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She's dead

They didn't earn a wage before: living off an unsustainable, loss-making, nationalised industry is just a glorified life on benefits.

It's not at all. It's working for a badly run, inefficient non-profitable government organisation - like the majority of government organisations. The key difference is people actually did some work. I don't disagree changes were needed though to some of the unions but destroying them was not the right thing to do - and she was able to do that ultimately because of the massive unemployment she caused.
 
Although I often hear that said, I have never seen one iota of evidence that Thatcher felt that way about Liverpool. In fact, in 1982 after the Toxteth Riots, she sent Michael Heseltine up here to set up the Merseyside Development Corporation with a budget of some £500 million. No other Northern city received that sort of treatment.

It actually said it on that BBC Hillsborough documentary last week.

I believe the words were the government had "given up on Liverpool"
 
I'm no historian of the 80s but I reckon they were able to curb the unions because of the 3 big majorities they had in the commons, more than anything else, along with the farcical state of some of the industrial practices naturally making the public sympathetic to change.

I'm not sure whether the state should be in the business of employing some people at the expense of others, and helping some areas at the expense of others. Seems to me to be a complex, almost philosophical question, requiring careful thought.
 
It actually said it on that BBC Hillsborough documentary last week.

I believe the words were the government had "given up on Liverpool"


I think papers were released recently that specifically contradict that. Something along the lines of a member of the Cabinet reporting on the struggling northern cities, and recommending a policy of managed decline, but that she was unwilling to go along with that.
 
Although I often hear that said, I have never seen one iota of evidence that Thatcher felt that way about Liverpool. In fact, in 1982 after the Toxteth Riots, she sent Michael Heseltine up here to set up the Merseyside Development Corporation with a budget of some £500 million. No other Northern city received that sort of treatment.

£500 million ? Don't think the government contributed that much - most of it was leveraged from private investment

Most of the cunts wanted to see the back of this city because we've always refused to toe the line and basically transformed trade unionism as far back as 1911 when Churchill got troops to fire on crowds. "Justifiable homicide"



Thatcher government toyed with evacuating Liverpool after 1981 riots

National Archives files reveal ministerial warning to PM not to spend money on deprived city, saying decline was largely self-inflicted
TOXTETH-RIOTS--007.jpg

Toxteth, Liverpool, where rioting prompted ministers to consider a 'managed decline' during which residents would be encouraged to move elsewhere. Photograph: Sipa Press/Rex Features
Margaret Thatcher's closest ministers came close to writing off Liverpool in the aftermath of the 1981 inner-city riots and even raised the prospect of its partial evacuation, according to secret cabinet papers released on Friday.
They told her that the "unpalatable truth" was that they could not halt Merseyside's decline and her chancellor, Sir Geoffrey Howe, warned her not to waste money trying to "pump water uphill" and telling her the city was "much the hardest nut to crack".
The cabinet papers released by the National Archives under the 30-year rule reveal Thatcher's closest advisers told her that the "concentration of hopelessness" on Merseyside was very largely self-inflicted with its record of industrial strife.
The files show that when Michael Heseltine pressed the case to save Britain's inner cities with his cabinet paper, It Took a Riot, they ensured his demand for £100m a year of new money for two years for Liverpool alone was met with a paltry offer of £15m, with the condition that "no publicity should be given to this figure".
Although they never articulated the case publicly at the time, those telling Thatcher that there was little point in spending money on Liverpool also included the industry secretary, Sir Keith Joseph, and her Downing Street advisers, Sir John Hoskyns and Sir Robin Ibbs.
In a confidential note in the immediate aftermath of the Toxteth riots, Howe said that Heseltine's plans for a "massive injection of additional public spending" to stabilise the inner cities had to be rejected: "Isn't this pumping water uphill? Should we go rather for 'managed decline'? This is not a term for use, even privately. It is much too negative, when it must imply a sustained effort to absorb Liverpool manpower elsewhere – for example in nearby towns of which some are developing quite promisingly."
Howe told Thatcher that Heseltine's plan for a cabinet minister for every deprived region should be restricted to a one-year lone experiment in Merseyside after arguing that if there was any extra money he would rather spend it on the more promising West Midlands. He decried Heseltine's role as "minister for Merseyside" as an attempt by the latter to create a "godfather role" for himself.
The cabinet papers also disclose that the cabinet secretary, Sir Robert Armstrong, personally warned Thatcher that Heseltine, despite his undoubted "zest and panache'', was not the man to save Britain's inner cities arguing he was "distrusted and disliked in the local authority world". Armstrong suggested Jim Prior or Lord Soames would do a better job.
In his paper, Heseltine concentrated on the "devastating impact" of 30%-50% unemployment in some inner-city areas and described the outcome of postwar policy towards Merseyside as a "tactical retreat, a combination of economic erosion and encouraged evacuation".
Thatcher went to Liverpool and told community leaders she had come to listen. Her memoirs show that she did indeed listen to the views of some young people in the town hall but was so appalled by their bitter hostility to thepolice that she quickly starting begging them not to riot again.
They had complained that the cause of the riot lay in the police tactics of the Merseyside chief constable, Kenneth Oxford: "He believed in slapping people down and keeping them down," says the official record of the meeting. "The police had attacked the very community leaders who had tried to bring the riot to an end. They said the Liverpool police regarded anyone who was black as a criminal and acted accordingly."
When Thatcher complained to the archbishop of Liverpool, Derek Worlock, immediately afterwards about their "hatred of the police" he told her there was "a silent colour bar" operating in the city, saying there were only eight non-white police officers and neither councillors nor shop assistants from ethnic minorities.
But Thatcher said she was not concerned "about the colour of people's skins" and condemned the rioters as criminals. It was left to the Scarman inquiry to tackle the police racism that lay behind the complaints. The official papers confirm that the main response to the 1981 riots was to give forces better equipment and more powerful weapons.
The cabinet papers also show that a panicky Metropolitan police commissioner, Sir David McNee, told the prime minister at the height of the Brixton riots in July that he was unable to guarantee the security of the royal wedding of Prince Charles and Diana Spencer, which was due to take place the following month without the introduction of a modern-day riot act. He raised the stakes by telling her that he had already raised it with the Queen.
McNee presented Thatcher with a list of equipment he needed including riot shields, water cannon, rubber bullets and armoured vehicles – preferably painted blue rather than kept army grey, CS gas and even a "heli-telly" – an early mobile surveillance helicopter – during a midnight visit to Scotland Yard.
He said he was especially concerned about the arrangements for the planned royal wedding fireworks in Hyde Park which foreign dignitories would watch from a stand without any cover.
The government responded by immediately providing 1,500 Nato riot helmets from army stocks, asked the army to provide more baton rounds and six water cannon to the police and opened three army camps to be used as prison overflows.
A water cannon demonstration was also laid on but the use of troops was ruled out. "If necessary the police should be properly equipped and even armed, before such a step was taken," said the Downing Street note of a conversation between the home secretary, Willie Whitelaw, and Thatcher on 11 July when riots erupted in Moss Side, Manchester.
The minister finessed the demands for a new riot act but conceded that the police should be given the discretion to use rubber bullets and baton rounds for the first time in mainland Britain. In typical Whitelaw fashion he only made this concession after the chief constables had privately assured him that they would not use them.
The 1981 riots were Britain's worst urban riots of the 20th century, running from April to July and involving violent confrontations between mainly young black people and police in Liverpool, Manchester and parts of London including Brixton and Southall. More than 800 police were injured and more than 3,000 people arrested.
The disturbances came as Thatcher's early monetarist economic experiment plunged unemployment towards 3 million and her well-documented reaction to the first televised pictures of rioting and looting in Toxteth – "Oh, those poor shopkeepers" – illustrated the limited law and order nature of her response.
While she stood firm against Heseltine's attempt to create a traditional Tory drive to save Britain's inner cities, Whitelaw set about re-equipping the police with more modern helmets, shields and batons that would prove as important as building up coal stocks in Thatcher's showdown with the miners in 1984.​
 
Posh boy Fox telling us to shut up. Get your butler to write a letter of complaint to the 6CM management.

ha posh boy. Is posh being bought up in Portsmouth in a council house , one of the roughest places in Pompey as well Paulsgrove

mums was a cleaner and dad a taxi driver, ha posh

you twat , I am clearly not posh
 
It actually said it on that BBC Hillsborough documentary last week.

I believe the words were the government had "given up on Liverpool"

Your being very selective with your quote.

The documentary actually said her advisers urged her to give up on Liverpool and let it fall into a gradual decline. It also implied that she chose to ignore them.
 
I'm no historian of the 80s but I reckon they were able to curb the unions because of the 3 big majorities they had in the commons, more than anything else, along with the farcical state of some of the industrial practices naturally making the public sympathetic to change.

I'm not sure whether the state should be in the business of employing some people at the expense of others, and helping some areas at the expense of others. Seems to me to be a complex, almost philosophical question, requiring careful thought.

Or you could just forcibly close hundreds of workplaces, leaving towns & villages like ghost towns, & cities like ghettos, full of people with no money & no employment prospects with no viable alternatives for work in place, destroying future generations.
 
ha posh boy. Is posh being bought up in Portsmouth in a council house , one of the roughest places in Pompey as well Paulsgrove

mums was a cleaner and dad a taxi driver, ha posh

you twat , I am clearly not posh

no but you are a twat
 
ha posh boy. Is posh being bought up in Portsmouth in a council house , one of the roughest places in Pompey as well Paulsgrove

mums was a cleaner and dad a taxi driver, ha posh

you twat , I am clearly not posh

You're definitely on a very good wage though, & as a rule most people who are comfortable financially have sympathy for those tory cunts.
 
I'm no historian of the 80s but I reckon they were able to curb the unions because of the 3 big majorities they had in the commons, more than anything else, along with the farcical state of some of the industrial practices naturally making the public sympathetic to change.

And the fact people striking had no other options. They had to give in eventually. The unions held too much power though I do agree with that

I'm not sure whether the state should be in the business of employing some people at the expense of others, and helping some areas at the expense of others. Seems to me to be a complex, almost philosophical question, requiring careful thought.

That's how governments work though is it not ? Reducing one increases another though
 
I don't want to talk about or debate philosophies today. For me it's visceral. I have no empathy with her supporters but do for the lost industries, blighted regions, unemployed generation and un-society she deliberately created. What we now call Broken Britain is a direct legacy. It was not worth it.
 
Dunno, I don't read up enough on it.

I just go with what my parents tell me as they were newlyweds with a young family in the 70s. It was tough apparently.
 
I don't want to talk about or debate philosophies today. For me it's visceral. I have no empathy with her supporters but do for the lost industries, blighted regions, unemployed generation and un-society she deliberately created. What we now call Broken Britain is a direct legacy. It was not worth it.

"there is no such thing as society"

Fuck me.
 
Or you could just forcibly close hundreds of workplaces, leaving towns & villages like ghost towns, & cities like ghettos, full of people with no money & no employment prospects with no viable alternatives for work in place, destroying future generations.


Well personally that is my preffered response. Let them relocate to more prosperous areas. It's somewhat unfortunate for them but the miners in particular should've seen it coming: the industry was on its knees long before it finally got killed off by Thatcher.

Better for people to learn that they have to take responsibility for themselves and their families rather than being subsidised to live a certain way by other people. Painful at first, liberating and dignifying in the end.
 
You're definitely on a very good wage though, & as a rule most people who are comfortable financially have sympathy for those tory cunts.

Of course different parties benefit people in different positions and we vote for those specific parties because at the end of the day the majority of people are somewhat selfish and will do what they believe is best for themselves and their families.I despise most politician though, they're 95% cunts. Especially those useless liberal wankers. I firmly believe that most politicians are in it not for the betterment of society as a whole but because they're arrogant self-serving and power craving loons.
 
Forgot how she'd been sympathetic to the apartheid regime in South Africa and tried to resist the imposition of sanctions, calling the jailed Mandela a terrorist.
 
Of course different parties benefit people in different positions and we vote for those specific parties because at the end of the day the majority of people are somewhat selfish and will do what they believe is best for themselves and their families.I despise most politician though, they're 95% cunts. Especially those useless liberal wankers. I firmly believe that most politicians are in it not for the betterment of society as a whole but because they're arrogant self-serving and power craving loons.
You should live in Northern Ireland, you'd be a lot more appreciative of your politicians if you had to vote for halfwits criminals* for a while.

*I know most of them are criminals, but there are scales of criminality and ours are nearer the top end.
 
You should live in Northern Ireland, you'd be a lot more appreciative of your politicians if you had to vote for halfwits criminals for a while.


How will this go down in Northern Ireland Refugee, I expect she's still hated in the republican communities but is she revered by unionists?
 
You should live in Northern Ireland, you'd be a lot more appreciative of your politicians if you had to vote for halfwits criminals* for a while.

*I know most of them are criminals, but there are scales of criminality and ours are nearer the top end.

Yeah, our intelligent criminal mps are much more appealing.
 
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