100m spent and we are in exactly the same position we were in when rafa left

[peterhague]

[quote author=Mystic link=topic=48319.msg1465771#msg1465771 date=1326808082]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=48319.msg1465766#msg1465766 date=1326807532]
Dudek
Kirkland
Finnan
Josemi - £2m
Hyypia
Henchoz
Carragher
Whitbread
Riise
Warnock
Hamann
Diao
Biscan
Alonso - £10.5m
Gerrard
Nunez
Garcia - £6m
Kewell
Smicer
Sinama-Pongolle
Baros
Cisse


Reina
Doni - £1m
Johnson
Kelly
Agger
Skrtel
Carragher
Coates - £7m
Enrique - £6m
Aurelio
Lucas
Spearing
Adam - £7m
Henderson - £16m
Shelvey
Gerrard
Maxi
Downing - £19m
Kuyt
Bellamy
Suarez - £23m
Carroll - £35m


hopefully the above is enough to show how biased it is to look at this season's performance and compare it like for like with rafa's first season. not only is the current squad clearly stronger, but whereas benitez had £18.5m to spend to bring in his own players, kenny and commolli have had over £100m! even if you said that that £18.5m is more like £40m these days, it's still a huge gap.

it'd be fairer to compare this season with 05/06 imo, when we had a squad of roughly similar quality and depth and benitez had been able to put a comparable stamp of his own on it. that season we got 82 points in the league: er, good luck following that, kenny.
[/quote]

Cisse was 14million, I don't care if Rafa didn't buy him, he was bought in his first window.
[/quote]

well i do care that he didn't buy him, because it's relevant; and i don't care what you think, because you're wrong.

 

[Fabio]

Re: Re: 100m spent and we are in exactly the same position we were in when rafa left

[quote author=Mystic link=topic=48319.msg1#msg1 date=1326808082]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=48319.msg1465766#msg1465766 date=1326807532]
Dudek
Kirkland
Finnan
Josemi - £2m
Hyypia
Henchoz
Carragher
Whitbread
Riise
Warnock
Hamann
Diao
Biscan
Alonso - £10.5m
Gerrard
Nunez
Garcia - £6m
Kewell
Smicer
Sinama-Pongolle
Baros
Cisse


Reina
Doni - £1m
Johnson
Kelly
Agger
Skrtel
Carragher
Coates - £7m
Enrique - £6m
Aurelio
Lucas
Spearing
Adam - £7m
Henderson - £16m
Shelvey
Gerrard
Maxi
Downing - £19m
Kuyt
Bellamy
Suarez - £23m
Carroll - £35m


hopefully the above is enough to show how biased it is to look at this season's performance and compare it like for like with rafa's first season. not only is the current squad clearly stronger, but whereas benitez had £18.5m to spend to bring in his own players, kenny and commolli have had over £100m! even if you said that that £18.5m is more like £40m these days, it's still a huge gap.

it'd be fairer to compare this season with 05/06 imo, when we had a squad of roughly similar quality and depth and benitez had been able to put a comparable stamp of his own on it. that season we got 82 points in the league: er, good luck following that, kenny.
[/quote]

Cisse was 14million, I don't care if Rafa didn't buy him, he was bought in his first window.
[/quote]

good point

Who knows how rafa could have spent that money. Perhaps the aimar/alves/simao that was always promised?

 

[HC]

Cisse was nothing to do with Rafa and I suspect Suarez was nothing to do with Kenny?

 

[keniget]

You mention inflation but there are still other factors to consider, for example:

- You compared two transfer windows under Kenny to one under Rafa
- We'd just sold our star player for a club record fee and our new owners stupidly wanted to make a statement (see: Carroll)

 

[Fabio]

Re: Re: 100m spent and we are in exactly the same position we were in when rafa left

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=48319.msg1#msg1 date=1326808197]
[quote author=Mystic link=topic=48319.msg1465771#msg1465771 date=1326808082]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=48319.msg1465766#msg1465766 date=1326807532]
Dudek
Kirkland
Finnan
Josemi - £2m
Hyypia
Henchoz
Carragher
Whitbread
Riise
Warnock
Hamann
Diao
Biscan
Alonso - £10.5m
Gerrard
Nunez
Garcia - £6m
Kewell
Smicer
Sinama-Pongolle
Baros
Cisse


Reina
Doni - £1m
Johnson
Kelly
Agger
Skrtel
Carragher
Coates - £7m
Enrique - £6m
Aurelio
Lucas
Spearing
Adam - £7m
Henderson - £16m
Shelvey
Gerrard
Maxi
Downing - £19m
Kuyt
Bellamy
Suarez - £23m
Carroll - £35m


hopefully the above is enough to show how biased it is to look at this season's performance and compare it like for like with rafa's first season. not only is the current squad clearly stronger, but whereas benitez had £18.5m to spend to bring in his own players, kenny and commolli have had over £100m! even if you said that that £18.5m is more like £40m these days, it's still a huge gap.

it'd be fairer to compare this season with 05/06 imo, when we had a squad of roughly similar quality and depth and benitez had been able to put a comparable stamp of his own on it. that season we got 82 points in the league: er, good luck following that, kenny.
[/quote]

Cisse was 14million, I don't care if Rafa didn't buy him, he was bought in his first window.
[/quote]

well i do care that he didn't buy him, because it's relevant; and i don't care what you think, because you're wrong.
[/quote]

It's relevant though. Rafa could have spent that money elsewhere, potentially on a better striker

 

[Fabio]

Re: Re: 100m spent and we are in exactly the same position we were in when rafa left

[quote author=keniget link=topic=48319.msg1#msg1 date=1326808302]
You mention inflation but there are still other factors to consider, for example:

- You compared two transfer windows under Kenny to one under Rafa
- We'd just sold our star player for a club record fee and our new owners stupidly wanted to make a statement (see: Carroll)
[/quote]

^^^
Cracking

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=48319.msg1465775#msg1465775 date=1326808302]
You mention inflation but there are still other factors to consider, for example:

- You compared two transfer windows under Kenny to one under Rafa
- We'd just sold our star player for a club record fee and our new owners stupidly wanted to make a statement (see: Carroll)
[/quote]

1. well that makes the case more so for rafa, no? alright by me!
2. i've frequently said on here it shouldn't be assumed that carroll was all kenny's doing. i'm always totally ignored so i thought that was te basis that was safe to debate on.



Fabio: i think Mystic was saying that i'm being overly generous to rafa by not including cisse in part of the figures of money he had to spend on the squad. i mean, i get your point that he could've bought someone better, but as far as analysing that squad goes, i think the only fair thing is to leave him out of the equation.

 

[SummerOnions]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=48319.msg1465775#msg1465775 date=1326808302]
You mention inflation but there are still other factors to consider, for example:

- You compared two transfer windows under Kenny to one under Rafa
- We'd just sold our star player for a club record fee and our new owners stupidly wanted to make a statement (see: Carroll)
[/quote]

We did lose Owen when Benitez arrived though.

 

[Richey]

If we are talking about the inherited squad then of course Cisse should not be considered a Benitez signing. He was here when Benitez arrived. No argument there.

What it is worth bearing in mind though is the fact that Benitez took over a squad that was already in the Champions League. Dalglish has not. Although many of those names are enough to make us wince a bit now (and with that in mind, you forgot Traore - I know its always a a temptation to do so, so I do understand) there was a lot of quality too.

 

[Richey]

Re: Re: 100m spent and we are in exactly the same position we were in when rafa left

[quote author=Fascistio link=topic=48319.msg1465776#msg1465776 date=1326808322]

It's relevant though. Rafa could have spent that money elsewhere, potentially on a better striker
[/quote]

He tried to do that in the next window anyway. Remember what we ended up with?

 

[peterhague]

actually i'd have thought that Rafa having to compete in the CL is yet another point in his favour when considering relative league performances. isn't that what people were saying? no europe this year, so every oportunity to concentrate on the league?

just saying, like.

[quote author=Richey link=topic=48319.msg1465784#msg1465784 date=1326809186]
[quote author=Fascistio link=topic=48319.msg1465776#msg1465776 date=1326808322]

It's relevant though. Rafa could have spent that money elsewhere, potentially on a better striker
[/quote]

He tried to do that in the next window anyway. Remember what we ended up with?
[/quote]

yes. a player who looks like fucking god compared to andy carroll!

and at a fracton of the cost!

 

[Modo]

Re: Re: 100m spent and we are in exactly the same position we were in when rafa left

[quote author=Richey link=topic=48319.msg1#msg1 date=1326809001]
If we are talking about the inherited squad then of course Cisse should not be considered a Benitez signing. He was here when Benitez arrived. No argument there.

What it is worth bearing in mind though is the fact that Benitez took over a squad that was already in the Champions League. Dalglish has not. Although many of those names are enough to make us wince a bit now (and with that in mind, you forgot Traore - I know its always a a temptation to do so, so I do understand) there was a lot of quality too.
[/quote]
Being in the CL shouldnt be used as an excuse against Benitez. I'd go so far as to say that Benitez had it tougher because of the CL.

 

[Richey]

Its a point yes, as I acknowledged earlier in the thread, but by this stage in the season that hadn't actually amounted to that many extra games, and the ones it did amount to were hardly impressive performances either. We really started looking great in the CL in the second half of the season.

The point about the team having qualified for the CL was to illustrate that the squad was in a healthier position than the one we had when Dalglish took over.

Yes Carroll looks poor but at least he looked like he could be a decent player for us (still could be). It was pretty obvious that Morientes wouldn't be (along with Pellegrino, who showed up around the same time).

I'm certainly not slagging off the entire Benitez reign. Far from it. He signed some great players for us and had the team playing great stuff at times. All I am saying is that he didn't turn things around overnight. There were areas where he struggled in his first season and it took time. Is it too much to ask for Kenny to also have that time?

 

[Richey]

Re: Re: 100m spent and we are in exactly the same position we were in when rafa left

[quote author=Modo link=topic=48319.msg1465787#msg1465787 date=1326809845]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=48319.msg1#msg1 date=1326809001]
If we are talking about the inherited squad then of course Cisse should not be considered a Benitez signing. He was here when Benitez arrived. No argument there.

What it is worth bearing in mind though is the fact that Benitez took over a squad that was already in the Champions League. Dalglish has not. Although many of those names are enough to make us wince a bit now (and with that in mind, you forgot Traore - I know its always a a temptation to do so, so I do understand) there was a lot of quality too.
[/quote]
Being in the CL shouldnt be used as an excuse against Benitez. I'd go so far as to say that Benitez had it tougher because of the CL.
[/quote]

Didn't we cover this earlier?

I am not attacking him because he was in the CL, not at all. The point is that the squad he took over had already qualified for the CL, so it can't have been that bad.

 

[Asbo]

Everyone is forgetting the horrific injuries we had in Rafa's first year, we didn't have a set back four for almost the entire season and even our number 1 goalkeeper only came in about 10th place in that seasons apperances, even Gerrad and Hamman both misses about 20 games each just in the Prem that season too, it was a fucking horrible horrible season injury wise, and yet we got to 2 Cup Finals and won Big Ears, fucking remarkable doesn't come into it!

 

[Asbo]

Anyone who is suggesting Kenny should be removed is a fucking 'tard, and deserves a fucking slap, he's only just done a year in charge, and is only halfway through his first full season, some people are fucking idiots.

 

[Modo]

Re: Re: Re: 100m spent and we are in exactly the same position we were in when rafa left

[quote author=Richey link=topic=48319.msg1#msg1 date=1326810057]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=48319.msg1465787#msg1465787 date=1326809845]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=48319.msg1#msg1 date=1326809001]
If we are talking about the inherited squad then of course Cisse should not be considered a Benitez signing. He was here when Benitez arrived. No argument there.

What it is worth bearing in mind though is the fact that Benitez took over a squad that was already in the Champions League. Dalglish has not. Although many of those names are enough to make us wince a bit now (and with that in mind, you forgot Traore - I know its always a a temptation to do so, so I do understand) there was a lot of quality too.
[/quote]
Being in the CL shouldnt be used as an excuse against Benitez. I'd go so far as to say that Benitez had it tougher because of the CL.
[/quote]

Didn't we cover this earlier?

I am not attacking him because he was in the CL, not at all. The point is that the squad he took over had already qualified for the CL, so it can't have been that bad.
[/quote]oh OK. Fair point. That squad also had Owen tbf.

 

[Asbo]

Re: Re: Re: 100m spent and we are in exactly the same position we were in when rafa left

[quote author=Modo link=topic=48319.msg1465797#msg1465797 date=1326810706]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=48319.msg1#msg1 date=1326810057]
[quote author=Modo link=topic=48319.msg1465787#msg1465787 date=1326809845]
[quote author=Richey link=topic=48319.msg1#msg1 date=1326809001]
If we are talking about the inherited squad then of course Cisse should not be considered a Benitez signing. He was here when Benitez arrived. No argument there.

What it is worth bearing in mind though is the fact that Benitez took over a squad that was already in the Champions League. Dalglish has not. Although many of those names are enough to make us wince a bit now (and with that in mind, you forgot Traore - I know its always a a temptation to do so, so I do understand) there was a lot of quality too.
[/quote]
Being in the CL shouldnt be used as an excuse against Benitez. I'd go so far as to say that Benitez had it tougher because of the CL.
[/quote]

Didn't we cover this earlier?

I am not attacking him because he was in the CL, not at all. The point is that the squad he took over had already qualified for the CL, so it can't have been that bad.
[/quote]oh OK. Fair point. That squad also had Owen tbf.
[/quote]

That Squad also played the most depressing anti football I have ever had the misfortune to watch a Liverpool team play, we got the CL place on the last game of the season and finished on a massive 60 points, it was fucking CRINGEWORTHY and I actually stopped watching us about 3/4's of the way through the season because it was so bad.

It was like Roy HodgePodge's season, only I'd say a bit fucking worse

 

[peterhague]

The fact ged's squad qualified is fucking irrelevant when assessing its quality IF you've already listed the players and conceded they were, on the whole, not up to it!!

As Asbo says, we got 4th that year practically by default.

Richey's argument is the debating equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming blue murder.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=peterhague link=topic=48319.msg1465803#msg1465803 date=1326811766]
The fact ged's squad qualified is fucking irrelevant when assessing its quality IF you've already listed the players and conceded they were, on the whole, not up to it!!

As Asbo says, we got 4th that year practically by default.

Richey's argument is the debating equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming blue murder.
[/quote]

I admitted that the squad as a whole was not good enough, but then the squad that Kenny took over was also not good enough.

With all due respect you seem to be the one who is taking the approach you outline towards debating this particular topic. Benitez did some extremely good things in his time as manager, but made some mistakes too, particularly in his first season.

All I am saying is that Kenny should be given the time to improve matters the same as Benitez was.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Asbo link=topic=48319.msg1465791#msg1465791 date=1326810366]
Everyone is forgetting the horrific injuries we had in Rafa's first year, we didn't have a set back four for almost the entire season and even our number 1 goalkeeper only came in about 10th place in that seasons apperances, even Gerrad and Hamman both misses about 20 games each just in the Prem that season too, it was a fucking horrible horrible season injury wise, and yet we got to 2 Cup Finals and won Big Ears, fucking remarkable doesn't come into it!
[/quote]

Carra was ever present in the league, Riise missed one game, Hyypia missed 6 (when he mostly wasn't injured, he was dropped in favour of Pellegrino) and Finnan missed 5 (when Josemi was favoured)

The point about the keeper doesn't stack up either, since the reason Dudek didn't play more is because Kirkland was played ahead of him. Dudek was on the bench.

Hamann and Gerrard both missed 8 league games that season

Yes we did have injuries, but we have had them this year too. How long were we without Gerrard for? Lucas is out long term. Suarez, although not injured, is also unavailable

 

[Rosco]

All that stuff (and net spend) are only arguments open to you when you're apologising for Rafa Richey.

You should know that by now.

 

[Richey]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48319.msg1465808#msg1465808 date=1326812591]
All that stuff (and net spend) are only arguments open to you when you're apologising for Rafa Richey.

You should know that by now.
[/quote]

Thing is though that I'm not even slagging the fella off! Some people hear the name Benitez and assume that he needs defending.

All I was saying was that he wasn't amazing from word go, which is true. By this stage we even had pretty much the same number of points as we do now

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=48319.msg1465806#msg1465806 date=1326812065]
[quote author=peterhague link=topic=48319.msg1465803#msg1465803 date=1326811766]
The fact ged's squad qualified is fucking irrelevant when assessing its quality IF you've already listed the players and conceded they were, on the whole, not up to it!!

As Asbo says, we got 4th that year practically by default.

Richey's argument is the debating equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming blue murder.
[/quote]

I admitted that the squad as a whole was not good enough, but then the squad that Kenny took over was also not good enough.

With all due respect you seem to be the one who is taking the approach you outline towards debating this particular topic. Benitez did some extremely good things in his time as manager, but made some mistakes too, particularly in his first season.

All I am saying is that Kenny should be given the time to improve matters the same as Benitez was.
[/quote]

yeh, and i wouldn't disagree. i think he should get time too, and i've frequently questioned whether he really deserves as much blame as he's getting for some of the signings, ESPECIALLY Carroll, who we signed when Kenny wasn't even a permanent employee!

but what i'm saying is that it isn't really sound to defend this season's performance with reference to Rafa's first season. it just isn't.

Kenny's got a better squad, had more money to spend, had 6 months longer in the job, AND had none of the acclimitisation problems of language and footballing culture it's only right to recognise that Rafa had to contend with. seems a fair enough argument to me.

 

[peterhague]

[quote author=Richey link=topic=48319.msg1465810#msg1465810 date=1326813156]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=48319.msg1465808#msg1465808 date=1326812591]
All that stuff (and net spend) are only arguments open to you when you're apologising for Rafa Richey.

You should know that by now.
[/quote]

Thing is though that I'm not even slagging the fella off! Some people hear the name Benitez and assume that he needs defending.

All I was saying was that he wasn't amazing from word go, which is true. By this stage we even had pretty much the same number of points as we do now
[/quote]

i wish you'd stop resorting to this. it's unfair and beneath you. i could just as easily say that some people (mainly you and mark, btw) see Rafa's name and feel the need to attack him!

why can't we just say we disagree and recognise we like debating it?!