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British & Irish Lions

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[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=27836.msg724748#msg724748 date=1226786538]
Just a little more of what's left of my hair, boyo. ;D

A combination of things led to that result. One - Deans has somehow managed to turn the Australians, with comfortably the sh!ttest front row in top-class international rugby, into halfway decent scrummagers. Two - either our lot were actually sent out with instructions to throw caution to the winds OR I wouldn't have wanted to be in their shoes when they got back in the dressing-room to face Johnno.

Earlier in the day I'd had the dubious "pleasure" of listening to Campese spouting his usual BS in an "interview" on TalkSport by Andy Townsend and Porky Parry (neither of whom knows squat about rugby, even if Parry is of Welsh origin). How I'd have loved shoving his snide little remarks back down his slimy throat. Ah well, there's always the memory of how he must have felt in 2003 to keep me warm.
[/quote]

It looked like the same old problem for England mate, loads of possession but no cutting edge.

The Aussies seemed to be trying anything they could to disrupt the scums in the 1st half, and then in the 2nd half they actually had the nerve to hold there own :).

MJ has a hard job on his hands.
 
Another South African referee meant another Australian mockery of the scrummage laws, like in 2003 when Watson did his damnedest to rob us of the World Cup on the back of the Aussies collapsing the scrum every f'ckin time, but there's no getting away from the fact that they fought us to a standstill in there and should never, ever have been allowed to do that.

For the future, though, I'm not sure I agree Johnno has as much of a task as all that.  There are a lot of young players coming through and we always knew there was a learning process ahead.  It reminds me of the time before the 2007 World Cup, when a load of you Celts were on here giving it large about how England would get taken to the cleaners.  Keep wishing. ;)
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=27836.msg723504#msg723504 date=1226697319]
You Taffs are gonna eat your words. We'll marmalise the Australians in the front row, so they're going to get bugger all platform for their backs.
[/quote]

I watched and I watched and I watched, but the only marmalising in the front row was done by the Aussies. Nice to see Sheridan getting pinged for his illegal scrummaging - hopefully means that referees are finally cottoning on to him. He went off with 10 mins to go, was it an injury or just injured pride knowing that the only side he used to be able to beat in the scrummage now have the ability to drive him off the ball.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=27836.msg725172#msg725172 date=1226835310]
Another South African referee meant another Australian mockery of the scrummage laws, like in 2003 when Watson did his damnedest to rob us of the World Cup on the back of the Aussies collapsing the scrum every f'ckin time, but there's no getting away from the fact that they fought us to a standstill in there and should never, ever have been allowed to do that.

For the future, though, I'm not sure I agree Johnno has as much of a task as all that. There are a lot of young players coming through and we always knew there was a learning process ahead. It reminds me of the time before the 2007 World Cup, when a load of you Celts were on here giving it large about how England would get taken to the cleaners. Keep wishing. ;)
[/quote]


Was that a record defeat at twickers JJ?
 
Don't know, don't care. :p

I'm still optimistic for the future in terms of the talent we have, but Johnno's going to have to change one or two things, starting with the captaincy where I never thought he'd gone for the right man. Borthwick has a very good rugby brain, but he doesn't convince me as a leader and I don't think he's one of the two best locks we've got either (I'd put Grewcock and Shaw in against the Blacks). You'd think Johnno would know his second rows but for my money this is one big decision he's flunked. I'd also have Lewsey - who should never have been dropped - back in at fullback (probably also as skipper) and put Armitage on the left wing for Monye, who IMO is short of international class. Stevens should be a fixture in the front row, with Hartley alongside him at hooker, while Rees and Haskell should get a run on the flanks.
 
Ireland, despite beating the Argies, weren't up to much at the weekend.

We're lacking ideas going forward at the moment. O'Driscoll at 13 is becoming an issue, as is our forwards who seem to think they can take on international defences by taking on flat passes while they stand still.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=27836.msg732516#msg732516 date=1227521445]
Don't know, don't care. :p

I'm still optimistic for the future in terms of the talent we have, but Johnno's going to have to change one or two things, starting with the captaincy where I never thought he'd gone for the right man. Borthwick has a very good rugby brain, but he doesn't convince me as a leader and I don't think he's one of the two best locks we've got either (I'd put Grewcock and Shaw in against the Blacks). You'd think Johnno would know his second rows but for my money this is one big decision he's flunked. I'd also have Lewsey - who should never have been dropped - back in at fullback (probably also as skipper) and put Armitage on the left wing for Monye, who IMO is short of international class. Stevens should be a fixture in the front row, with Hartley alongside him at hooker, while Rees and Haskell should get a run on the flanks.
[/quote]

I don't see the point in bringing back 3 thirty plus year olds into the team personally mate. I'd just accept that you're going to struggle for a while but hopefully give enough experience to the youngsters with talent in the mean time.

England will always have a very decent pack and the next generation are allready there in the likes of:

Croft, Crane, Hartley and Rees.

I'd just try and focus on getting some sort of pattern to the backs play over this coming 6 nations. Too many times England will say that they are going to play a new band of rugby and then after 1 or 2 poor performances you just return to your old ways.

It looks like its going to be 3 wins out of 4 for Wales against England in the 6 nations.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=27836.msg732546#msg732546 date=1227525055]
Ireland, despite beating the Argies, weren't up to much at the weekend.

We're lacking ideas going forward at the moment. O'Driscoll at 13 is becoming an issue, as is our forwards who seem to think they can take on international defences by taking on flat passes while they stand still.
[/quote]

That was a much needed win for your boys Rosco wasn't it? You could have ended up with another group of death in the WC if you'd lost that game.

Do you have many players coming through?

Warming to Bowe a little?
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=27836.msg732546#msg732546 date=1227525055]
Ireland, despite beating the Argies, weren't up to much at the weekend.

We're lacking ideas going forward at the moment. O'Driscoll at 13 is becoming an issue, as is our forwards who seem to think they can take on international defences by taking on flat passes while they stand still.
[/quote]

Completely agree Rosco. At times it looked like Rugby League at its worst out there. Flat pass into tackle, ruck. (Repeat again and again). We didn't generate any pace in the attacks other than a few breaks by Bowe. We had a gameplan, but it just happened to be the kind of gameplan that gives the Argies the sort of game they like. One bonus was that we protected ball really well at the breakdown, and Murphy was brilliant at snaffling every Garryowen that went up. But creatively, we were generally dire.
 
Rafa4,

Yes and sorry, but TBH I wasn't convinced by it.  It's one thing to show you're not intimidated (something Ireland did well a good few years ago, when they lined up facing the haka and gave the Blacks a mouthful of their own) but turning your backs could be taken as downright disrespectful and I'd have thought it risked firing the other lot up worse than ever.

On England, I accept that putting older guys in would be a short-term expedient just now, but I'd sooner see that than have us hammered to buggery, which at the moment looks well on the cards.  "Older" is relative anyway and I certainly think Lewsey for one has a lot of top-level rugby in him yet (you'll no doubt tell me it's because of his Welsh blood).  As for the eventual England-v-Wales result, he who laughs last, and all that....
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=27836.msg732657#msg732657 date=1227530450]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=27836.msg732546#msg732546 date=1227525055]
Ireland, despite beating the Argies, weren't up to much at the weekend.

We're lacking ideas going forward at the moment. O'Driscoll at 13 is becoming an issue, as is our forwards who seem to think they can take on international defences by taking on flat passes while they stand still.
[/quote]

Completely agree Rosco. At times it looked like Rugby League at its worst out there. Flat pass into tackle, ruck. (Repeat again and again). We didn't generate any pace in the attacks other than a few breaks by Bowe. We had a gameplan, but it just happened to be the kind of gameplan that gives the Argies the sort of game they like. One bonus was that we protected ball really well at the breakdown, and Murphy was brilliant at snaffling every Garryowen that went up. But creatively, we were generally dire.



[/quote]

Dricco not a candidate for the Lions this time around then?
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=27836.msg732623#msg732623 date=1227528937]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=27836.msg732546#msg732546 date=1227525055]
Ireland, despite beating the Argies, weren't up to much at the weekend.

We're lacking ideas going forward at the moment. O'Driscoll at 13 is becoming an issue, as is our forwards who seem to think they can take on international defences by taking on flat passes while they stand still.
[/quote]

That was a much needed win for your boys Rosco wasn't it? You could have ended up with another group of death in the WC if you'd lost that game.

Do you have many players coming through?

Warming to Bowe a little?
[/quote]

Yeah I'm happy we avoided the group of death, but I'm a little confused as to why they need to sort out seedings three years in advance. It makes no sense.

Bowe had a mixed game, he was one of our few players to break the line with ball in hand but he did look a bit iffy underneath kicks. That said everyone out there bar Murphy looked dodgy under the high ball so you'd have to wonder was the wind swirling about a bit. He does look like a much better player than the one that made his debut a few years ago
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=27836.msg732666#msg732666 date=1227531283]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=27836.msg732657#msg732657 date=1227530450]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=27836.msg732546#msg732546 date=1227525055]
Ireland, despite beating the Argies, weren't up to much at the weekend.

We're lacking ideas going forward at the moment. O'Driscoll at 13 is becoming an issue, as is our forwards who seem to think they can take on international defences by taking on flat passes while they stand still.
[/quote]

Completely agree Rosco. At times it looked like Rugby League at its worst out there. Flat pass into tackle, ruck. (Repeat again and again). We didn't generate any pace in the attacks other than a few breaks by Bowe. We had a gameplan, but it just happened to be the kind of gameplan that gives the Argies the sort of game they like. One bonus was that we protected ball really well at the breakdown, and Murphy was brilliant at snaffling every Garryowen that went up. But creatively, we were generally dire.



[/quote]

Dricco not a candidate for the Lions this time around then?
[/quote]

I'm sure he'll still be a candidate. In fact, I'm sure he'll go.
 
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=27836.msg732657#msg732657 date=1227530450]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=27836.msg732546#msg732546 date=1227525055]
Ireland, despite beating the Argies, weren't up to much at the weekend.

We're lacking ideas going forward at the moment. O'Driscoll at 13 is becoming an issue, as is our forwards who seem to think they can take on international defences by taking on flat passes while they stand still.
[/quote]

Completely agree Rosco. At times it looked like Rugby League at its worst out there. Flat pass into tackle, ruck. (Repeat again and again). We didn't generate any pace in the attacks other than a few breaks by Bowe. We had a gameplan, but it just happened to be the kind of gameplan that gives the Argies the sort of game they like. One bonus was that we protected ball really well at the breakdown, and Murphy was brilliant at snaffling every Garryowen that went up. But creatively, we were generally dire.
[/quote]

Well the other option was to run at all costs, which is what France did in the World Cup and they paid the price. Argentina are pretty tough defensively and part of the reason we struggled to run the ball at all was because they were up so quickly in the centre , in that type of situation the kicking game is understandable. This game was all about the result, so I'm not going to get too worried about the tactics.

The major concern is how little we have worried the defences of Argentina and New Zealand, but I think by the time the 6 nations rolls around we'll have that sorted. It's still pretty early in the season.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=27836.msg732659#msg732659 date=1227530594]
Rafa4,

Yes and sorry, but TBH I wasn't convinced by it. it's one thing to show you're not intimidated (something Ireland did well a good few years ago, when they lined up facing the haka and gave the Blacks a mouthful of their own) but turning your backs could be taken as downright disrespectful and I'd have thought it risked firing the other lot up worse than ever.

On England, I accept that putting older guys in would be a short-term expedient just now, but I'd sooner see that than have us hammered to buggery, which at the moment looks well on the cards. "Older" is relative anyway and I certainly think Lewsey for one has a lot of top-level rugby in him yet (you'll no doubt tell me it's because of his Welsh blood). As for the eventual England-v-Wales result, he who laughs last, and all that....
[/quote]

We didn't turn our backs mate? We stood there after they had finished and waited for them to walk away which they refused to do. The ref had to go to both sides on numerous occasions to get one of the teams to back off, it was excellent to watch.

Yeah you're right about Lewsey, it is because of his welsh blood.

I don't think i've looked forward to a Wales v England more in my life :)
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=27836.msg732667#msg732667 date=1227531327]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=27836.msg732623#msg732623 date=1227528937]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=27836.msg732546#msg732546 date=1227525055]
Ireland, despite beating the Argies, weren't up to much at the weekend.

We're lacking ideas going forward at the moment. O'Driscoll at 13 is becoming an issue, as is our forwards who seem to think they can take on international defences by taking on flat passes while they stand still.
[/quote]

That was a much needed win for your boys Rosco wasn't it? You could have ended up with another group of death in the WC if you'd lost that game.

Do you have many players coming through?

Warming to Bowe a little?
[/quote]

Yeah I'm happy we avoided the group of death, but I'm a little confused as to why they need to sort out seedings three years in advance. It makes no sense.

Bowe had a mixed game, he was one of our few players to break the line with ball in hand but he did look a bit iffy underneath kicks. That said everyone out there bar Murphy looked dodgy under the high ball so you'd have to wonder was the wind swirling about a bit. He does look like a much better player than the one that made his debut a few years ago
[/quote]

It does seem odd that they sort it out so long before the WC actually takes place doesn't it?
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=27836.msg732672#msg732672 date=1227531547]
[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=27836.msg732657#msg732657 date=1227530450]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=27836.msg732546#msg732546 date=1227525055]
Ireland, despite beating the Argies, weren't up to much at the weekend.

We're lacking ideas going forward at the moment. O'Driscoll at 13 is becoming an issue, as is our forwards who seem to think they can take on international defences by taking on flat passes while they stand still.
[/quote]

Completely agree Rosco. At times it looked like Rugby League at its worst out there. Flat pass into tackle, ruck. (Repeat again and again). We didn't generate any pace in the attacks other than a few breaks by Bowe. We had a gameplan, but it just happened to be the kind of gameplan that gives the Argies the sort of game they like. One bonus was that we protected ball really well at the breakdown, and Murphy was brilliant at snaffling every Garryowen that went up. But creatively, we were generally dire.
[/quote]

Well the other option was to run at all costs, which is what France did in the World Cup and they paid the price. Argentina are pretty tough defensively and part of the reason we struggled to run the ball at all was because they were up so quickly in the centre , in that type of situation the kicking game is understandable. This game was all about the result, so I'm not going to get too worried about the tactics.

The major concern is how little we have worried the defences of Argentina and New Zealand, but I think by the time the 6 nations rolls around we'll have that sorted. It's still pretty early in the season.
[/quote]

There *is* an in-between though Ross. I'm not talking gung-ho stuff, but setting up predictable attacks through the centre was plodding stuff. More intelligent kicking would help though. ROG has been pretty dreadful for a while, and I really want Paddy Wallace to get a run out.
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=27836.msg732680#msg732680 date=1227531926]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=27836.msg732659#msg732659 date=1227530594]
Rafa4,

Yes and sorry, but TBH I wasn't convinced by it. it's one thing to show you're not intimidated (something Ireland did well a good few years ago, when they lined up facing the haka and gave the Blacks a mouthful of their own) but turning your backs could be taken as downright disrespectful and I'd have thought it risked firing the other lot up worse than ever.

On England, I accept that putting older guys in would be a short-term expedient just now, but I'd sooner see that than have us hammered to buggery, which at the moment looks well on the cards. "Older" is relative anyway and I certainly think Lewsey for one has a lot of top-level rugby in him yet (you'll no doubt tell me it's because of his Welsh blood). As for the eventual England-v-Wales result, he who laughs last, and all that....
[/quote]

We didn't turn our backs mate? We stood there after they had finished and waited for them to walk away which they refused to do. The ref had to go to both sides on numerous occasions to get one of the teams to back off, it was excellent to watch.

Yeah you're right about Lewsey, it is because of his welsh blood.

I don't think i've looked forward to a Wales v England more in my life :)
[/quote]

Must have got the games mixed up - sorry about that. Blame the Friday night bottle of Australian Cabernet-Merlot.

As for the Six Nations game - bring it on, boyo, bring it on. 8)
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=27836.msg732703#msg732703 date=1227534430]
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=27836.msg732680#msg732680 date=1227531926]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=27836.msg732659#msg732659 date=1227530594]
Rafa4,

Yes and sorry, but TBH I wasn't convinced by it. it's one thing to show you're not intimidated (something Ireland did well a good few years ago, when they lined up facing the haka and gave the Blacks a mouthful of their own) but turning your backs could be taken as downright disrespectful and I'd have thought it risked firing the other lot up worse than ever.

On England, I accept that putting older guys in would be a short-term expedient just now, but I'd sooner see that than have us hammered to buggery, which at the moment looks well on the cards. "Older" is relative anyway and I certainly think Lewsey for one has a lot of top-level rugby in him yet (you'll no doubt tell me it's because of his Welsh blood). As for the eventual England-v-Wales result, he who laughs last, and all that....
[/quote]

We didn't turn our backs mate? We stood there after they had finished and waited for them to walk away which they refused to do. The ref had to go to both sides on numerous occasions to get one of the teams to back off, it was excellent to watch.

Yeah you're right about Lewsey, it is because of his welsh blood.

I don't think i've looked forward to a Wales v England more in my life :)
[/quote]

Must have got the games mixed up - sorry about that. Blame the Friday night bottle of Australian Cabernet-Merlot.

As for the Six Nations game - bring it on, boyo, bring it on. 8)
[/quote]

I'll be going to the game in anticipation of a record win ;)
 
Lets play a little game. lets see who can guess the right amount of tries that the All Blacks will score against England.

I'll go for 8.
 
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=27836.msg736103#msg736103 date=1227885726]
Fuck off. ;D
[/quote]

Come on mate join in the game, how many you going for?
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=27836.msg736132#msg736132 date=1227888475]
haha ....

I've a feeling England won't be beaten by as much as last week.
[/quote]

Not having a guess Rosco?
 
[quote author=Rafa4PM link=topic=27836.msg736136#msg736136 date=1227888788]
[quote author=Judge Jules link=topic=27836.msg736103#msg736103 date=1227885726]
Fuck off. ;D
[/quote]

Come on mate join in the game, how many you going for?
[/quote]

Well, if you twist my arm, I'll say three.

We'll cross their line too.
 
I wasn't too far out with my prediction.

England held out well for the first 60, even having three men binned. There is only so long that you can hang in against the All Blacks though.
 
Paul O'Connell has simply just got to be named Lions skipper. Not only is he a fantastic player who should be one of the 1st names on the team sheet, but he is exactly the type of character that will be needed in SA.

Anyone see the Munster game? That Canadian thug clearly steps way over the line with at least 2-3 cheap shots promptly followed by O'Connell dumping him to the ground and getting in 2-3 smacks of his own.
 
Didn't see it, but that's exactly what a Lions skipper needs to be willing and able to do. Especially in South Africa.
 
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