Champions League Playoffs....

[hamstrung_pigeon]

Come on Besiktas!!!

Didn't realize they're managed by Slaven Bilic now. Arsenal's fixture list for August now looks like this:

Sat 16th Aug 17.30 - Crystal Palace H Barclays Premier League
Tue 19th Aug 19.45 - Besiktas A UEFA Champions League Qualifiers
Sat 23rd Aug 17.30 - Everton A Barclays Premier League
Wed 27th Aug 19.45 - Besiktas H UEFA Champions League Qualifiers

Not exactly a breeze, having to play Pulis' Palace team just before traveling to Besiktas, then going away to Everton after that. So glad we're not playing these playoff games this season. For what it's worth though, they also played a Turkish team at this stage last season (Fenerbahce) and qualified with a 5-0 aggregate. Looks like a soft matchup again this time. Hopefully, they'll feel the strain on their league games so early in the season.

 

[Frogfish]

Didn't you hear? Wage inflation through the roof at Hibernians!

They have a roof ?!

 

[Frogfish]

Didn't realize they're managed by Slaven Bilic now. Arsenal's fixture list for August now looks like this:

Sat 16th Aug 17.30 - Crystal Palace H Barclays Premier League
Tue 19th Aug 19.45 - Besiktas A UEFA Champions League Qualifiers
Sat 23rd Aug 17.30 - Everton A Barclays Premier League
Wed 27th Aug 19.45 - Besiktas H UEFA Champions League Qualifiers

Not exactly a breeze, having to play Pulis' Palace team just before traveling to Besiktas, then going away to Everton after that. So glad we're not playing these playoff games this season. For what it's worth though, they also played a Turkish team at this stage last season (Fenerbahce) and qualified with a 5-0 aggregate. Looks like a soft matchup again this time. Hopefully, they'll feel the strain on their league games so early in the season.

Ooh I like that ! Travel to Turkey then back to the UK for Everton away, all within 4 days. Wenger will be vocal no doubt.

 

[Hansern]

Didn't realize they're managed by Slaven Bilic now. Arsenal's fixture list for August now looks like this:

Sat 16th Aug 17.30 - Crystal Palace H Barclays Premier League
Tue 19th Aug 19.45 - Besiktas A UEFA Champions League Qualifiers
Sat 23rd Aug 17.30 - Everton A Barclays Premier League
Wed 27th Aug 19.45 - Besiktas H UEFA Champions League Qualifiers

Not exactly a breeze, having to play Pulis' Palace team just before traveling to Besiktas, then going away to Everton after that. So glad we're not playing these playoff games this season. For what it's worth though, they also played a Turkish team at this stage last season (Fenerbahce) and qualified with a 5-0 aggregate. Looks like a soft matchup again this time. Hopefully, they'll feel the strain on their league games so early in the season.

Demba Ba to knock them out then!

 

[Rafiagra]

I really really hope Besiktas knock them out after Sanchez chose them over us. Won't happen though and I reckon Arsenal will blow them away.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

I really really hope Besiktas knock them out after Sanchez chose them over us. Won't happen though and I reckon Arsenal will blow them away.

Besiktas' best chance comes from the possibility that Mertesacker likely won't play and Vermaelen's off, leaving Arsenal with Koscielny as the only senior CB. I think the Frenchman is really overrated - he's played better with Mertesacker beside him, but I just don't rate him as highly as others - probably that's swayed by his first couple of seasons in the league when he played as a full-back at times and was picking up silly cards.

I'm surprised they still haven't picked up a CB by now; maybe they think Chambers can play there. Supposedly he's played CB in the Southampton reserves and I read in Saintsweb that Wenger has been playing him there in pre-season. With Jenkinson off on loan and Vermaelen off to Barca, Arsenal is entering the last 3 weeks of the transfer window with 6 defenders - Debuchy, Gibbs, Mertesacker, Koscielny, Monreal, Chambers. We're entering the season with that number of CBs alone.

 

[Frogfish]

Pinched:
Oscar Pistorius should hire Celtic's lawyer....Lose two legs and still win

 

[StevieM]

Of course. But then, apart from the average man in the street, who does (pay as much as they should) ?

The point is/was that the SPL (led by Celtic) turfed Rangers out so that they could win more SPL titles and Scottish cups. It was incredibly short sighted and the Death Knell for the SPL.

@Frogfish

With all due respect, I don't think you have a really good grasp of what happened & the feelings that it arose.

The clubs voted to demote Rangers because the majority of their own season ticket holders vowed to walk away from the game if appropriate punishment was not handed out.

Rangers themselves had cause the dissution if at least one club (Airdrie) in the past over unpaid debt - so it was no surprise to see the attitude pushed back on Rangers.

Financial hard times in the short term will lead to a better long term solution whereby other teams won't over-stretch themselves to keep up with Rangers.

It's actually improved competition because other teams have more of a chance of getting in to Europe or winning a cup and I believe home attendances at other clubs are up.

 

[Frogfish]

@Frogfish

With all due respect, I don't think you have a really good grasp of what happened & the feelings that it arose.

The clubs voted to demote Rangers because the majority of their own season ticket holders vowed to walk away from the game if appropriate punishment was not handed out.

Rangers themselves had cause the dissution if at least one club (Airdrie) in the past over unpaid debt - so it was no surprise to see the attitude pushed back on Rangers.

Financial hard times in the short term will lead to a better long term solution whereby other teams won't over-stretch themselves to keep up with Rangers.

It's actually improved competition because other teams have more of a chance of getting in to Europe or winning a cup and I believe home attendances at other clubs are up.

Interesting Steve.

Appropriate punishment is a disputable subject though, and having had a suitable points deduction instead (say on a decreasing scale for 10 years) would have given a dual benefit to the other SPL clubs (of course there would have been one less place in the SPL but still ...) of both the not insubstantial income from 3-4 games with Rangers each season in addition to increasing the chances of other SPL clubs qualifying for European competition.
Compensation to other clubs could have been forced too (not that that would have been of any benefit to Airdrie though I doubt, without knowing absolutely anything about Airdrie and therefore having absolutely no basis for my doubt, that any debt owed by Rangers was not the sole reason for their demise).

The greatest impact on SPL was the pull-out of TV companies wanting to screen their games, akin to the benefit Liverpool & United and the other Top 5/6 clubs, in particular, bring to the EPL, where all clubs benefit from greater viewing figures. Without the attraction of Rangers (vs Celtic and the other top Scottish teams) and the now virtual total lack of any competitiveness (with regards to the eventual champions) neither Sky nor ESPN show any Scottish matches, BT Sport being their sole non-Scottish outlet. Sponsorship too has diminished.

The quality of Scottish football has also gone into serious decline. There is no doubt the overall standard has declined and this is mirrored in their UEFA rating, this clip also from Wiki and showing the decline mirrors Rangers ejection from the SPL :
In the seasons after the SPL's inception, Scotland's UEFA co-efficient improved significantly, having been ranked 26th in 1998–99,[20] they reached a high of 10th at the end of the 2007-08 season.[21] The SPL ranking declined after this, with the league falling back to 24th position at the end of 2012-13.

On the question of attendance this is an interesting snip from Wiki which basically cuts dead any increase in attendance question : All ten of the clubs that played in the 1998–99 Scottish Premier League also participated in the 2011–12 Scottish Premier League.[9] Nine of those ten clubs recorded lower average attendance.[9] Celtic had a 14% decline in attendance since a peak season of 2000–01, when the club won the domestic treble.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

From the Guardian report on this:

[article]It is the second time in four seasons Celtic have benefited from an ineligibility ruling. They were reinstated into the Europa League in 2011-12, despite a qualifying defeat by Sion, after the Swiss club were adjudged to have fielded five ineligible players.[/article]

Lucky bastards!

 

[doctor_mac]

There's a difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion.

Rangers have won their case against HMRC and subsequently defeated the HMRC's appeal against that decision. In other words the whole thing was pretty flimsy, and it should never have got to the stage it did, at least until the HMRC's case had run its course.

 

[StevieM]

@doctor_mac @Frogfish

Rangers didn't go into liquidation because of the tax bill they defeated. 2 key things here -

1. They went into administration because they couldn't pay bills, which included other clubs, Strathclyde Police (I think), suppliers and importantly the tax office - this money was for unpaid national insurance (I think).

2. Unlike any other club that's gone into administration they were unable to agree a deal to pay suppliers back a bit of the debt - basically the tax office policy was to refuse anything less than 100% - so therefore the where liquidated - ceased to exist. Someone bought whatever assets where left and then managed to "keep" the history.

Technically, as a new club they had to start at the bottom unless the SPL clubs voted to change their rules and admit the team to the league without having played a game.

It's all technicalities - but it isn't the sort if thing a fine would have just swept under the carpet.

In terms of the TV deal - something like 80% of the deal was funnelled to the Old Firm - so the other clubs saw little - the teams relied more on generating income through the turnstiles.

Stats - the ones I've looked at show pretty flat attendance figures for SPL sides over the last 5 years - so losing Rangers hasn't made much difference to other fans.

Celtic are probably the biggest losers.

In the end though, the demise if Scottish football has little to do with the demise of rangers and more to do with the hegemony operated by the old form over the game in Scotland which stifled other teams.

 

[Brizzle]

Besiktas' best chance comes from the possibility that Mertesacker likely won't play and Vermaelen's off, leaving Arsenal with Koscielny as the only senior CB. I think the Frenchman is really overrated - he's played better with Mertesacker beside him, but I just don't rate him as highly as others - probably that's swayed by his first couple of seasons in the league when he played as a full-back at times and was picking up silly cards.

I'm surprised they still haven't picked up a CB by now; maybe they think Chambers can play there. Supposedly he's played CB in the Southampton reserves and I read in Saintsweb that Wenger has been playing him there in pre-season. With Jenkinson off on loan and Vermaelen off to Barca, Arsenal is entering the last 3 weeks of the transfer window with 6 defenders - Debuchy, Gibbs, Mertesacker, Koscielny, Monreal, Chambers. We're entering the season with that number of CBs alone.

Didn't watch the Community Shield but apparently they played Monreal and Chambers at CB. Hope this bites them in the first couple of games. One injury to Per or Kos and they are toast as it stands.

 

[Wizardry]

@doctor_mac @Frogfish

Rangers didn't go into liquidation because of the tax bill they defeated. 2 key things here -

1. They went into administration because they couldn't pay bills, which included other clubs, Strathclyde Police (I think), suppliers and importantly the tax office - this money was for unpaid national insurance (I think).

2. Unlike any other club that's gone into administration they were unable to agree a deal to pay suppliers back a bit of the debt - basically the tax office policy was to refuse anything less than 100% - so therefore the where liquidated - ceased to exist. Someone bought whatever assets where left and then managed to "keep" the history.

I haven't kept up with it in detail over the last few months but, for what it's worth, I understood the reasons for Rangers being unable to pay their debts and being placed into liquidation is because the tax bill was unexpected and therefore not part of their cash flow. As such they were unable to meet this bill when it fell due and, as no payment terms were permitted, they had to apply for administration and subsequent liquidation.

The fact the applied tax bill was subsequently defeated in court means that all of this could easily have been avoided if no penalties were applied until the court process had been satisfied.

 

[StevieM]

I haven't kept up with it in detail over the last few months but, for what it's worth, I understood the reasons for Rangers being unable to pay their debts and being placed into liquidation is because the tax bill was unexpected and therefore not part of their cash flow. As such they were unable to meet this bill when it fell due and, as no payment terms were permitted, they had to apply for administration and subsequent liquidation.

The fact the applied tax bill was subsequently defeated in court means that all of this could easily have been avoided if no penalties were applied until the court process had been satisfied.

Different tax bill mate.

There where 2 tax bills. The small tax bill was what put Rangers in administration - it was never paid, so rangers got liquidated.

Part of their problem was they where deemed toxic because of the likely outcome of the big tax case - so no one would invest.

 

[Wizardry]

Fair enough.

 

[Dreambeliever]

so in short they f*cked up and got spanked for it.

Next.