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So, BR then...

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Gerry_A_Trick said:
We spent 115 million or so, we had the money, we just chose to spread it a little more thinly. We could have not bought two or three players and bought a 40m player, United were able to do it, we just didn't chose to.

Nobody of course would directly replace him, but we didn't buy a single player that replaces anything that he did. We bought players that we already had versions of.

Lambert - Borini
Lovren - Agger
Markovic - Ibe
Moreno - Flanagan/Enrique
Manquillo - Johnson
Can - Lucas/Gerrard
Lallana - Henderson/Coutinho
Balotelli - Suarez

We have at best, slightly improved in some positions, and bulked up the squad. But the Suarez quality that we had last season has not been close to being replaced. That's why it was not a good summer.

We've succeeded in being a more rounded average team, rather than a quality team hoping for very few injuries.
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I think your criticism is excessive, and too general. I think we desperately needed to increase the depth of the squad. We were right to sign two new full backs, IMO that will yield a big improvement as the season develops. A player in the Markovic mould was needed, as we only had Sterling last season. Some kind of body in CM was clearly needed, and that Can is a versatile one makes the signing all the more sensible.

These IMO were all correct calls. I think we went wrong, though, in not getting a keeper, in not replacing Skrtel and dealing with the Sakho issue, and in not having a clear enough plan for how the attack would set up, either as a front 3 or continuing with a 2.
 
They key for me is that all of this is long-term. Aside from Lambert we'll get improvement out of all of his signings. Ibe will come back next year a far better player than he would have done with sporadic appearances here and there, and our team will be better for it. Ditto Origi

If Brodge can fix the mistakes in his game and continue improving the team whilst also having a long-term strategy and play boss football i'm right behind him

I'm as fickle as anyone else though, and I'l probably want him sacked by December
 
mark1975 said:
Yeah, this laying into Coutinho and dismissing him as inconsistent is getting tiring. He's been largely excellent for the price and has been fairly consistent. He's playing below his standards at the moment, but then he's not got two rapid strikers playing off him at the moment, which is what he's clearly thrived on before.

I do think the committee is a part of it, agreed, but it's difficult to pin point who bought what. I think Sakho was bought because he was available and he fitted FSG's profile, we had the money because we'd missed out on a few attackers, otherwise I don't think we'd have bought him, at least not when we did.
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Fair points, but if there's a lack of pace and movement ahead of Coutinho, it's up to him to adapt his game - be more patient with the ball, keep it simple if needs must and look at other ways of getting through defences.
A lack of movement around him is no excuse for being wasteful and careless.

The best and most creative players are able to adapt their game and that's the standard Coutinho needs to get to if he's to fulfil his undoubted potential.
 
Oliver Twist said:
Neither Suarez nor Torres were from the top shelf. Although I do take your point about what sort of players we bought. I am just not sure that type of player was available to us this summer, though. Transfer fee and wage inflation has taken even that type of second-tier player beyond our budget.
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I agree they weren't, but they had potential to be. I mention Markovic and Balotelli as I think they could be, a much longer shot though.

I don't agree that there was no player of that sort we could have bought. Di Maria, Falcao and Sanchez moved, we could have bought similar with the 100 odd million we had to spend. We chose not to spend that much on players, and spread it out. It was a conscious choice to build the squad at the expense of buying a potentially great player. I think it was a bad one.
 
Gerry_A_Trick said:
I agree they weren't, but they had potential to be. I mention Markovic and Balotelli as I think they could be, a much longer shot though.



I don't agree that there was no player of that sort we could have bought. Di Maria, Falcao and Sanchez moved, we could have bought similar with the 100 odd million we had to spend. We chose not to spend that much on players, and spread it out. It was a conscious choice to build the squad at the expense of buying a potentially great player. I think it was a bad one.
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I don't think we would have paid Di Maria's fee or Falcao's wages. Sanchez was a miss, though, I agree. Way, way, waaaaay too late trying to board that boat.
 
The worrying thing was the Sakho situation for me, its showing some sort of issue in the camp. Brendan doesnt seem to know his best 11 or how to keep all of these players happy. For me he seems to pick who is flavour of the month because they are the new boy.

I thought a few weeks back to sort out our defence we should go 5-3-2 with Sakho, Skrtel and Lovren at the back and Moreno / Johnson as attacking fullbacks (which is what they would be good at)

I cant believe he hasnt seen that as yet.... plus it would mean we take pressure off Stevie G to be fair.... If we had him and Henderson in front of that 3 then a Coutinho in front with Balotelli (possibly) and Sturridge....

Its worrying me how he has lost faith in Coutinho aswell, it wont do him any good keep putting him in and out of the team. I'd still pick him over Lallana any day of the week, you know he will come good with a run of games....

Brendan needs now to play a settled side with a different formation if you ask me.
 
Gerry_A_Trick said:
I agree they weren't, but they had potential to be. I mention Markovic and Balotelli as I think they could be, a much longer shot though.

I don't agree that there was no player of that sort we could have bought. Di Maria, Falcao and Sanchez moved, we could have bought similar with the 100 odd million we had to spend. We chose not to spend that much on players, and spread it out. It was a conscious choice to build the squad at the expense of buying a potentially great player. I think it was a bad one.
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You really think we could have persisted with such a paper thin squad? Our entire attacking flexibility last season basically consisted of choosing either Joe Allen or Coutinho.

Just a normal level of injuries alone would've scuppered us. That's before the large burden of 6 CL games, on top of the still considerable drop in quality you'd see with even a very ambitious attempt at replacing Suarez.
 
We aren't as god this season, so far, due to the lack of movement. We have created fuck all and looked like creating fuck all, is that down to new player gelling\bedding in - a little bit but all of our forward players bar stirling lack pace, the want the play in front of them - none of the forwards move beyond the defenders, those through runs...

That's the issue...

The defence will be shite until MING is gone.
 
peterhague said:
You really think we could have persisted with such a paper thin squad? Our entire attacking flexibility last season basically consisted of choosing either Joe Allen or Coutinho.

Just a normal level of injuries alone would've scuppered us. That's before the large burden of 6 CL games, on top of the still considerable drop in quality you'd see with even a very ambitious attempt at replacing Suarez.
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I don't think we've built it as much as some are suggesting, and a normal level of injuries pretty much is affecting us anyway, because we don't have anyone to replace Sturridge's goals, which is kinda my point.

Take Lallana, Markovic and Balotelli, a combined 61 million.

If we kept Ibe, spent 40-50 on a top class attacker, and 10m on someone like Origi that we could actually have played, would we really be that much worse off?
 
Gerry_A_Trick said:
I don't think we've built it as much as some are suggesting, and a normal level of injuries pretty much is affecting us anyway, because we don't have anyone to replace Sturridge's goals, which is kinda my point.

Take Lallana, Markovic and Balotelli, a combined 61 million.

If we kept Ibe, spent 40-50 on a top class attacker, and 10m on someone like Origi that we could actually have played, would we really be that much worse off?
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I would back you in saying that the Balo and Lallana deals could've been combined and used better on a player like Reus, at say £45m - I'm a big fan of Lallana the player but much less as a signing, which was IMO quite a luxury. So I think that's a fair point. But it does of course lead you back to the original objection of who in the £40-50m bracket could we actually have signed? That is a reasonable question to ask. It doesn't even demand much in the way of detailed knowledge of foreign football, given the status and scarcity of such players, so it's not really valid to plead ignorance. I doubt we could have got Reus. Cavani? Is he really in that class? Didn't Falcao reject us? And Sanchez? Di Maria at £60m and £200k+ a week? Even if we could have secured one of these players, moves for guys like this with 5 or so years left in them are highly risky.
 
peterhague said:
I would back you in saying that the Balo and Lallana deals could've been combined and used better on a player like Reus, at say £45m - I'm a big fan of Lallana the player but much less as a signing, which was IMO quite a luxury. So I think that's a fair point. But it does of course lead you back to the original objection of who in the £40-50m bracket could we actually have signed? That is a reasonable question to ask. It doesn't even demand much in the way of detailed knowledge of foreign football, given the status and scarcity of such players, so it's not really valid to plead ignorance. I doubt we could have got Reus. Cavani? Is he really in that class? Didn't Falcao reject us? And Sanchez? Di Maria at £60m and £200k+ a week? Even if we could have secured one of these players, moves for guys like this with 5 or so years left in them are highly risky.
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Reus is the obvious one, I'm not if he would have come either.

I'm sure we could have convinced Falcao or Sanchez, if we had offered more cash, that's what really convinces players at the end of the day. Why would anyone really go to United this season and not us? It's solely down to money. I can understand the draw of London or of a chance to win a title, but not wanting to go to United this season. I'll give Sanchez a pass, for the London factor, but not Falcao.

These are only the players that have actually come to England too, there has to be other players that we could have bought. I refuse to believe that we could not have found someone better than Balotelli and Lallana for the money we paid, there just has to be. Griezman maybe, I don't know. It seems we put a lot of time into Sanchez, and never really had a back up option in case he didn't happen. Chelsea decided on their targets and got them early.
 
I didn't expect to replace Suarez goals, but I did expect us to bring in a player who could match his movement and harrying, as part of the pressing game. Ballotelli is a good signing, but the issue remains is he good for us.

Defensively, I am concerned that no matter who plays at CB, there's an issue. And yes, the Keeper has had time, and isn't as rock solid as you would want. This points to the Coaches and the Managers.

There's a lot of positives overall, and I don't expect BR to be perfect. He works on his errors, which is big.

But with so many new signings, it was always going to be this way. It's quite par for the course. Definitely let's give him time. To expect us to be on fire right now, wouldn't have been realistic.
 
Its easy to say we could have gotten x or y, but the reality is that we couldnt.
Sanchez wanted to move to Lonodon regardless of money. Reus never wanted to leave. We wanted Remy but that fell through.

We should have bought a goalkeeper, in hindsight. The rest of the signings are good and some even excellent. The squad is much stronger.
Balotelli wouldnt have happened if Remy had signed.

6 games into the season with 3 new defenders and even playing 6 new players in one game. Its to early to be looking for a thread like this imho.
Getting Can, Allen and Sturridge injured hasnt helped either.

Replacing Suarez would always be a bitch mainly because there isnt a player like that in the World. Like for like.
 
BR has a lot of work to do. Three defeats in league already looks pretty shit to say the least. Spending the Suarez cash on a load of players?Not sure it was the way forward. Should have just tried to replace him with another top quality striker. Ballotelli could be his Roy Evans/Stan 'I'm a dogging, woman-beating, twat who still has a job in the media for some unknown reason' Collymore signing.
And for fuck's sake buy a decent goalkeeper.
 
Hansern said:
Is 6 games sufficient when assessing how the new players have performed and how the squad will look for the reminder of the season/January?
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We were talking about BR, his signings and the squad in general, not just the new signings.

Six games is all we have at the minute, so it has to be. We have to assess as we go, we don't have to make final decision now, we can reassess as things change. That's how it has to work work, you make the best guesses for the future based on what you know now and change, if needs be, as new information comes in.

If we look short on a keeper and a striker now, we should be looking and who we can get to strengthen now, and not wait to make judgements on January 1st.
 
Gerry_A_Trick said:
I dunno, I don't watch that much football outside of the league. I guess I think that is the scouts job, I only judge on what I see for us.
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That pretty much says it all Gerry. You either have the well-known world-rated stars, on massive salaries and transfer fees or you have potential. We have gone for the later because the former is a very tough sell for us, even if we could afford them.

This 'we didn't replace Suarez' really gets on my tits because we never could. One of the best 3 players in the world. It was never going to happen. We needed a larger squad, we also needed some high quality players. We may have over-paid for a couple of the players we bought, so what, every team goes there from time to time, if they end up doing the job I don't give a shite.
We may end up finding we have bought a couple of duds, again that happens to every team and every manager, most have nothing better than a 50/50 record in the transfer market, it's a season too early to say if that is the case with this year's guys.

Overall we have much better squad depth, an absolute priority. Will there still be some gaps ? Of course, we were never going to accomplish everything we needed to in one Summer. I still remember some of the bitching on here before Suarez hit top gear. We really need to give them time, as a group and as individuals.
 
Gerry_A_Trick said:
I agree they weren't, but they had potential to be. I mention Markovic and Balotelli as I think they could be, a much longer shot though.

I don't agree that there was no player of that sort we could have bought. Di Maria, Falcao and Sanchez moved, we could have bought similar with the 100 odd million we had to spend. We chose not to spend that much on players, and spread it out. It was a conscious choice to build the squad at the expense of buying a potentially great player. I think it was a bad one.
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Di Maria was way out of our budget. Falcao we tried for but wouldn't agree to his salary demands and Sanchez's missus chose London over Liverpool. We really need to stop dragging these names up as if they were, in the end, viable options. The same as we need to stop saying ... or someone similar, when you can't even name that someone similar.
 
Frogfish said:
Di Maria was way out of our budget. Falcao we tried for but wouldn't agree to his salary demands and Sanchez's missus chose London over Liverpool. We really need to stop dragging these names up as if they were, in the end, viable options. The same as we need to stop saying ... or someone similar, when you can't even name that someone similar.
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I agree with most you have said in your last two posts but I'm not sure about this one. We were way slow out of the blocks and by the time we started to get our shit together he was sold on Arsenal as Wenger had been speaking to him for weeks.

I think we fucked up badly with Sanchez. We should have been clearly in pole position and he was just the player we need at a price we would have paid.
 
Gerry_A_Trick said:
I don't think we've built it as much as some are suggesting, and a normal level of injuries pretty much is affecting us anyway, because we don't have anyone to replace Sturridge's goals, which is kinda my point.

Take Lallana, Markovic and Balotelli, a combined 61 million.

If we kept Ibe, spent 40-50 on a top class attacker, and 10m on someone like Origi that we could actually have played, would we really be that much worse off?
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We've had this Last Season's Squad / This Season's Squad comparison up here a number of times. There's some very serious blinkered vision going on if you think Cissokho, Moses, Johnson, Aspas, Alberto, Assaidi are better, or even close to being the equivalent, of those we've brought in.

Injuries : we are nearly the very worst (2nd) in the league for injuries this season (only United are worse), that is nowhere near a normal level. Last season we were in the middle of the pack but that was also, for us with a small squad, an above normal average per player.

IMHO, out of all of the players we've bought, there isn't one that can be classified as looking a total failure after just SIX games FFS.
 
Oliver Twist said:
I agree with most you have said in your last two posts but I'm not sure about this one. We were way slow out of the blocks and by the time we started to get our shit together he was sold on Arsenal as Wenger had been speaking to him for weeks.

I think we fucked up badly with Sanchez. We should have been clearly in pole position and he was just the player we need at a price we would have paid.
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OT - it was reported all over that his missus didn't want to come to Liverpool. She's a model, who can blame her with the opportunities that abound being based in London with Paris 90 mins away.

BTW let me just add two things on Sanchez, he looks great on the ball .. but hasn't exactly been that effective so far (yes, I know, just 6 matches, like the players getting laid into by some) and isn't even an automative first choice, it seems, for Wenger. Secondly he isn't a striker per se so wouldn't have been a direct replacement for Suarez anyway.
 
So, is the suggestion that we couldn't have done better this summer? That we did as well as possible?

If so, that's pretty depressing.
 
I've said it before but Costa was the surprise omission for me. Given we'd triggered his release clause last summer only for him to sign a new contract and have a stellar season, you'd have thought we'd have been all over his 32m new clause as soon as it was apparent he might leave.

We must have known Suarez was likely to go so we had all last season to wrap up the Costa deal ahead of Chelsea.
 
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