100m spent and we are in exactly the same position we were in when rafa left

[peterhague]

yeh, themn should come to drinkies next time. so should vlad, btw, so i can talk him through the basics. it'll look something like this:

[flash=480,360]http://www.youtube.com/v/oddWeqog5AY[/flash]


just kidding!!!

 

[themn]

I hate you, Neil.

 

[Farkmaster]

You find the disaster. For me it's the people that dismantled an empire, not the man who won the most and highest percentage of games, won the biggest honors and had us thinking most imperially again. You could also point to Houllier, who did much but also crumbled under the pressure in the end.

Perhaps you see it just as a parade of failure because expectations for this great club are high. Great, that's been my life as a liverpool supporter. Hurray.

By the way, we're in a better position now in terms of squad than when Rafa left, I don't think there's much argument there, though I don't think we're anywhere near Rafa's best sides. To have a good bench, there should be some way of playing your best team, then introducing players who can change things and score goals. We can't score with our first team or our squad with any regularity. We should be much better off given the money spent, but we've dealt with that before haven't we?

These are two separate arguments though, and I think they are getting muddled.

So is the table for some reason... nevermind.

 

[Red Mullet]

[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=48319.msg1465426#msg1465426 date=1326750098]

[size=1em]You find the disaster. For me it's the people that dismantled an empire, not the man who won the most and highest percentage of games, won the biggest honors and had us thinking most imperially again. You could also point to Houllier, who did much but also crumbled under the pressure in the end.[/size]

[size=1em]Perhaps you see it just as a parade of failure because expectations for this great club are high. Great, that's been my life as a liverpool supporter. Hurray.[/size]

[size=1em]By the way, we're in a better position now in terms of squad than when Rafa left, I don't think there's much argument there, though I don't think we're anywhere near Rafa's best sides. To have a good bench, there should be some way of playing your best team, then introducing players who can change things and score goals. We can't score with our first team or our squad with any regularity. We should be much better off given the money spent, but we've dealt with that before haven't we? [/size]
[size=1em]
These are two separate arguments though, and I think they are getting muddled.[/size]

Name[/c][/t]NationalityFromToMWDL%[A]L1L2FAFLCSECUCUSNotes Record[/t]HonoursList of Liverpool F.C. managers [/t] [/t] Ronnie MoranEngland[/t]22 February 199115 April 19911041540.0000000000[29][C] Graeme SounessScotland[/t]16 April 199128 January 199415765474541.4000100000[30][D] Roy EvansEngland[/t]31 January 199412 November 1998226116575351.3300010000[31] Roy EvansGérard HoullierEngland France[/t]16 July 199812 November 19981876538.8900010000[32] Gérard HoullierFrance[/t]16 July 199824 May 2004325165817950.7700121011[33][E] Rafael BenítezSpain[/t]16 June 20043 June 2010350194777955.4300101101[34] Roy HodgsonEngland[/t]1 July 20108 January 201131139941.9400000000[35] Kenny DalglishScotland8 January 2011Present day37199951.3500000000

[/quote]


Has a bot taken over Farky?

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48319.msg1465098#msg1465098 date=1326711458]
Here's the reality:

Bought for the future:
Coates
Henderson

Both still look like they need to develop more but both look like they could be good.

Bought for now:

Adam - overall he's been a positive, despite some poor games.
Enrique - excellent.
Bellamy - cheap as chips and good.
Downing - poor signing.

Carroll is somewhere between the two and he's been poor thus far.

We're building, and I don't think league position is all that important this season.
[/quote]

Actually, here's the reality:

We finished 6th last season, spent 100 million pounds and now we're 7th.

Which according to you is "midtable".

 

[SummerOnions]

The real issue seems to be to me that kenny is as stubborn as fuck and wants to prove his signings are better than Hodgson's and Rafa's hence the lack of playing time for Maxi, the shipping out of Meireles and the unfathomable fact tht Downing plays almost every game.

 

[Red Mullet]

Question: if anyone of you was the manager of Liverpool Football Club and you made a decision (big one) on a player, would you hold on to that decision and have faith in your beliefs or would you fold cos fans and media says so?


Especially, when you know more from the training sessions, the daily meetings with your coaching staff and have come up with the a game plan to win trophies that people with a lot of power and money has bought into?


Just asking...

 

[Modo]

You know what baffles me?

When Dalglish joined he pretty much told Cole to fuck off and barely gave him chance.
Of course I applauded that decision but where's the ruthlessness now?

Apparently the only players getting that treatment are those he didn't buy.

Here's where I think Benitez differs from Dalglish.

If I remember it correctly wasn't Josemi first choice as soon as Benitez took over?

And when it was apparent that he was shit he reverted back to Finnan, or am I just imagining this?

 

[Red Mullet]

Once again Modo, you're assuming what the fans sees is what Dalglish sees. You're assuming you know as much as he does and what he and his coaching staff has put in place to right wrongs in order to execute the plan they have put together.


So asking where this ruthlessness is, is kinda mis-placed because you're basing it only on what you have seen and know.

 

[Modo]

[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=48319.msg1465582#msg1465582 date=1326768120]
Once again Modo, you're assuming what the fans sees is what Dalglish sees. You're assuming you know as much as he does and what he and his coaching staff has put in place to right wrongs in order to execute the plan they have put together.


So asking where this ruthlessness is, is kinda mis-placed because you're basing it only on what you have seen and know.
[/quote]

Granted, but if the plan isn't working (maybe you're arguing that it is) shouldn't it be changed?
Hence the Josemi - Finnan reference.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Modo link=topic=48319.msg1465580#msg1465580 date=1326767317]
You know what baffles me?

When Dalglish joined he pretty much told Cole to fuck off and barely gave him chance.
Of course I applauded that decision but where's the ruthlessness now?

Apparently the only players getting that treatment are those he didn't buy.

Here's where I think Benitez differs from Dalglish.

If I remember it correctly wasn't Josemi first choice as soon as Benitez took over?

And when it was apparent that he was shit he reverted back to Finnan, or am I just imagining this?
[/quote]

I read Kenny's autobiography over Xmas (some relative gave it to me for Xmas) (it was fucking awful if you're asking too, font so fucking big you got about 5 words to a page, and just a big wankathon about all his mates at Liverpool over time)... and anyway, I found it interesting that he devoted several lines to Aquilani. and how he sat in the directors box (when Rafa was managing) and longed for Aquivagina to do well due to his brilliant technique, eye for a pass, etc. He didn't dedicate such words to many players in that god-forsaken book, so it took me aback.

And then to your point; he takes over as boss and bombs the spindly Italian fucker out the door asap. interesting.

 

[Red Mullet]

[quote author=Modo link=topic=48319.msg1465584#msg1465584 date=1326768374]
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=48319.msg1465582#msg1465582 date=1326768120]
Once again Modo, you're assuming what the fans sees is what Dalglish sees. You're assuming you know as much as he does and what he and his coaching staff has put in place to right wrongs in order to execute the plan they have put together.


So asking where this ruthlessness is, is kinda mis-placed because you're basing it only on what you have seen and know.
[/quote]

Granted, but if the plan isn't working (maybe you're arguing that it is) shouldn't it be changed?
Hence the Josemi - Finnan reference.
[/quote]


No, not arguing a thing. Just pointing out we, outside the club, have little or no knowledge of what's going on inside the club. They can see where things are failing and probably putting things in place to to rectify it. We need patience to see their plan, and what changes they are making.


Little obnoxious to say "where's the ruthlessness?", "I'm getting impatient with the same old same old", "Kenny out, rafa's better" when we really only know half the information at best.


I'm not saying everything is peachy keen, it isn't, but unlike Hodgeson, we have Kenny Dalglish and Steve Clarke that knows how to win and have a track record of doing so. This doesn't mean they can't be questioned but the disrespectful way people go about it..... really, in their first full year/season?

 

[Modo]

[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=48319.msg1465586#msg1465586 date=1326769337]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=48319.msg1465584#msg1465584 date=1326768374]
[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=48319.msg1465582#msg1465582 date=1326768120]
Once again Modo, you're assuming what the fans sees is what Dalglish sees. You're assuming you know as much as he does and what he and his coaching staff has put in place to right wrongs in order to execute the plan they have put together.


So asking where this ruthlessness is, is kinda mis-placed because you're basing it only on what you have seen and know.
[/quote]

Granted, but if the plan isn't working (maybe you're arguing that it is) shouldn't it be changed?
Hence the Josemi - Finnan reference.
[/quote]


No, not arguing a thing. Just pointing out we, outside the club, have little or no knowledge of what's going on inside the club. They can see where things are failing and probably putting things in place to to rectify it. We need patience to see their plan, and what changes they are making.


Little obnoxious to say "where's the ruthlessness?", "I'm getting impatient with the same old same old", "Kenny out, rafa's better" when we really only know half the information at best.


I'm not saying everything is peachy keen, it isn't, but unlike Hodgeson, we have Kenny Dalglish and Steve Clarke that knows how to win and have a track record of doing so. This doesn't mean they can't be questioned but the disrespectful way people go about it..... really, in their first full year/season?
[/quote]

I can't argue that, of course they know more than us about the team.
But that's the whole point of a forum I guess, a place to air our worries and sometimes misguided criticism.

Three years ago we were competing with the best teams in the world. We've had a dry spell trophy-wise for 5 going on 6 years. I don't think the criticism is solely directed at Dalglish, many of us are just a bit frustrated that we're not able to climb out of the ditch despite the £100 Million boost last year.

I personally expected a meteoric rise like during the first couple of years under Benitez but none of us expected him to win us the CL which also convinced Gerrard to stay(people tend to forget that), and he got us to the League cup final (people tend to forget that as well).

Sure we're halfway in to the season but I'm not seeing any positive signs, well except the League cup campaign.

I've stated plenty of times that I'm willing to give Kenny time. Sadly we expect more from the club than the current team can achieve but that's due to other reasons.

 

[ILD]

[quote author=themn link=topic=48319.msg1465401#msg1465401 date=1326747869]
It's ok, chaps, I had the spat under control.

Seeing as Dave wasn't around.....*tuts*
[/quote]

I thought I was off the clocks. Oops.

 

[Richey]

Going by results we're clearly no better off but not sure we're much worse off either. We still have the league cup, same as Benitez did in his first season and we can still finish 5th, same as Benitez did in his first season.

There hasn't been an instant return to glory, some signings haven't worked out so well yet. That's life. Surely the least Kenny deserves is the chance to correct any errors and improve things in the summer?

 

[RedZeppelin]

[quote author=Red Mullet link=topic=48319.msg1465576#msg1465576 date=1326766483]
Question: if anyone of you was the manager of Liverpool Football Club and you made a decision (big one) on a player, would you hold on to that decision and have faith in your beliefs or would you fold cos fans and media says so?


Especially, when you know more from the training sessions, the daily meetings with your coaching staff and have come up with the a game plan to win trophies that people with a lot of power and money has bought into?


Just asking...
[/quote]

Well we can all have faith in our beliefs but then realise things haven't worked out and then adapt or put a plan in place to address this . I believe it's basic management skills.

And fair enough he knows more than we do but end of the day what matters is match day , that's what we see and are commenting on . If a player is not doing it there then who gives a fuck what coaches and training session say .

oh and i will be perfectly patient if these mistakes are seen and something is being done to rectify them. . The fear is considering the ages and how much we spent on some shite , we might be stuck with them for a long time .

 

[Modo]

Re: Re: 100m spent and we are in exactly the same position we were in when rafa left

[quote author=Richey link=topic=48319.msg1#msg1 date=1326788672]
Going by results we're clearly no better off but not sure we're much worse off either. We still have the league cup, same as Benitez did in his first season and we can still finish 5th, same as Benitez did in his first season.

There hasn't been an instant return to glory, some signings haven't worked out so well yet. That's life. Surely the least Kenny deserves is the chance to correct any errors and improve things in the summer?
[/quote]
Are you trying to sweep the CL win under the rug?

 

[Richey]

Fuck off. Off course I'm not. Why would I?

you may have noticed though that we are not in the CL. Not even a genius like Benitez could win a trophy if we're not even participating.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=48319.msg1465360#msg1465360 date=1326744820]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=48319.msg1465354#msg1465354 date=1326744058]
WUM or not , I would not disagree to be honest.
What we have, although from the selection on Saturday you would not think it, is some strength in depth again.
You just have to look at our bench these days against a Rafa bench to see the difference. What we are short of is two quality players, we need another striker regardless of how Carroll performs or does not, and we need a good wide man on the right. We also need fucking Downing to start performing and stop fucking around.
In short we are in a much better place than we were under Rafa, certainly in the last half of his reign, the green shoots are there , if we had a striker that formed a partnership with Suarez we would be very strong.

regards
[/quote]

we're much better off than in 2007/08 and 2008/09?

unless you're referring to our ownership situation and nothing else, that is absolute bilge.

some things on here i just can't quite fathom coming from a normally functioning brain, but hey ho.
[/quote]

The bench we had under Rafa's reign was too often fucking shit, that was his point. We might not have the couple of key players we need but we've got a platform of strength in depth by having quality on the bench again. We had the likes of El Zhar & N'Gog, Gonzalez, Leto, Voronin, Paletta etc warming the bench for years, we've now got the likes of Carragher, Coates, Aurelio, Shelvey, Bellamy, Maxi etc on there and some 'good' young players that have been spotted locally, instead of ones that we've invested a ridiculous amount of money in who in reality aren't as good as some of the local lads.

Rafa did some great stuff and I'm sure Vlad would be the first to acknowledge that, you don't have to jump on the defensive at every criticism. He didn't shit gold. Maybe you should remember that Rafa's domestic reign didn't just consist of the 2008/2009 season and that by and large he fucked his own good work up with his stubbornness, poor man-management and inability to keep players happy (by completely cutting them out) once they were on the fringes, therefore destroying any chance of building a good 'squad'.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=48319.msg1465375#msg1465375 date=1326745931]
rafa's last season amounted to 1/6 of his reign; the second half of his reign constituted 2007/08, 2008/09, and 2009/10.

so i hope for the sake of Vlad's maths skills he wasn't referring to his last season.
[/quote]

2009/2010 7th
2008/2009 2nd
2007/2008 4th
2006/2007 3rd
2005/2006 3rd
2004/2005 5th

What are you trying to say Pete? It was great we finished in touching distance once in six years? So it's not fair when discussing parallels between Kenny and Rafa (in what is Kenny's first full season) to point out that Rafa finished 7th in 2010? Perhaps we should just mention that he finished 5th in his first season then! Without City and Spurs to compete with, it's also worth pointing out.

 

[keniget]

In the first half of his tenure Rafa got more of his key purchases right than wrong. Alonso, Masher, Torres, Reina, Agger and Srktel were all fantastic buys. Later on I'd argue that Johnson was a good buy too but I know that's more controversial. Obviously the Keane and Aquilani transfers finished us off given the ownership situation.

At the moment I don't think Kenny and Comolli have the same success rate. They need to turn that around in the summer because I don't think they've left much margin for failure.

- Adam has his pluses but overall I'm not a huge fan.
- Downing was a waste of money.
- Carroll is fucking dreadful.
- Henderson is decent but we'll have to wait and see as to whether he was worth the investment (in terms of money, timing of his transfer and faith on the pitch).

Suarez and Enrique are the undoubted successes. Bellamy is more of a minor note because he can't be classed as a key transfer. He was bought to bolster the squad and it's a sign of the overall failure to reinforce adequately that he is being seen more than that.

 

[Modo]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=48319.msg1465632#msg1465632 date=1326790335]
Fuck off. Off course I'm not. Why would I?

you may have noticed though that we are not in the CL. Not even a genius like Benitez could win a trophy if we're not even participating.
[/quote]

I guess you didn't, but how can't you take into account the numerous games we had to play in Europe and the small squad and still say "Going by results we're clearly no better off but not sure we're much worse off either."

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Modo link=topic=48319.msg1465642#msg1465642 date=1326791302]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=48319.msg1465632#msg1465632 date=1326790335]
Fuck off. Off course I'm not. Why would I?

you may have noticed though that we are not in the CL. Not even a genius like Benitez could win a trophy if we're not even participating.
[/quote]

I guess you didn't, but how can't you take into account the numerous games we had to play in Europe and the small squad and still say "Going by results we're clearly no better off but not sure we're much worse off either."
[/quote]

The small squad is pretty much the same size as the one we have now, give or take a few players either way.

Take your point about extra games, but by this stage that only amounted to about 6 more, one of which was before the season started so not much more than a glorified friendly in many ways. And we didn't even do especially well in the group games if you remember correctly.

At this stage in terms of competitions both Benitez and Dalglish were/are in the record isn't so different.

 

[SummerOnions]

He should have at least next season, this is a long-term plan.

 

[vantage]

Has Ross hacked Vlads account to give himself some support?

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=48319.msg1465637#msg1465637 date=1326790935]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=48319.msg1465375#msg1465375 date=1326745931]
rafa's last season amounted to 1/6 of his reign; the second half of his reign constituted 2007/08, 2008/09, and 2009/10.

so i hope for the sake of Vlad's maths skills he wasn't referring to his last season.
[/quote]

2009/2010 7th
2008/2009 2nd
2007/2008 4th
2006/2007 3rd
2005/2006 3rd
2004/2005 5th

What are you trying to say Pete? It was great we finished in touching distance once in six years? So it's not fair when discussing parallels between Kenny and Rafa (in what is Kenny's first full season) to point out that Rafa finished 7th in 2010? Perhaps we should just mention that he finished 5th in his first season then! Without City and Spurs to compete with, it's also worth pointing out.
[/quote]

what are you trying to say? the CL is worthless?

look, i'm not getting into this with you. i like you, so i don't wanna end up abusing you, because that's how fucking offensive i find your views on benitez.

 

[rubans]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=48319.msg1465637#msg1465637 date=1326790935]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=48319.msg1465375#msg1465375 date=1326745931]
rafa's last season amounted to 1/6 of his reign; the second half of his reign constituted 2007/08, 2008/09, and 2009/10.

so i hope for the sake of Vlad's maths skills he wasn't referring to his last season.
[/quote]

2009/2010 7th
2008/2009 2nd
2007/2008 4th
2006/2007 3rd
2005/2006 3rd
2004/2005 5th

What are you trying to say Pete? It was great we finished in touching distance once in six years? So it's not fair when discussing parallels between Kenny and Rafa (in what is Kenny's first full season) to point out that Rafa finished 7th in 2010? Perhaps we should just mention that he finished 5th in his first season then! Without City and Spurs to compete with, it's also worth pointing out.
[/quote]
and regular CL runs into semis/final...
Regardless, I don't think the bench is that strong under Kenny, we bough quantity but how many of those players would you throw on in last 70 mins to turn a game with any real belief?
We rarely come back from 1-0 to win, how many times have we done this? once in the leaugue?
With Kenny, I don't get the feeling he will finish any higher than 6th, and the league overall is not as powerfull as it was 3 yrs ago. We are struggling to keep upto pace with 4th and if we finish againt 6th, what next ?

 

[peterhague]

Dudek
Kirkland
Finnan
Josemi - £2m
Hyypia
Henchoz
Carragher
Whitbread
Riise
Warnock
Hamann
Diao
Biscan
Alonso - £10.5m
Gerrard
Nunez
Garcia - £6m
Kewell
Smicer
Sinama-Pongolle
Baros
Cisse


Reina
Doni - £1m
Johnson
Kelly
Agger
Skrtel
Carragher
Coates - £7m
Enrique - £6m
Aurelio
Lucas
Spearing
Adam - £7m
Henderson - £16m
Shelvey
Gerrard
Maxi
Downing - £19m
Kuyt
Bellamy
Suarez - £23m
Carroll - £35m


hopefully the above is enough to show how biased it is to look at this season's performance and compare it like for like with rafa's first season. not only is the current squad clearly stronger, but whereas benitez had £18.5m to spend to bring in his own players, kenny and commolli have had over £100m! even if you said that that £18.5m is more like £40m these days, it's still a huge gap.

it'd be fairer to compare this season with 05/06 imo, when we had a squad of roughly similar quality and depth and benitez had been able to put a comparable stamp of his own on it. that season we got 82 points in the league: er, good luck following that, kenny.

 

[Modo]

Thank you Peter.

 

[Mystic]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=48319.msg1465766#msg1465766 date=1326807532]
Dudek
Kirkland
Finnan
Josemi - £2m
Hyypia
Henchoz
Carragher
Whitbread
Riise
Warnock
Hamann
Diao
Biscan
Alonso - £10.5m
Gerrard
Nunez
Garcia - £6m
Kewell
Smicer
Sinama-Pongolle
Baros
Cisse


Reina
Doni - £1m
Johnson
Kelly
Agger
Skrtel
Carragher
Coates - £7m
Enrique - £6m
Aurelio
Lucas
Spearing
Adam - £7m
Henderson - £16m
Shelvey
Gerrard
Maxi
Downing - £19m
Kuyt
Bellamy
Suarez - £23m
Carroll - £35m


hopefully the above is enough to show how biased it is to look at this season's performance and compare it like for like with rafa's first season. not only is the current squad clearly stronger, but whereas benitez had £18.5m to spend to bring in his own players, kenny and commolli have had over £100m! even if you said that that £18.5m is more like £40m these days, it's still a huge gap.

it'd be fairer to compare this season with 05/06 imo, when we had a squad of roughly similar quality and depth and benitez had been able to put a comparable stamp of his own on it. that season we got 82 points in the league: er, good luck following that, kenny.
[/quote]

Cisse was 14million, I don't care if Rafa didn't buy him, he was bought in his first window.