At what age can we determine if a player is good enough?

[Modo]

19, 20, 21?

I had an interesting discussion with a fellow football fanatic regarding youth/reserve players and when they're ready to challenge for a spot in top level football.

At Liverpool we've got, by the looks of it, a promising set of of youth/reserve players.
Some are captaining different youth national teams and some are already training with the first team.
There's been a lot of hype about them during the last couple of years and I wonder if or when they'll make it?

At what age can we definitely say "that lad is good enough"?

Some might say, "it depends"?
On what?

Could it be that there's too much competition or maybe the competition is hard because there's world class players in the team?

Maybe it's luck? Gerrard managed to break through when Redknapp was injured. Would it have happened if he wasn't?
Of course, because he clearly was good enough.

The same could be said about any of the home grown players who've made it for us, well except Carra (joking).

I argue that the coming of age for a footballer is 19. If you're not being included in the first team squad at that age you're clearly not good enough.

Of course, there's always exceptions, goalkeepers for instance, but at top level I think it's quite rare. Just have a look at our senior players.

Reina - When we played Barcelona in Uefa cup, he was only 19. (I think)
Johnson - Was playing for West Ham in the premier league at 18.
Agger - At 19 he was playing regularly for Brondby, one of the biggest teams in Danish League football
Carra - First full season at 19.
Enrique - At 19 he broke through, via a loan spell at primera division side Celta Vigo.
Lucas - Player of the year in the brazilian league at 19.

Downing - 18/19
Kuyt -18/19

I can go on and on.

Anyway, this is my little attempt to start a serious thread.

 

[Dylan]

Re: At what age can you determine if a player is good enough?

Well I'm 39 now and i manage ok.

 

[Fabio]

Re: At what age can you determine if a player is good enough?

And in my opinion modo, a good thread

I'm not sure. Obviously the top tier tend to be earmarked from a young age (ronaldo, Owen, maldini ) and impress when given the chance

It's too hard to judge until they get a chance consistently at the top level to decide whether they can hack it


So to answer your question

*shrugs*

 

[Sunny]

Re: At what age can you determine if a player is good enough?

I don't think there is any fixed rule of thumb as regards age. Good enough, old enough but should always have a watchful eye on the right physical development. Always find it fascinating that Ian Wright never signed pro terms until he was 22

 

[Modo]

Re: At what age can you determine if a player is good enough?

In another thread someone mentioned that Coady was destined to become a good player.
He's currently 18 and will turn 19 in February.

He's not even close to being called up to the first team. Begs to question if ita game over for him? Or will he be around until he's 23 like Spearing (who still hasn't convinced me that he's good enough)?

 

[iseered]

Re: At what age can you determine if a player is good enough?

Drogba played in Ligue 2 at 22.

 

[peterhague]

Re: At what age can you determine if a player is good enough?

In 90%+ of cases I think you can tell by 20/21 if a player will be premier league standard. 18 or 19 is defo too early to make any judgement IMO.

 

[Jack D Rips]

Different for every player. Sorry Fabio ( usually agree with you) and Modo, but shite thread.

 

[FoxForceFive]

Of course it's different for every player.

Ian Wright &, more recently, Charlie Adam prove Premiership quality can be proven later in life than most people would like to think.

Id argue there's a difference too, between the quality we want & other clubs in the league want, a fair few of our 'failures' have gone on to have a good career in this league without being outstanding. That's the problem our youth setup has, they don't just have to find premiership quality, they have to find the tips echelon of that quality.

I find it differs by position too, for example a CB usually needs to be older than a winger simply as maturity & match experience counts for a lot more in that position & they're more vulnerable. Keepers also seem to be blooded later than other positions, again as bad decisions caused by immaturity are more costly.

 

[keniget]

It's not a "shite thread" and I think saying that "it's different for every player" is somewhat simplifying matters.

I would imagine that clubs invest a not insignificant amount of money in trying to determine on a broader level measures to help them determine whether a player is good enough and age will surely factor into that.

There are very few examples I can think of where a player has come out of nowhere a la Drogba and really impress at the top level. The late developers - such as Charlie Adam, if we're using him as an example - were generally earmarked as talents early on and for one reason or another didn't quite live up to expecations. Adam was out on loan, in an out of the side dependant on the manager and he had to move in order to try and progress. Some fulfil their early promise, most don't.

So for me there probably is a deadline that is applicable in most cases and it tends to be between the ages of 18-21, but the more interesting question is nature vs nurture.

Some players are just always going to make it regardless of where they end up - they're just that good. Sturridge was always the jewel of City's academy and although you did wonder whether he'd lose his way after he left them, I don't think he was ever going to have to work his way back up the league to the Premiership. He was just too good.

Pedro (at Barcelona) is a very interesting example who had a bumpier ride to the top. He was on his way out of Barcelona (the reserve side, not the first team squad) until Guardiola convinced all that he needed to stick around. Look at him now. If he hadn't have been picked out of the crowd by Guardiola and nurtured in such a way, would he be where he is now? I very much doubt it.

And so I wonder whether players we've had in the past - talented players such as Le Tallec, Pongolle and even to a lesser extent Hammill, who spent those oh so key years in and out of the team / club - could've done a little bit more with the talent they had.

 

[Ryan]

Age has little to do with it. It's a mixture of experience, playing regular football, injuries, players you're playing with, etc etc.

Some mature quicker than others, but for the most part a players ability doesn't change markedly whether they're 18 or 28, it's a combination of the things I mentioned above that dictate when a player is 'good enough'.

Scott Parker is a decent example. Playing his best football of his career right now.

 

[mark1975]

I think in general it's down to progress, you can see the promise in most players, in some it's astoundingly obvious (Owen for example), in others the raw ability is there but until they're given a run it's difficult to assess one way or another and by a run, I mean the ability to grasp what small opportunities are thrown their way, that's the difference alot of the time, though obviously like with anything there will be exceptions to the rule, where players don't figure for whatever reason (tactical or a managers own blind spots) and then go on to make it elsewhere.

 

[Whitey85]

Physical/mental development is massive from 16-20 years. Alot of clubs are now using the reserve setup to field very young sides but there are still thousands of YT's being let go at 18 when they may be late developers. If the reserve league involved more playing time then a few more lads might be kept on and given a chance to continue to develop further. Birth bias is a massive problem in youth football too which doesn't help matters.

 

[keniget]

[quote author=Whitey85 link=topic=47354.msg1419790#msg1419790 date=1320054900]If the reserve league involved more playing time then a few more lads might be kept on and given a chance to continue to develop further.
[/quote]

I agree. The reserve league is a joke.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=47354.msg1419785#msg1419785 date=1320054220]

And so I wonder whether players we've had in the past - talented players such as Le Tallec, Pongolle and even to a lesser extent Hammill, who spent those oh so key years in and out of the team / club - could've done a little bit more with the talent they had.
[/quote]

I think there's also a case to be made that we, as a club, could have done better with the talent some players had too.

 

[keniget]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47354.msg1419797#msg1419797 date=1320055428]
[quote author=keniget link=topic=47354.msg1419785#msg1419785 date=1320054220]

And so I wonder whether players we've had in the past - talented players such as Le Tallec, Pongolle and even to a lesser extent Hammill, who spent those oh so key years in and out of the team / club - could've done a little bit more with the talent they had.
[/quote]

I think there's also a case to be made that we, as a club, could have done better with the talent some players had too.
[/quote]

That's what I was getting at.

You only have to look at players like Wilson and Shelvey now and wonder the same thing.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=47354.msg1419796#msg1419796 date=1320055385]
[quote author=Whitey85 link=topic=47354.msg1419790#msg1419790 date=1320054900]If the reserve league involved more playing time then a few more lads might be kept on and given a chance to continue to develop further.
[/quote]

I agree. The reserve league is a joke.
[/quote]

Do you think? I've thought for a while it's been massively improved by having a target age of 16-18, surely that's better than when we had a reserve team full of ageing International rejects.

 

[keniget]

Well, I don't follow it as keenly as I used to a couple years ago, but unless things have changed radically since then they don't play enough games and at times there can be periods of a couple months between games. It's crazy.

The club will arrange friendlies, play in tournaments like the Liverpool Senior Cup, but they need a proper competitive season.

Perhaps this European thing will help matters, but that's only applicable to a few select clubs anyways.

 

[mark1975]

I think the amount of games they play is a massive issue, so fair point, the league itself needs a shake up, I just think out approach to the system is alot better these days.

 

[Modo]

Fact is the vast majority of our senior players played top level football at 18/19, hence my conclusion that you should be good enough at 19.

 

[Woland]

Lucas is 24 so I hope it's around 27.

 

[Richey]

It varies massively. A lot of it is down to ability and confidence but its also down to opportunities.

I believe that a lot of players who excel at youth and reserve level have the potential to become professionals at a decent level but the opportunities don't always come up or aren't always taken.

 

[Ossi]

[quote author=Modo link=topic=47354.msg1419823#msg1419823 date=1320058111]
Fact is the vast majority of our senior players played top level football at 18/19, hence my conclusion that you should be good enough at 19.
[/quote]

If that is true we can all forget our hopes about Lucas. 😉