that before!

Though, I am unsure what his replacement at So'ton has to do with your argument.
 
Well, obviously.

But Rodgers buys players and builds a team he thinks capable of winning trophies. The owners back him and if he fails, he falls on his sword. It's that simple. Seemingly we've quiffed over a few million quid here or there in the past, and missed out on the player. We paid it this time. And good.

But, to be honest, Lallana is the least of my worries from the summer purchases. Right now, Markovic and Lovren for £20m each and Balotelli for 16 makes Lallana look like a freaking steal.
There's an incorrect usage of the word 'quiffed' in there.
 
Rory Smith, Tony Barrett
Published at 12:01AM, October 25 2014

As is the case for Liverpool so often this season, the default response is little more than a diversion. Just as the storm over Mario Balotelli’s shirt-swapping with Pepe served to distract from Real Madrid’s ruthless exposure of their flaws, so too the blistering, constant criticism of Brendan Rodgers’ defence may not address the real issue.

That Liverpool’s back line is vulnerable is not in question, of course, despite spending £43 million on new defenders this summer. They have a defensive record more fitting with the bottom six than the top, and things have got so bad that Rodgers was forced to dismiss this week the suggestion that he might bring in a specialist defensive coach to improve matters.

“No, no, no. No chance, no,” the Liverpool manager said. “I think it is just the lack of coaching time that is impacting. In terms of that, we don’t need it.”

To judge from an extensive investigation into Liverpool’s performances this season, it seems that the Northern Irishman may well be right, though perhaps not in the way he thinks. Much has been made this week of Rodgers’ ability or otherwise to coax the best from Balotelli. There is, though, a much more exacting test of his managerial ability at hand, and it is not solely to do with the defence.

The bare figures are damning. By pretty much any metric, Rodgers’ side’s defensive showing in their eight Barclays Premier League games ranges from deeply mediocre to outright poor. This will not come as a surprise.

They lead the league in facing what Opta, the data experts, refer to as “Big Chances”: those opportunities from which teams really should score. They have made fewer blocks than any other side and only an underperforming Everton and Chelsea, a team with a vastly different defensive style, intercept the ball less frequently.

Only Everton and Newcastle United have made more individual mistakes leading to attempts on goal. On average, Liverpool will gift their opponents a chance to score once a game. By contrast, Chelsea have not conceded a single goal that could be attributed to a mistake from any of José Mourinho’s players.

All of this, of course, appears to bolster the initial impression that Liverpool are fundamentally undermined by an ineffectual defence. Further examination, though, suggests that the issue is more complicated than that.

First: though there has been a steady deterioration in Liverpool’s defending in little more than two years of Rodgers’ reign — despite spending more than £63 million on new players — they are not significantly worse, statistically, than last season.

The difference in this campaign, of course, is that Luis Suárez and Daniel Sturridge are not around to bail them out. Liverpool’s defensive frailty is a longstanding flaw, and one that Rodgers must mend, but it has been highlighted only because of the collapse of their offensive output.

Then there is the nature of the goals they are conceding. Liverpool’s opponents have created 61 chances against them this season, 48 from central positions. Rodgers’s team are widely believed to be especially vulnerable to set-pieces and, thanks to Simon Mignolet’s leaden feet, the crossed ball, but that is not the case. They are too easily cut apart through the centre.

Martin Skrtel, Dejan Lovren and Mamadou Sakho must take some blame for that, but so too must the midfield and attack. Steven Gerrard, particularly, has seen his defensive contribution recede drastically this season — fewer tackles, interceptions and blocks — which, given his deep-lying role in Rodgers’ system, has left the back line hopelessly exposed.

The problems, though, start farther forward. Liverpool’s style morphed last season from the Barcelona-aping, death by passing used by Rodgers at Swansea to a more intense, counter-punching approach, inspired by Suárez but adopted from Borussia Dortmund.

Without the Uruguayan, Liverpool are neither: they are just a side who have a tendency to be careless with the ball. It is telling, for example, that only two sides in the Premier League are let down by their control of the ball more frequently — Crystal Palace and Arsenal — and that only three are dispossessed more frequently.

To illustrate: only two players at Manchester City lose possession because of poor touches at an average rate of more than once a game. Both, Sergio Agüero and Edin Dzeko, are strikers, who are liable to do so more frequently. Eleven Liverpool players, almost all of them midfielders, do so.

Then there is the fact that their frenzied pressing, such a potent attacking weapon last year, has all but broken down. According to a metric compiled by StatsBomb, using Opta data, Liverpool were the third most effective side at closing down their opponents last year; they have slipped to tenth this.

More tellingly, as StatsBomb’s Colin Trainor points out, last season, Liverpool pressed intensely when they were winning, losing and drawing, suggesting that Rodgers had set his team up to do just that regardless of the situation.

This season, they press just as much when they are losing, but far less when the result is in their favour. That hints partly at an identity crisis, that Liverpool are not quite sure what they are, and partly that the loss of Suárez has affected their defensive efforts quite starkly.


Rodgers’ team, put simply, give the ball away more and win it back less, which serves to make them more vulnerable to counterattacks.

They are being beaten at the game that they used to such devastating effect last season. Their defence may be weaker than others, but they are also forced to display that weakness more often.

Just as Balotelli’s poor form is a symptom of their failures, not the cause, so their defence’s shortcomings can be traced elsewhere. The problem is not an individual or a unit, it is systemic. Rodgers is right: a defensive coach is not the solution. This one is very much on the manager.
 
Interesting read but there's a contradiction between the stats that highlight player-error and the conclusion that's it's all down to how BR sets the team up. I'm not absolving the manager of responsibility but I remain convinced our problems this season are down to too many unforced individual errors...and that's beyond the manager's control during the course of the game.
 
During the course of the game, yes, but when it happens in game after game the buck stops with him. I'm still in his camp but I hope FSG are pressing him for some answers.

Incidentally, he seems to be getting with the reggae beat. According to the SCMBot elsewhere on the site, the "Echo" has a back page headline which quotes Rodgers as saying there's still "Everyting to play for". ;)
 
Lack of coaching time causing our defence to be shite. Really? You've had over a season to sort it and it's been shite throughout that entire period.
I hope he does sort it out with 'coaching time', if not, I hope he swallows his ego and pride and gets a decent coach in.
 
I know I'll get jumped on for this but I have massive concerns about Rodgers ability to get us out of this, his transfers have been poor at best. He has no ability to sort a defence out and it would appear without someone to produce the moments of magic there is no clue on how to open teams up.

Worrying times, we may need to start looking for a replacement for the end of the season
 
It's been said for weeks that Balotelli needs a partner. He's played Sterling but he's not a forward and doesn't play like one. It's no coincidence we looked miles better once we got 2 back up top after 65 minutes today. Yes, we've not got the likes of Suarez and Sturridge but it's retarded to change last season's winning formula and then compounding it playing with a lone forward who absolutely cannot fucking play as one is braindead.

I can't work out whether he's clueless or too clever for his own good.
 
Hull played 3-5-2. Starting with a diamond formation or switching to it during the game is quite the difference imho. Think they would have dominated us if we had started with a diamond.
 
There were so many contradictions in that article and the examples cited it was hard to take much out of it.

All this talk that Rodgers has been unable to shore up our defense is pretty limited. We haven't had a strong defensive unit since Sami left and that was well before Rodgers time.

In 2009 we scored 77 and conceded 27 at an average of .71 per game. Sami left and Rafa's famous defense went to pieces - conceding .92 goals per game. The attack also went backwards with just 61 for the season.

Under Roy the defense was abysmal at 1.16 and we only scored 59 for the season.

Kenny seemed to try and address the backline and we improved to 1.05 goals conceded per game. The flip side was we managed to score only a paltry 47 goals for the season.

Rodgers clearly looked to change focus. The defense was marginally worse at 1.13 per game but we were back near 2009 levels with 71 goals scored. Last season the defense was our worst ever at 1.32 but scoring 101 goals made it irrelevant.

Our defense has never recovered from Hyypia's departure - something a number of us predicted. It underlines what I've said - and a number of others have said - for a long time. If the opposition are fearful of you going forward then all you need in the backline is good readers of the game who can dominate in the air for set pieces and have confidence in the keeper. It's no coincidence that Sami ticked these boxes like few other defenders over the last 25 years. We've never come close to replacing him and until we do no manager or coach will get our defense back to those levels.
 
I'm as big a Sami fan as any, but i cant agree with that post. The thing is i dont remember the 2009 season like that. That season for me was about two things.

1. Carragher stepping up as the leader and playing a big part in integrating Agger and Skirtel to the back line which remained one of the better defense in the league for the next twoto three years.
2. More importantly - The best midfield in the world.

No team could live with our midfield. They had to bypass it to get a result and it was no easy task.

If we were going to attribute the mean defense to one man(which we shouldn't), then that man should be Javier Mascherano.

So for me, that post has the right argument but wrong conclusion.
 
I'm as big a Sami fan as any, but i cant agree with that post. The thing is i dont remember the 2009 season like that. That season for me was about two things.

1. Carragher stepping up as the leader and playing a big part in integrating Agger and Skirtel to the back line which remained one of the better defense in the league for the next two to three years.

There are a fair few things I'd comment on for this post such as the fact we've had great midfield's before without a tight defense.

My main point is what the quoted part means. How can we remember that season as Carra stepping up into a leadership role and bedding in Skrtel etc to be one of the best defenses for next few years when it was desperately average. 1 goal a game or worse is not a good defense - end of.

You can try and name any player you like but our defensive issues went the season he arrived and returned the season he left. Massive co-incidence or related. I think the answer is clear.
 
There are a fair few things I'd comment on for this post such as the fact we've had great midfield's before without a tight defense.

My main point is what the quoted part means. How can we remember that season as Carra stepping up into a leadership role and bedding in Skrtel etc to be one of the best defenses for next few years when it was desperately average. 1 goal a game or worse is not a good defense - end of.

You can try and name any player you like but our defensive issues went the season he arrived and returned the season he left. Massive co-incidence or related. I think the answer is clear.
He was brilliant but I think personnel and style plays a huge part in how a defender can play.
Hyppia would be getting criticized right now if he was playing for us. Yes, he'd absolutely deal with the long balls and corners, but there's no way he could have, with his speed, dealt with the numerous occasions our defenders get completely overexposed, sometimes outnumbered, every single game when we give away possession and all the midfielders are nowhere in sight.

We never had that under Rafa and Houllier.
 
Not as consistently perhaps, but Sami frequently had to cover across when JAR got caught upfield. His tremendous reading of the game meant that he, hence the team as a whole, was seldom badly exposed in the process.
 
There are a fair few things I'd comment on for this post such as the fact we've had great midfield's before without a tight defense.

My main point is what the quoted part means. How can we remember that season as Carra stepping up into a leadership role and bedding in Skrtel etc to be one of the best defenses for next few years when it was desperately average. 1 goal a game or worse is not a good defense - end of.

You can try and name any player you like but our defensive issues went the season he arrived and returned the season he left. Massive co-incidence or related. I think the answer is clear.

I was talking about the 2009 season, where our defensive record was stellar as evidenced by you, which you credited to Sami's brilliance despite him making very limited number of appearance. So the issue was not just related to Sami alone clearly.

As posted above, if he was playing for us now, he too will be getting the criticism...which is why many are rightly saying Rodgers is culpable given that it is his responsibility to find that balance.
 
Not as consistently perhaps, but Sami frequently had to cover across when JAR got caught upfield. His tremendous reading of the game meant that he, hence the team as a whole, was seldom badly exposed in the process.
Agreed! This is exactly point 1 in my opinion.

Lovren is a good, old fashioned centre back - uncompromising in the tackle, rarely gets bullied, solid in the air. Skrtel is fast, committed and not bad in the air. I don't see either of them reading the game at all let alone anywhere near the standard that Sami, Henchoz or even Carra would regularly display.

None of our defenders now read the game like that. I'm not saying that we'll win the title if Sami comes back or if Henchoz comes back. But just as someone says we wouldn't get this exposed under Rafa or GH there is no way we'd look this exposed with those defenders reading what's happening in front of them.
 
Agreed! This is exactly point 1 in my opinion.

Lovren is a good, old fashioned centre back - uncompromising in the tackle, rarely gets bullied, solid in the air. Skrtel is fast, committed and not bad in the air. I don't see either of them reading the game at all let alone anywhere near the standard that Sami, Henchoz or even Carra would regularly display.

None of our defenders now read the game like that. I'm not saying that we'll win the title if Sami comes back or if Henchoz comes back. But just as someone says we wouldn't get this exposed under Rafa or GH there is no way we'd look this exposed with those defenders reading what's happening in front of them.

I'm very hopeful Ilori can be in that mould.
 
I know I'll get jumped on for this but I have massive concerns about Rodgers ability to get us out of this, his transfers have been poor at best. He has no ability to sort a defence out and it would appear without someone to produce the moments of magic there is no clue on how to open teams up.

Worrying times, we may need to start looking for a replacement for the end of the season

There's a fine line between success and failure, a striker and a goalkeeper could go a long way to curing our woes. Last season we challenged for the title, we get to October and because we have a stuttering start, our fans start questioning whether he has a future. Ridiculous really, but I guess that's today's mentality in every walk of life, immediate success or hysterics.
 
There's a fine line between success and failure, a striker and a goalkeeper could go a long way to curing our woes. Last season we challenged for the title, we get to October and because we have a stuttering start, our fans start questioning whether he has a future. Ridiculous really, but I guess that's today's mentality in every walk of life, immediate success or hysterics.


There is and I agree a striker and a goalie could go a long way to addressing our issues but he has already bought a striker and a goalie so why will this time be different?

We are in his third season and we look no better than his first, defensively we are awful even after spending 63 million on defensive players...

We lost Luis massive massive loss but did nothing to mitigate it, balotelli was never going to fill the void.

My concerns aren't knee jerk they are valid concerns about his ability to get us out of the mire, I hope the sturridge coming back is the cure, it maybe for us scoring but it won't be for the defence.
 
It'll have some bearing on the defense though, IMO. I think it'll have a real bearing on the defense.

That said, we didn't actually look sensational prior to him being injured. Maybe he can work well with Mario - who knows. What I'm pretty sure of is that he needs a great CB and he needs an elite, goal scoring attacker if we're to challenge for the title.

As it is, with Sturridge back, I think we're in the mix for top 4. Not certainties but in the mix.
 
The league is weak. We will definately be in the mix.
Chelsea could win this by about 30 points
 
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