Lovren vs Agger
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It's not Lovren's fault we paid 20m for him and it's a big step up for him coming to a club the size of Liverpool (with the expectation he'll sort out our defence).
We seem to have lost the art of giving new players time to settle in a new team, especially one in which the raft of new players are collectively struggling to find some cohesion. Add in a keeper lacking conviction and it's always going to be a difficult start for him.
Lets wait and see. I happen to think he'll grow into the role.
As for Agger, it's telling for me that he ended up back at Brondby at 29 when every club in Europe knew he was available for a pittance.
We seem to have lost the art of giving new players time to settle in a new team, especially one in which the raft of new players are collectively struggling to find some cohesion. Add in a keeper lacking conviction and it's always going to be a difficult start for him.
Lets wait and see. I happen to think he'll grow into the role.
As for Agger, it's telling for me that he ended up back at Brondby at 29 when every club in Europe knew he was available for a pittance.
I do agree. We've had, under Rodgers, 3-4 £20m rated centre backs available to him at any one time and they have all, to varying degrees, struggled in this system.
In terms of organisation, we're not well drilled at all. If individual errors are creeping in, then it's symptomatic of our lack of cohesion and unity in defense. I think that's a two fold issue, both in terms of how we're coached and how we're set up in the variation of systems we use.
We play too wide apart at the back. The idea of a DM dropping in to the area between both centre backs is a sound one, if you've got one who has the legs and intelligence to cover this area AND fill in for AWOL fullbacks who are venturing forward. A sweeper of sorts who will be disciplined and play across the area just infront of the centre halves. Unfortunately it would seem that the gaps between the defenders means that you lose something in communication and understanding. Players get isolated and made to look like chumps, so yeah, it's fine saying that Skrtel/Lorvren/whoever fucked up, but the unforced errors are common because we're not built to play as a defensive unit. It's naive and amateurish to expect the defenders to be capable 100% of the time to control their zone, when their zone is so expansive. And you can't make a near mid 30's Gerrard into a suddenly disciplined machine who will plug the gaps. It just doesn't work and it makes him look vulnerable, which invites pressure, which forces errors, which leads to goals.
We get exploited too easily. We've struggled from setpieces for several years now, because the marking systems we employ are poor. We can argue all day about zonal v man marking, both systems are effective if you have the players to do it AND you are willing to compromise on both and to just concentrate on the basics. We don't. Add a keeper who lacks presence and has a tendency to parry balls back into the danger zone, and it all adds to the complete mess.
I'm not saying it's not the players fault, because they clearly play a part and we can all pick out their individual flaws and talk about them all day long, but then we could do that about John Terry or Hyypia, but they were two players who's flaws were protected by an organised coach. We were always going to lose some of our solidity by being brave and bold in our attacking approach, no complaints from me there, but we seem to have gone to the complete opposite end of the spectrum and the frustrating thing is that Rodgers seems equally as stubborn as his predecessors about it.
In terms of organisation, we're not well drilled at all. If individual errors are creeping in, then it's symptomatic of our lack of cohesion and unity in defense. I think that's a two fold issue, both in terms of how we're coached and how we're set up in the variation of systems we use.
We play too wide apart at the back. The idea of a DM dropping in to the area between both centre backs is a sound one, if you've got one who has the legs and intelligence to cover this area AND fill in for AWOL fullbacks who are venturing forward. A sweeper of sorts who will be disciplined and play across the area just infront of the centre halves. Unfortunately it would seem that the gaps between the defenders means that you lose something in communication and understanding. Players get isolated and made to look like chumps, so yeah, it's fine saying that Skrtel/Lorvren/whoever fucked up, but the unforced errors are common because we're not built to play as a defensive unit. It's naive and amateurish to expect the defenders to be capable 100% of the time to control their zone, when their zone is so expansive. And you can't make a near mid 30's Gerrard into a suddenly disciplined machine who will plug the gaps. It just doesn't work and it makes him look vulnerable, which invites pressure, which forces errors, which leads to goals.
We get exploited too easily. We've struggled from setpieces for several years now, because the marking systems we employ are poor. We can argue all day about zonal v man marking, both systems are effective if you have the players to do it AND you are willing to compromise on both and to just concentrate on the basics. We don't. Add a keeper who lacks presence and has a tendency to parry balls back into the danger zone, and it all adds to the complete mess.
I'm not saying it's not the players fault, because they clearly play a part and we can all pick out their individual flaws and talk about them all day long, but then we could do that about John Terry or Hyypia, but they were two players who's flaws were protected by an organised coach. We were always going to lose some of our solidity by being brave and bold in our attacking approach, no complaints from me there, but we seem to have gone to the complete opposite end of the spectrum and the frustrating thing is that Rodgers seems equally as stubborn as his predecessors about it.
Agreed. I remember Vidic's first season at Manchester United at 25, he looked like he had potential, but he was making lots of individual mistakes and generally looked unsure of himself, which was strange because at Spartak he was the epitome of confidence and leadership. It took a whole season for him to settle at United. Lovren is one year younger; he has an advantage of adjusting to the league for one year with another team, but like Vidic he never played in a big team with all the expectation and pressure that comes with it. I prefer to trust my eyes and judgement – Lovren will be a great defender for us once he settles. But the settling-in period might take up to one year.
Lovren is not a particularly quick runner, so I would be curious to see how he would do when paired up with Ilori next year. If that works well, Skrtel and Sakho might have to settle for being 3rd and 4th choice, because while they are not slow, they are not particularly quick either.
I would seriously consider Emre Can as our first choice defender now. He played there for Germany and it's the only hope in hell he has to get into their team, so he'd be down for a change of position.
With Lallana and Allen looking good, there's no point wasting someone as physically dominant as Can on the bench. Seeing how Agger was fucked off to Brondby, there should be no problem in telling Lovren or Sakho to fuck off to the reserves.
With Lallana and Allen looking good, there's no point wasting someone as physically dominant as Can on the bench. Seeing how Agger was fucked off to Brondby, there should be no problem in telling Lovren or Sakho to fuck off to the reserves.
It's just bizzarre... our narrative is this
Agger = Error Prone
Toure = Error Prone (but wasn't at other clubs)
Sakho = Error Prone (but isn't at national level)
Skrtel = Error Prone (but probably our best option)
Lovren - Error Prone (but not at other clubs)
And now we want to jaundice Can with this role?
It's revisiting a point, but at what point do we have to say it's a DM or a Coaching issue? Why not try a steely DM in there, and see what happens.
I'm not talking Lucas or Gerrard. Henderson? Can?
Agger = Error Prone
Toure = Error Prone (but wasn't at other clubs)
Sakho = Error Prone (but isn't at national level)
Skrtel = Error Prone (but probably our best option)
Lovren - Error Prone (but not at other clubs)
And now we want to jaundice Can with this role?
It's revisiting a point, but at what point do we have to say it's a DM or a Coaching issue? Why not try a steely DM in there, and see what happens.
I'm not talking Lucas or Gerrard. Henderson? Can?
The Agger saga seems to be getting misconstrued. My impression was that the only club Agger wanted to move to was Brondby as he had too much loyalty to move to another relevant club, and we honored his request because of again how loyal he's been to us.
We only got a paltry fee because Brondby don't have much spending power, but took the hit because that's what Agger wanted.
It's not how I would do business, but I can understand the sentiment.
We only got a paltry fee because Brondby don't have much spending power, but took the hit because that's what Agger wanted.
It's not how I would do business, but I can understand the sentiment.
Can should start as a DM. We should start using Gerrard off the bench either as DM or further forward depending on what is needed. Gerrard can add a lot more to the team that way than how he is used currently playing 90 minutes of every game we play as a DM whose lack of agility is weighing him down.
Just seeing this now. Great post Mark.
To validate the point further, almost all of the mentioned players are more solid playing for other teams
Toure is way past it AND was error prone towards the end at City, anyway.
Sakho for France seems good, but it was certainly not all plain sailing at PSG.
As for Lovren, I'd read plenty of people sounding loud warnings about him before he signed, based on his time at Soton and also at Lyon.
We who?
Haven't read this thread, but am I the only one who thought Lovern would be a shit signing from the word go?
The people who I read warning against the signing must have been reading different propaganda from you, then.
I've yet to see a single sign that he is the quality we need.
Not going to get into the Agger vs Lovren debate. it's pointless since Danny decided he'd had enough of top class football (notice he isn't doing very well in Danish football either).
Seems to me like there is a lot of negative opinion based not on facts/stats but bias. Same can be said of Sakho. It's really interesting to see how they match up against Jones/Evans/Koscielny (stats from 2013/14), since United & Arsenal are going to be our main competition this season. Notice how often Sakho plays forward passes (with a very high pass completion %) and also the number of errors be made that led to a goal.
It's also interesting to see the Lovren vs Koscielny match-up. I always rated Koscielny however he is not only inferior to Lovren overall but very much so to Sakho .. maybe helping to explain why Sakho keeps him out of the French national team.
I'd like to see them get a run together, they will improve and that pairing has the highest potential, we already know Skrtel's limitations and he's not going to improve at his age.
Seems to me like there is a lot of negative opinion based not on facts/stats but bias. Same can be said of Sakho. It's really interesting to see how they match up against Jones/Evans/Koscielny (stats from 2013/14), since United & Arsenal are going to be our main competition this season. Notice how often Sakho plays forward passes (with a very high pass completion %) and also the number of errors be made that led to a goal.
It's also interesting to see the Lovren vs Koscielny match-up. I always rated Koscielny however he is not only inferior to Lovren overall but very much so to Sakho .. maybe helping to explain why Sakho keeps him out of the French national team.
I'd like to see them get a run together, they will improve and that pairing has the highest potential, we already know Skrtel's limitations and he's not going to improve at his age.
Would be interesting to see how we got on with Sakho and Skrtel for a run of games.
Sakho injured as well isnt he?
Why are you bothered? He's shite. I'm kinda glad. It gives someone else a chance to step up.
The Liverpool defender Dejan Lovren has withdrawn from Croatia’s squad with an abdominal injury and is set to return to Merseyside for assessment.
The centre-back, who had to leave a training session after feeling a sharp pain, was due to play in Euro 2016 qualifiers against Bulgaria on Friday and Azerbaijan on Monday, but has now been ruled out of both.
Croatia’s FA said in a statement: “During training on Wednesday Lovren felt pain in the abdominal wall. Igor Biscan [a specialist] at St Catherine hospital showed there was a tear and he will not be ready for performances in Sofia and Osijek.”
Gordon Schildenfeld of Panathinaikos was called up to replace him in the squad.
Lovren will now return to Merseyside to undergo assessment by the club’s medical team, with 10 days before their next match. It is the second successive month the club have had players injured on international duty after Daniel Sturridge picked up a thigh injury with England.
Liverpool also lost Joe Allen after he injured a knee while on Wales duty, and fellow midfielder Emre Can who injured his ankle in Germany Under-21s’ 8-0 win over Romania.
With Mamadou Sakho also injured, Liverpool’s only two fit central defenders are Martin Skrtel – currently with Slovakia for matches against Spain and Belarus – and Kolo Touré.
The centre-back, who had to leave a training session after feeling a sharp pain, was due to play in Euro 2016 qualifiers against Bulgaria on Friday and Azerbaijan on Monday, but has now been ruled out of both.
Croatia’s FA said in a statement: “During training on Wednesday Lovren felt pain in the abdominal wall. Igor Biscan [a specialist] at St Catherine hospital showed there was a tear and he will not be ready for performances in Sofia and Osijek.”
Gordon Schildenfeld of Panathinaikos was called up to replace him in the squad.
Lovren will now return to Merseyside to undergo assessment by the club’s medical team, with 10 days before their next match. It is the second successive month the club have had players injured on international duty after Daniel Sturridge picked up a thigh injury with England.
Liverpool also lost Joe Allen after he injured a knee while on Wales duty, and fellow midfielder Emre Can who injured his ankle in Germany Under-21s’ 8-0 win over Romania.
With Mamadou Sakho also injured, Liverpool’s only two fit central defenders are Martin Skrtel – currently with Slovakia for matches against Spain and Belarus – and Kolo Touré.
because Sakho is out too. And I would like to give the Croatian project a little more time!
Isn't Igor's speciality a little lower than the abdomen?
Delighted for Igor that eventually found a job he was good at.
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