Nottingham Forest docked four points for Premier League financial rules breach
Nottingham Forest have received a four-point deduction for breaching the Premier League’s profitability and sustainability ruleswww.theguardian.com
Man City ... ?
PL Opposition Tidbits
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Man City ... ?
I think they just pluck a number out of a hat to be honest.
The hat will be filled with big fat zeroes when it comes to City's judgement.
Re the Forest points deduction:
Firstly, if both they and Everton had had their deductions imposed last year, they would both have been relegated, saving Leicester and Leeds. I wouldn't be surprised if both relegated teams take legal action in due course.
Secondly, the Forest deduction was composed of a starting point of 3 points, plus a further 3 for the extent of the breach, less two for exceptional co-operation (they dobbed themselves in early and, unlike Everton, didn't provide inaccurate information to the Premier League).
Thirdly, the "corrupt as fuck" Premier League actually asked the commission to punish Forest more heavily (before taking into account any reduction for cooperation), arguing that the breach was bigger and therefore more serious than Everton's, warranting an 8-point deduction, as opposed to Everton's six. This would have then been reduced to 6 due to cooperation.
Fourthly, the commission applied a logic in coming to its six point starting point that implied consistency with the Everton judgment, but this wasn't my reading of the Everton case. I think the commission got it wrong and the PL's request for an 8-point starting point should have been upheld.
I'd be surprised if Forest were to get this reduced on appeal.
How this impacts Everton is likely to depend on the extent of their breach this year, but my sense is that the more lenient approach taken by this commission is unlikely to be repeated, and if that is the case their fans should turn their anger on the commission(s). I don't think they should be pointing at fingers at the PL, they would have meted out a harsher punishment on Forest if they'd had their way.
Firstly, if both they and Everton had had their deductions imposed last year, they would both have been relegated, saving Leicester and Leeds. I wouldn't be surprised if both relegated teams take legal action in due course.
Secondly, the Forest deduction was composed of a starting point of 3 points, plus a further 3 for the extent of the breach, less two for exceptional co-operation (they dobbed themselves in early and, unlike Everton, didn't provide inaccurate information to the Premier League).
Thirdly, the "corrupt as fuck" Premier League actually asked the commission to punish Forest more heavily (before taking into account any reduction for cooperation), arguing that the breach was bigger and therefore more serious than Everton's, warranting an 8-point deduction, as opposed to Everton's six. This would have then been reduced to 6 due to cooperation.
Fourthly, the commission applied a logic in coming to its six point starting point that implied consistency with the Everton judgment, but this wasn't my reading of the Everton case. I think the commission got it wrong and the PL's request for an 8-point starting point should have been upheld.
I'd be surprised if Forest were to get this reduced on appeal.
How this impacts Everton is likely to depend on the extent of their breach this year, but my sense is that the more lenient approach taken by this commission is unlikely to be repeated, and if that is the case their fans should turn their anger on the commission(s). I don't think they should be pointing at fingers at the PL, they would have meted out a harsher punishment on Forest if they'd had their way.
Just one extra point to add, having read the decision in a bit more detail, Forest will be in breach of PSR for this season too based on their own estimates (loss of £12m - £17m), unless they make significant player sales by the end of June. I think this puts them on losses of just under £105m (assuming a current year loss at the lower end of £12m), against a target of £83m (£22m is deducted for each year spent in the Championship during the 3-year assessment period). So they'd breach by £22m - £27m based on their range of estimated losses.
So if they do manage to stay up this year, they'll likely be back at the Commission next year.
Of course, if they do get relegated, there'd probably be a lot of offers for the likes of Awoniyi, Gibbs-White and maybe Hudson-Odoi.
So if they do manage to stay up this year, they'll likely be back at the Commission next year.
Of course, if they do get relegated, there'd probably be a lot of offers for the likes of Awoniyi, Gibbs-White and maybe Hudson-Odoi.
Evertons hearing is scheduled for next week, @Beamrider
Thanks. Following the timeline in Forest's case (hearing 7/8 March) we should expect to hear the outcome for Everton in early April, a week or two before the winner-takes-all PSR derby against Forest on 20th.
What do you think Evertons point deduction might end up being?
It's really hard to say. This latest decision casts doubt on the principles established in the Everton appeal.
The appeal basically adjusted them back to a basic penalty of 6 pts, netted off negative impact of misleading information and severity of offence versus positive trend in results (reducing losses over the period) and then gave them no mitigation for co-operation, so it stood at 6 points.
The Forest decision implies that the Everton sanction was calculated as a basic 3 points for a breach, adding a further 3 for severity, and no deduction for co-operation. This wasn't how I read the Everton appeal, but perhaps there is a more detailed "behind closed doors" version that the Forest commission had access to.
The Forest decision breaks their penalty down quite clearly - 3 points for breach, a further 3 for severity (even though their breach was higher than Everton in absolute and percentage terms), less 2 for exceptional cooperation (NB the Everton appeal said their level of cooperation was no more than ought to be expected).
So assuming Everton have been more co-operative this time, they could be looking at 1 or 2 points off the sanction (I think 1 is more likely, as I doubt they will have cooperated as much as Forest given they were already fighting an existing ruling), but the basic sanction would be 3 points plus extra depending on the extent of the breach. Because they make so many adjustments between their accounts and their PSR numbers, it is practically impossible to estimate that breach based on public info (and the 2023 accounts haven't been published yet in any case), but I don't think the breach should be as significant as the last case. That said, the "positive trend" in their results has to have reversed for them to be charged again (2023 loss will be higher than 2022), so I think they will have to argue hard on "double jeopardy" to get extra mitigation. I would expect the commission to dismiss that - they're in the shit again because their 2023 loss is higher than 2022, so they haven't steadied the ship - it's 2023 that's causing the problem, not the years that have already been part of an earlier ruling).
So my sense is likely 3 points minimum for the breach (following Forest decision, but I think the PL will push for a higher basic sanction), maybe 1 point reduction if they've played nice, and then add on extra depending on the size of the breach.
So my best guess is at least 2 points, but I'd be surprised if it's more than 5 (rationale for 5 being a repeat of the last decision of 6, with 1 point deducted for playing nice this time). As of today, a 5-point deduction would put them into 18th, 1 point below Forest, but with a better goal difference.
I still think Luton will take that third relegation place in any event.
No. The problem is that when you punish clubs you punish fans, and fans aren't really to blame for this, so clubs will never be punished the way they should be. Everton's 10-point deduction was a fair punishment for their owners and management, but it was harsh on their fans, even though they are all gobshites.
A 3-4 point deduction would put them in a 3 horse race with Forest and Luton for the drop. I'll take 1 in 3!
Fun fact, Everton won four of their five league games after they were docked 10 points. That accounts for nearly half of their (net) points this season (12 out of 25).
They haven't won a league game in three months (11 games) since then (last win was 16 December 2023).
They're probably more at risk of relegation if they don't get docked any more points and keep on clocking up the odd draw like they are at present.
They haven't won a league game in three months (11 games) since then (last win was 16 December 2023).
They're probably more at risk of relegation if they don't get docked any more points and keep on clocking up the odd draw like they are at present.
Harland injury? Supposedly walked out of the training session.
View: https://x.com/StatCity/status/1770084659918991601?s=20
View: https://x.com/StatCity/status/1770084659918991601?s=20
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Apparently its the Star that started the rumours, so don't get your hopes up.
However it would be amazing.
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Currently locked in a discussion with my Manc supporting mates, and interesting to hear what people on here think.
Mainoo. I think he’s a talented tidy player with what looks like great potential. But not England starting quality in the coming Euros.
Just to much hype at the moment after about 12-14 games in the PL.
The Mancs think he’s a Wordlie which should start for England and its not even close.
Mainoo. I think he’s a talented tidy player with what looks like great potential. But not England starting quality in the coming Euros.
Just to much hype at the moment after about 12-14 games in the PL.
The Mancs think he’s a Wordlie which should start for England and its not even close.
I think Frank is a very good manager, and could do very well at a big club. I'd much rather they cot either of the other two in that report than him...
Did he end up with more minutes than Thiago?
Buzz killer
Brentford has been terrible since November though.
I think Frank just so fed up with their injuries and Toney that he's lost all heart for the project.
Just waiting for a big club to come in for him and wondering what's taking so long.
Loves a punt so he does.
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