Poll Is our first choice team as good as/better than City & Chelsea

[Dreambeliever]

One of the lines that has been banded about since our run to the CL final in 2018 is that our first 11 is better than any other team in the league (and world for that matter).
The year we won the league with no major injuries solidified that mindset amongst our fan base.

Is it still the case now?

We failed to beat a 10 man Chelsea at home and where they looked the better side until the sending off.
Granted we had players out so the original statement could still be argued.
We’ve just failed to beat City at home where in seasons past we’ve blown them away at home. We could easily have been 3-0 to them at HT as they gave us a footballing lesson but we responded very well in the second half.
In terms of our best 11 we have Trent and Thiago and arguably Firmino to come in but is that enough? With those two would be beat City and Chelsea?

Fabhino certainly looked super exposed in the middle, Henderson was awful and we all can see the problem emerging at RB defensively.
Mane isn’t at the top of his game and Firmino hasn’t been for years. Only Salah is arguably a better player than two years ago. Even VVD isn’t at his normal amazing best yet but will hopefully get there.

So do we have the greatest team (if not squad) in the league?

 

[MomoWASright]

We do. That was the best city side they could put out and needed us to play a geriatric right back and needed a deflection to get anything.

 

[Frogfish]

We do. That was the best city side they could put out and needed us to play a geriatric right back and needed a deflection to get anything.

Haha well a like anyway but that wasn't totally the reality 😉

 

[rurikbird]

The one worry for me is that we're starting to see the limits of Hendo's stamina and ability to cover a huge amount of ground – in the previous years, it's simply inconceivable that Trent or Milner at RB would have been left as exposed as they have been in some games this season when Hendo is at RCM. Yes, he's playing higher up the pitch by design and that's the kind of tactical change that is responsible for our midfield contributing more to the attack than at any point in recent memory, but that doesn't fully explain what we see. Hendo is unquestionably in our first 11 and that's why it's a bit of a concern because it also exacerbates some shortcomings of Fabinho and Thiago, namely the lack of lateral mobility, and of Trent as a defender. Maybe that's why Klopp was so keep on developing Elliott early in the season and perhaps we will see a lot more of him when he is back.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

The one worry for me is that we're starting to see the limits of Hendo's stamina and ability to cover a huge amount of ground – in the previous years, it's simply inconceivable that Trent or Milner at RB would have been left as exposed as they have been in some games this season when Hendo is at RCM. Yes, he's playing higher up the pitch by design and that's the kind of tactical change that is responsible for our midfield contributing more to the attack than at any point in recent memory, but that doesn't fully explain what we see. Hendo is unquestionably in our first 11 and that's why it's a bit of a concern because it also exacerbates some shortcomings of Fabinho and Thiago, namely the lack of lateral mobility, and of Trent as a defender. Maybe that's why Klopp was so keep on developing Elliott early in the season and perhaps we will see a lot more of him when he is back.

Yup, this is going through my head a lot ... and if he loses that stamina, a midfield of him, Fabinho and whoever become problematic against top teams ...

 

[Frogfish]

It's not that easy because of course formation affects personnel as do opinions and in some cases whether on the offensive or defending. Of course it's a team/squad game so even having the best in any position doesn't mean team superiority and just being the best doesn't say how far ahead of the competition you are so ... on any given day etc., some of these are very very close.

Red - best. Blue - runner up. Not sure if I have Red Specs on ?

Klopp - Pep - Tuchel

GK - Alisson - Ederson - Kepa
LB - TAA - Walker - James or Azpilicueta (close though, Walker for his pace)
CB partnership = VvD + Matip / Dias + Laporte / Rudiger+Thiago or Christensen or Azpilicueta
LB - Robbo - Cancelo or Zinchenko - Alonso or Chilwell
DM - Fabinho - Rodrigo - Jorginho
CM1 - Hendo - Silva or Gundogan - Kante
CM2 - Thiago - De Bruyne - Havertz
WR - Salah - Sterling or Mahrez or Jesus - Mount or Ziyech
CF - Firmino or Jota / Jesus or Foden / Lukaku
WL - Mane or Jota / Grealish or Foden / Werner or Pulisic or Havertz

LFC = 8 - 1 - 2
MCFC = 2 - 5 - 4
CFC = 2 - 4 - 5

 

[beejay]

We are playing like the 2017-2019 version of this team with some amazing, entertaining games full of drama but without the super-focussed game management of the title winning 2019-2020 side.

I don't know why that is, but we can't shut up shop and rely on an organised defensive unit even though we have the same individuals. It did look yesterday like we ran out of legs, Fabinho was gone with 10-15 minutes left and I couldn't understand why we didn't make a substitution to give us more cover after the Salah goal.

We need to go back to that compact, organised game management when we have a lead but to answer your point, I don't think the current 1st eleven has the edge over our rivals although we now seem to have the 1st edition of Salah to make us genuine contenders.

 

[Frogfish]

We are playing like the 2017-2019 version of this team with some amazing, entertaining games full of drama but without the super-focussed game management of the title winning 2019-2020 side.

I don't know why that is, but we can't shut up shop and rely on an organised defensive unit even though we have the same individuals. It did look yesterday like we ran out of legs, Fabinho was gone with 10-15 minutes left and I couldn't understand why we didn't make a substitution to give us more cover after the Salah goal.

We need to go back to that compact, organised game management when we have a lead but to answer your point, I don't think the current 1st eleven has the edge over our rivals although we now seem to have the 1st edition of Salah to make us genuine contenders.

Mate you've just highlighted why (yesterday, Brentford needs a whole new thread to break it down) : Fabs (3 games in 8 days) & Hendo (2.5 games in 8 days) looked knackered, VvD not back to full strength (he said so himself in his last interview), no Thiago, covering for Milner (TAA may not be much better defensively but at least it is a formation that Matip and Hendo knew what to expect).

If anything I agree with the poster who said Klopp needed to bring on Keita for Jones but there's not much more you can expect when the team were close to out on their feet. Personally I think they did remarkably well that second half, to stay the full 90 mins, given the circumstances.

 

[Tinto]

I reckon we have the best attack and City the best defence.

And Chelsea the worst attack and us the worst defence.

There’s not much between the sides when it comes down to it currently.

 

[Halmeister]

I think we do have a better XI when everyone is fit, as well as the best manager, but after that our quality declines rapidly in comparison.

Alisson - though Ederson and Mendy are very good, too.

Trent - though he fits best with our style of play, I could see opposition fans siding with James or Walker given what they bring to their respective sides.

Virgil - easy

Matip - this is a tough one, and you can't really argue against say a Dias (though he's only had one season, really), Laporte, Rudiger, Silva etc

Robbo - another easy one

Fabinho - our most solid claim to the midfield, though you could argue Kante shades this one when fit. In fact, I would argue that. Both great players, though, and I'd be tempted to play the two of them.

Hendo - love him and integral to the way we play, but the others have better all round players. Wouldn't expect to see him included in an unbiased XI

Naby/Jones - again, take your pick from City's midfield here. De Bruyne obviously getting in.

Salah - another easy one.

Jota/Firmino - ironically, striker seems to be one of the toughest positions to call. City don't have one, I'm firmly of the belief Lukaku is a flat track bully and couldn't play in our system, maybe not City's either. Probably have to throw Lukaku in just based on name value, though in practice I doubt it would work out.

Mane - 2 years ago, he would be another shoo-in. Now you have to wonder if Foden and Grealish might have the edge on him.

So, you're probably talking 5 or 6 from our team alone. However, as we all know, it's City and Chelsea's strength in depth that give them the edge for me in an overall squad game

 

[rurikbird]

GK - Alisson - Ederson - Kepa
LB - TAA - Walker - James or Azpilicueta (close though, Walker for his pace)
CB partnership = VvD + Matip / Dias + Laporte / Rudiger+Christensen or Azpilicueta
LB - Robbo - Cancelo or Zinchenko - Alonso or Chilwell
DM - Fabinho - Rodrigo - Jorginho
CM1 - Hendo - Silva or Gundogan - Kante
CM2 - Thiago - De Bruyne - Havertz
WR - Salah - Sterling or Mahrez or Jesus - Mount or Ziyech
CF - Firmino or Jota / Jesus or Foden / Lukaku
WL - Mane or Jota / Grealish or Foden / Werner or Pulisic or Havertz

I think that's pretty reasonable and you could make a good argument for Mane over Foden. Definitely change Mendy for Kepa.

Again, what worries me is the balance in midfield. That's such a key thing and if something is wrong, it instantly affects everything else and at that point it doesn't matter what the individual qualities of other players are. City and Chelsea both have such ridiculous strength in depth in this area that you would bet they will go through the season with their midfield relatively well-balanced and effective in almost every game, so then you can build other areas of the team on top of that. We are still kind of in search of the optimal combination; on paper Fabinho-Hendo-Thiago looks by far the strongest, but I think this trio only started like 2 games together. The fitness and availability of the senior midfielders and the development of the likes of Jones and Elliott who can complement them is where our title bid will be won or lost.

 

[binomial]

No idea how much difference there actually is but for sure we have the worst squad out the top 4.

Liverpool will fans will say Alisson>Ederson, Matip>Dias, Fab>Rodri Jota>Foden Firmino>Jesus etc

City fans will argue vice versa.

Then you will always have a City v Liverpool combined XI and all this nonsense when we’re about to play.

For me personally the 3 you can’t argue is Virgil KDB and Salah.

 

[moron]

I said - Other - I actually don't know what our best team is, I have to ask questions of certain players - on a certain day yes they are better but on others I have a problem:

1) Jota/Bobby - don't always think they are the best, and if Divok was allowed a few games then who knows he maybe a better option to be just up front.
2) Midfield - not so sure about the third given we have to play Fab+Hendo all the time.
3) Defence - I don't honestly think TAA is an ideal defender, and I think Robbo's season is pretty average right now.

I think our team can match the others - but not necessarily better.

 

[Frogfish]

I reckon we have the best attack and City the best defence.

And Chelsea the worst attack and us the worst defence.

There’s not much between the sides when it comes down to it currently.

Yeah I don't really agree with that mate. If you look at the 'Best' player by player I did above you'd have to disagree on a lot to put City's defence ahead of ours. We literally have the best player in every position (IMHO).
Of course we've had some issues but we are working through them (VvD, TAA, Matip all out and returning) and if our first choice defence stay fit then I suspect the figures will show that by the end of the season.

Ali, Robbo, TAA, VvD, Matip and Fabinho vs. Ederson, Walker, Cancelo, Dias, Laporte and Rodri ?

With backups of Konate, Gomez, Kelleher & Tsimikas we have excellent cover too ... with the one exception of RB. Hopefully Bradley can come on leaps and bounds.

Our issues really do seem to be in midfield with the loss of Thiago and, very surprisingly, Elliott. At least Thiago is back after the international break and Keita is fit again.

 

[Frogfish]

No idea how much difference there actually is but for sure we have the worst squad out the top 4.

Liverpool will fans will say Alisson>Ederson, Matip>Dias, Fab>Rodri Jota>Foden Firmino>Jesus etc

City fans will argue vice versa.

Then you will always have a City v Liverpool combined XI and all this nonsense when we’re about to play.

For me personally the 3 you can’t argue is Virgil KDB and Salah.

FYI the BBC combined XI, voting prior to the City game, had 7 reds in it.

 

[keniget]

RE: Henderson's running power - it's absolutely a problem. As said in another thread, it's absolutely crucial whether Milner or TAA are playing at RB that we have a covering midfielder.

In terms of City vs Us, I was having this discussion the other day with a City fan and I think it basically boils down to your system, how you want to play and so forth so it's not a straight forward "who's better" because different players are better are different things.

Alisson vs Ederson - Ederson is a better fit for City because in terms of technique and passing he's the best around and doesn't get tested as much as Alisson does for us. For us Alisson is a better fit.

TAA vs Walker - Again, Walker is a better fit for them and TAA is a better fit for us. They have playmakers coming outta their ass in midfield and have probably lost count of the number of times Walker's pace has bailed them out.

Matip vs Dias - Matip is probably a player that no-one really knows that much about or appreciates outside of Liverpool. I'm pretty much sure most neutrals would pick Dias over Matip.

I think most would agree with VVD, Robertson, KDB, Salah and probably Mane making it into the side.

 

[Tinto]

Yeah I don't really agree with that mate. If you look at the 'Best' player by player I did above you'd have to disagree on a lot to put City's defence ahead of ours. We literally have the best player in every position (IMHO).
Of course we've had some issues but we are working through them (VvD, TAA, Matip all out and returning) and if our first choice defence stay fit then I suspect the figures will show that by the end of the season.

Ali, Robbo, TAA, VvD, Matip and Fabinho vs. Ederson, Walker, Cancelo, Dias, Laporte and Rodri ?

With backups of Konate, Gomez, Kelleher & Tsimikas we have excellent cover too ... with the one exception of RB. Hopefully Bradley can come on leaps and bounds.

Our issues really do seem to be in midfield with the loss of Thiago and, very surprisingly, Elliott. At least Thiago is back after the international break and Keita is fit again.

I don’t really disagree with you about the individual qualities of the players but what I’m thinking about is the approach to defending or attacking as a team

City have flooded their team with midfielders and control the game so effectively that they give up few real chances.

Whereas we're more open this season, which has seen us create more chances and score more goals but also give up more chances.

Chelsea are more cautious than us and City, which means they don't concede much but they're not as great at attacking as us or City.

 

[KopRed]

Rather than a player by player comparison, we do lose out on goals from midfield, by quite a distance.

Our main achilles heel is, when our front 3 (maybe 4 if we include Jota) are not firing, we don't have goals from elsewhere. We usually get a period in the season where that happens and we drop points. We can only hope to get as much of a lead as possible before that dreaded slump.

 

[rubans]

I got no issues with the first 11 but it’s push to expect the midfield trio of Hendo, Fabinho and Thiago to be remain fit. All missed significant periods last season and with the intensity expected in a Klopp midfield, it’s the area most likely to be our biggest issue second half of our season.
We should have got at least someone on loan if we are determined not spend significantly, like Anguisa from Fulham who has started brillianty at Naploi.

 

[Frogfish]

I got no issues with the first 11 but it’s push to expect the midfield trio of Hendo, Fabinho and Thiago to be remain fit. All missed significant periods last season and with the intensity expected in a Klopp midfield, it’s the area most likely to be our biggest issue second half of our season.
We should have got at least someone on loan if we are determined not spend significantly, like Anguisa from Fulham who has started brillianty at Naploi.

Clearly Elliott was the plan. That gives us 7 midfielders of varying skills and experience levels for 3 slots. Sounds about right. We also know the club will hold back if the player they want isn't available for another year. That may well be the case again - we'll have to wait and see.

 

[rubans]

Clearly Elliott was the plan. That gives us 7 midfielders of varying skills and experience levels for 3 slots. Sounds about right. We also know the club will hold back if the player they want isn't available for another year. That may well be the case again - we'll have to wait and see.

Problem is 5 (Naby, Hendo, Thiago and Fabinho) out of the 7 have persistent injury issues or in Milner’s case whom can’t be relied upon to play 90 mins over 2 games in a week.

I would assume, we have a target in mind and just preferred to wait but let’s see in Jan.

 

[Mystic]

RE: Henderson's running power - it's absolutely a problem. As said in another thread, it's absolutely crucial whether Milner or TAA are playing at RB that we have a covering midfielder.

Definitely felt like at the beginning of the season Elliott was intended to help with this, he was tracking back well and obviously has more stamina and speed than Hendo, if not the same instinct for danger and ability to deal with it.

 

[Frogfish]

Problem is 5 (Naby, Hendo, Thiago and Fabinho) out of the 7 have persistent injury issues or in Milner’s case whom can’t be relied upon to play 90 mins over 2 games in a week.

I would assume, we have a target in mind and just preferred to wait but let’s see in Jan.

I thought I'd take another look at the injury history (courtesy of Transfermarkt) of these players to see what they average out at and what we could reasonably expect / have expected for this season. I've not included games missed to Corona / Malaria / Flu because those are simply not injuries per se and literally anyone could catch them (esp. with International commitments) and can't be legislated for.

Games Missed

.............. 20/21 - 19/20 - 18/19 - 17/18 - 16/17 - 15/16
Keita : -----17 ------- 20 ------ 11 ----- 3 -------- 1 --------- 8
Thiago :-----5 ------- 17* ------ 10 ---- 7 ------- 20 -------- 5 * Tackle injury
Hendo : ---17 -------- 9 --------- 7 ----- 7 ------- 13 ------- 34
Fabinho : --11 ------- 13 ------- 2 ---------------------------------

An average over the past 3 seasons of : Keita (16), Thiago (11), Hendo (11) and Fabs (9). Prior to the season commencing one would expect Milner, Jones and Elliott (unlucky) to be somewhat less, so maybe 7 each? 68 games missed in total to injury.

Assuming 58 games over the season that means we would be missing 1.17 midfielders missing per game and so 5.83 midfielders still available at any one time. Add in youngsters able to fill in for them (CL x2 perhaps, LC x 3?, FAC x 2?) and the available players number increases slightly.

Those 7 players should normally be enough to cover us and still give us choices. We'd be very unlucky to not have 4-6 players per game to select from.

 

[Donavan Ried]

It's not that easy because of course formation affects personnel as do opinions and in some cases whether on the offensive or defending. Of course it's a team/squad game so even having the best in any position doesn't mean team superiority and just being the best doesn't say how far ahead of the competition you are so ... on any given day etc., some of these are very very close.

Red - best. Blue - runner up. Not sure if I have Red Specs on ?

Klopp - Pep - Tuchel

GK - Alisson - Ederson - Kepa
LB - TAA - Walker - James or Azpilicueta (close though, Walker for his pace)
CB partnership = VvD + Matip / Dias + Laporte / Rudiger+Thiago or Christensen or Azpilicueta
LB - Robbo - Cancelo or Zinchenko - Alonso or Chilwell
DM - Fabinho - Rodrigo - Jorginho
CM1 - Hendo - Silva or Gundogan - Kante
CM2 - Thiago - De Bruyne - Havertz
WR - Salah - Sterling or Mahrez or Jesus - Mount or Ziyech
CF - Firmino or Jota / Jesus or Foden / Lukaku
WL - Mane or Jota / Grealish or Foden / Werner or Pulisic or Havertz

LFC = 8 - 1 - 2
MCFC = 2 - 5 - 4
CFC = 2 - 4 - 5

Managers
Klopp on the fact that he has less financially backing than the other two

GK Ederson
RB Azpilicueta (More solid than TAA in defence)
CB VVD/Matip
LB Robbo
DM Fabinho
CM1 Gundogan
CM2 KDB
WR Salah
CF Firmino
WL Mane

 

[Squiggles]

I'm not sure any more. I've got concerns of varying degrees about Henderson, VVD, Mane, Firmino, which were not there when we stormed to a league title. Salah is the difference maker time and time again, but it's papering over a few cracks. There's nothing drastically wrong, of course, but fine margins make all the difference at this level.

Jury's out.