Pre Match Man United (A) - Sunday 15:30

[Squiggles]

Season-long stats do not paint the full picture right now. The long and short of it is neither the attack nor defence is currently at its best. We haven't kept a clean sheet at home for ages, we regularly concede first, we're missing umpteen chances and generally make games far more difficult to win. The current players returning from injury have not given us the uplift we hoped for, although there's more to come. Sadly it feels like there are more points which will be dropped by the end of the year. That may read overly pessimistic, but a side cannot continue to turn out perfect results with performances that do not warrant them. Do you remember the sense of inevitability we had in our title-winning year? It was almost boring at times. This side needs to get closer to that. Hopefully, the likes of Trent, Jota, and Allison returning provide some sort of internal reset and things click into gear as they need to.

I would say that by all rights we should not be competing for the league this year. We finished 5th last year, we have a brand new midfield and have had key players out for lots of time. We have done remarkably well to be in with a fight. But up against City and Arsenal even being a great side is not enough. Many of these players will need to experience feeling third or second. There's rarely a shortcut to the top spot.

 

[Brizzle]

You can’t discard penalties! He’s contributing the same. Period. Despite slowing down.

You can because that is how you can compare him to others in our team and other teams who don’t have the luxury of penalties.

Let’s hope he can find his cutting edge in the final 7 league games.

 

[Dreambeliever]

You can because that is how you can compare him to others in our team and other teams who don’t have the luxury of penalties.

Let’s hope he can find his cutting edge in the final 7 league games.

Fucking hell, a luxury. Tell that to every cunt who’s ever missed one. Arguably the most pressured part of the game.

Mo will continue to score and assist in his last 11 games. It’s what he does and has been doing for 7 years!

 

[rubans]

Worth a try.

....Not that I'd know what any strikers XG was anyway, as I'm not a fucking gimp.

You were the one who raised it dude, You sure?

 

[binomial]

Of course pens are a luxury, it's the best chance you can have in a game of football to score a goal by far. Doesn't require any build up and you have plenty of thinking time what to do with no defenders around you. It's 12 yards and all there is between you, the ball and the net is the keeper.

So it is a little of a misrepresentation when someone compares the goals of a player (who also happens to be the regular pen taker) to another player who isn't.

Take Bruno in his first full season at Utd. 28 goals in 58 games. You instantly look at that and think WOW. Why do you think he hasn't managed anywhere near that since? 13 pens he scored for them that season. Take someone like KDB's best season in goals, scored 19 goals a season later. How many were pens? 1.

 

[binomial]

You were the one who raised it dude, You sure?

Yeah you know what, I am a bit of a fucking gimp aren't I.

I hold that shit proudly.

 

[rubans]

Yeah you know what, I am a bit of a fucking gimp aren't I.

I hold that shit proudly.

Job for life even with AI.

 

[Fabio]

You can’t discard penalties! He’s contributing the same. Period. Despite slowing down.

What would you prefer, a striker who scores 15 goals all in open play, or a striker who scored 20, but 8 were pens?
for me, open play goals is paramount

 

[Richey]

What would you prefer, a striker who scores 15 goals all in open play, or a striker who scored 20, but 8 were pens?
for me, open play goals is paramount

To be fair, Salah would still be our best performing forward even if we had been awarded zero penalties this season

 

[Fabio]

To be fair, Salah would still be our best performing forward even if we had been awarded zero penalties this season

Fair, but I think penalties are an appropriate thing to consider when evaluating a season. Like. Would we be praising Salah more if we got the pens against city and arsenal? Even though glaring chances were missed and poor performances

 

[Brizzle]

Fucking hell, a luxury. Tell that to every cunt who’s ever missed one. Arguably the most pressured part of the game.

Mo will continue to score and assist in his last 11 games. It’s what he does and has been doing for 7 years!

It is just a better way to compare on an even keel. For example I could claim that Salah has only scored one more goal this season that Cole Palmer.

He has scored 3 more non-pen goals in the PL than Jota, with double the playing time (12 v 9 goals).

 

[Brizzle]

Fair, but I think penalties are an appropriate thing to consider when evaluating a season. Like. Would we be praising Salah more if we got the pens against city and arsenal? Even though glaring chances were missed and poor performances

If we hadn't managed to snatch draws from the jaws of victory, I don't think we'd need to be having such a debate about the decline of our best forward. But it would still be there as a talking point.

 

[Richey]

Fair, but I think penalties are an appropriate thing to consider when evaluating a season. Like. Would we be praising Salah more if we got the pens against city and arsenal? Even though glaring chances were missed and poor performances

Well we'd obviously be a lot less likely to criticise anyone as we would be top of the league! I do get the point though.

I guess what is probably stopping me from being too critical of Salah is that there are issues with every one of our forwards right now but at least he still has the numbers on the board (and he is by far the oldest too, so arguably is the one who SHOULD be declining!).

 

[rubans]

If we hadn't managed to snatch draws from the jaws of victory, I don't think we'd need to be having such a debate about the decline of our best forward. But it would still be there as a talking point.

We did, against Brighton, Salah got the winner.
I think we would be having this discussion if Salah had 30 PL goals to his name by now, it's a SCM thing.

 

[binomial]

We need to have all bases covered.

This is the way!!!

 

[Fabio]

Well we'd obviously be a lot less likely to criticise anyone as we would be top of the league! I do get the point though.

I guess what is probably stopping me from being too critical of Salah is that there are issues with every one of our forwards right now but at least he still has the numbers on the board (and he is by far the oldest too, so arguably is the one who SHOULD be declining!).

All completely fair points. I've ripped Diaz and gakpo to pieces, started to lose patience with Nunez, and bemoaned jotas fitness. It just feels like for some that criticising Salah is beyond the pale. He should be pilloried for some of these performances, but he'll get a pen to paper over the cracks. A pen most of us aren't even confident he'll score .

 

[Richey]

Oh he definitely isn't beyond criticism, and it's absurd to just pretend he's as great as ever.

Sadly it's always been the case that some people just latch onto a player and won't ever hear anything bad about them.

 

[rubans]

I think some have a balanced view and I can't remember anyone claiming he is the same player. Surely that has been discounted out by all?
It's just some the criticism is rather venomous and myopic, not sure what's the end goal.

 

[Fabio]

We did, against Brighton, Salah got the winner.
I think we would be having this discussion if Salah had 30 PL goals to his name by now, it's a SCM thing.

Based on absolutely zero evidence

 

[rubans]

Based on absolutely zero evidence

There is plenty, just look at some of the posts.

 

[Brizzle]

I think some have a balanced view and I can't remember anyone claiming he is the same player. Surely that has been discounted out by all?
It's just some the criticism is rather venomous and myopic, not sure what's the end goal.

Read this thread, lots of people saying that.

No one wants him to fail, but we are at a time where his pattern of play is no longer what it was (i.e. pace in behind, or venomous shots when he cuts in on his left) yet he and we still play like it is.

I think the robust debates are because there *IS* a group of posters claiming he's still 'at his best' 'no drop in performance' 'stats speak for themselves' etc. and that is utter crap for anyone who actually watches our matches, and doesn't just look at who got the goals/assists afterwards.

 

[rubans]

Read this thread, lots of people saying that.

No one wants him to fail, but we are at a time where his pattern of play is no longer what it was (i.e. pace in behind, or venomous shots when he cuts in on his left) yet he and we still play like it is.

I think the robust debates are because there *IS* a group of posters claiming he's still 'at his best' 'no drop in performance' 'stats speak for themselves' etc. and that is utter crap for anyone who actually watches our matches, and doesn't just look at who got the goals/assists afterwards.

Been following this boring thread, but I haven't seen a single reference where someone has claimed he is the same player we brought. Pls show me where someone said this?
He is different and is effective still (not going to say as effective) and I can only compare him to what we have, not some unicon striker we don't have.

 

[Whaddapie]

All completely fair points. I've ripped Diaz and gakpo to pieces, started to lose patience with Nunez, and bemoaned jotas fitness. It just feels like for some that criticising Salah is beyond the pale. He should be pilloried for some of these performances, but he'll get a pen to paper over the cracks. A pen most of us aren't even confident he'll score .

This.

The fact that he IS still leading the way for us upfront is why we're not running away with the league. Diaz runs his bollocks off, but has very little end product (Cheats, 2 pts), Nunez is as likely to hit row Z as the back of the net (Luton, Salford, 4pts), Jota has been blighted by injury, and Gakpo looks like he's scared to be playing for us most of the time.

We should be PISSING this title....

 

[tombrown]

Fucking hell, a luxury. Tell that to every cunt who’s ever missed one. Arguably the most pressured part of the game.

Mo will continue to score and assist in his last 11 games. It’s what he does and has been doing for 7 years!

Also, when people say he is declining they are comparing him against seasons when he also took penalties. You can't have it both ways & ignore penalties this year just to back an argument that he has turned to shite,

Anyway its only recency bias - he had a poor game (by his standards) against Utd and all of a sudden, he's done for

 

[rubans]

Also, when people say he is declining they are comparing him against seasons when he also took penalties. You can't have it both ways & ignore penalties this year just to back an argument that he has turned to shite,

Anyway its only recency bias - he had a poor game (by his standards) against Utd and all of a sudden, he's done for

Nail on the head.
Plus penalties only count if they are in top corner anyway.

 

[Whaddapie]

Also, when people say he is declining they are comparing him against seasons when he also took penalties. You can't have it both ways & ignore penalties this year just to back an argument that he has turned to shite,

Anyway its only recency bias - he had a poor game (by his standards) against Utd and all of a sudden, he's done for

C'mon, Tom... It's not just the Salford match - He's been poor in several games recently. And he's been poor (by his standards) overall since the start of last season now.

Thing with Mo has always been this: When on top form, his greed tended not to hurt us much (though if he'd just passed to Sadio for an open goal at Goodison, we'd have won the 2019 title, too), because for every chance we lost by him trying too much or missing that cut back inside and shoot for the far corner, he was then still able to terrorize defenders with his dribbling and pace (and the shot to the far corner was still going in regularly).

Now though, due to a combination of diminishing speed (and therefore that dribbling ability), his signature move and shot never working anymore and lesser players around him than previously, his greed does cost us in many games... And no, it's not his fault Diaz isn't Mane and Gakpo isn't Bobbie, but it is the reality of the situation.

 

[localny]

Another way to look at it. Bold prediction. We'll win the league by one point. The peno at OT will have won us the title.

 

[Whaddapie]

Another way to look at it. Bold prediction. We'll win the league by one point. The peno at OT will have won us the title.

I hope you're right, mo chara... I certainly don't think we're out of it by any means, but our margin for error now is basically zero. I had hoped we could 'carry a draw' into a later game, like the blueshite or Spurs (who always give us fits). Sunday took that option away, for me - We really do have to win them all now.

 

[localny]

I think we are going to drop more points mon ami. BUT, city and Arse will too I expect. This won't be your previous run ins.