So, Luis to Barca.....

[mark1975]

You'd think Suarez was the only good player to ever pull on the Liverpool shirt the way some of you are talking.

So he leaves? I'm not sure Anfield will collapse.

We'll have 80M to spend, the whole fucking world of footballers to look at, and the greatest cunt to ever play for us no longer at the club. I can live with that.

I don't think people are saying that, but he's one of the best players in the World, so of course there will be reservations about how successfully we can replace him. Using past instances as meaning it's a given, is dangerous thinking. It's not like we haven't blown big money on shite before.

 

[Buddha]

I don't know why everyone's sure we won;t get Sanchez. There's been a baseless regurgitated rumour that he prefers Italy/Arsenal doing the rounds (anyone know where that originated?) and the only half-reliable journo (Ben Smith, a few posts up) is saying it's not yet clear what Sanchez desires.

Sanchez has a chance to join a giant of a club, in the Champions league, and set up to get the best out of him in a fluid high energy attacking side.

Come on lad!

 

[mark1975]

I don't know why everyone's sure we won;t get Sanchez. There's been a baseless regurgitated rumour that he prefers Italy/Arsenal doing the rounds (anyone know where that originated?) and the only half-reliable journo (Ben Smith, a few posts up) is saying it's not yet clear what Sanchez desires.

Sanchez has a chance to join a giant of a club, in the Champions league, and set up to get the best out of him in a fluid high energy attacking side.

Come on lad!

The biggest thing we can sell to him is that we would worship him, assuming he does the business, he'd be the latest in a succession of heroes.

 

[mark1975]

You talk as if it's easy to a) replace a 30 goal striker and b) one of the top players in the world ... It's not ... and if we fuck it up, we're out of the CL ... You underestimate how good this player is, and how critical he was in our run last year ...

I don't think he's underestimating Suarez, I think he's underestimating how difficult it will be to effectively replace him and adjust to life without him.

 

[singlerider]

By 'clutch' do you mean someone that scores against the big teams, in pressure moments, when your team really needs it at the end of the season etc?

I honestly thought he'd put 'dutch' players, and was trying to figure out where the fuck he was coming from

 

[LeTallecWiz]

I don't think he's underestimating Suarez, I think he's underestimating how difficult it will be to effectively replace him and adjust to life without him.

Yah - I know he appreciates Suarez the player, but if you have to replace him with one player - there's only two who are better than him and we're not getting them.

 

[Ryan]

You talk as if it's easy to a) replace a 30 goal striker and b) one of the top players in the world ... It's not ... and if we fuck it up, we're out of the CL ... You underestimate how good this player is, and how critical he was in our run last year ...

Torres
Van Nistelrooy
Eto'o
Villa
Van Persie
Owen

All 20/30 a season goal players that have left their club, and the club hasn't been affected. In fact, in most of the above instances, the club did better the following year without them.

 

[Ryan]

I don't think people are saying that, but he's one of the best players in the World, so of course there will be reservations about how successfully we can replace him. Using past instances as meaning it's a given, is dangerous thinking. It's not like we haven't blown big money on shite before.

No more dangerous or lazy than making the assumption that selling a good player automatically means you will be worse off.

 

[dantes]

I don't think he's underestimating Suarez, I think he's underestimating how difficult it will be to effectively replace him and adjust to life without him.

We've been adjusting all the time. It's natural when you have a good player to conflate all the good things they done over many years into a single instantaneous combination of abilities of the player before you, but it's not the reality. Rooney is a good example.

Suarez joined us when he was 23. He used to run all over the pitch for 90 mins and made our whole attack a threat. As he's got older he's running less and less, playing more centrally and getting more opportunities to score. He's more like a pure finisher now, and it's folly to still imagine him as that player who took the attack to the entire defence single-handedly. He's just a goalscorer now, and we can definitely replace that one way or another as he is hardly the best finisher in the world. I can't remember the last time he put in a tireless performance chasing defenders down. Can you? It's only going to get worse with age.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Torres
Van Nistelrooy
Eto'o
Villa
Van Persie
Owen

All 20/30 a season goal players that have left their club, and the club hasn't been affected. In fact, in most of the above instances, the club did better the following year without them.

None of them - as far as I remember - were considered amongst the best players in the world.

Eto'o left Barca and was replaced by Zlatan.

Again though, I think you're underestimating what he brings to the team besides scoring (assists - how many times have those players hit 10 assists in one season? ... work rate etc) ...

No more dangerous or lazy than making the assumption that selling a good player automatically means you will be worse off.

I agree ... but you seem extremely confident that we'll get it right ... and I'm hoping you're right.

 

[Rosco]

It's a Jack and the Beanstalk scenario. We've got a cow that someone wants. We ought to keep the cow, but if we don't then we need the magic beans, not a fiver for the cow plus a sickly piglet. Magic beans or we keep the cow, feckers!!!

What's the deal with Barca's magic beans though, aren't they banned from using them after this summer?

 

[Rosco]

None of them - as far as I remember - were considered amongst the best players in the world.

Eto'o left Barca and was replaced by Zlatan.

Again though, I think you're underestimating what he brings to the team besides scoring (assists - how many times have those players hit 10 assists in one season? ... work rate etc) ...



I agree ... but you seem extremely confident that we'll get it right ... and I'm hoping you're right.

If everyone underestimates him then how do you explain both us and Ajax having better win ratios without him in the team?

I'm genuinely curious if anyone can logically explain that, rather than just dismiss it with the eye test argument

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

There was a pretty similar discussion in the Alexis Sanchez thread a couple of days back. So I guess I'll repost some of my comments there:

Man Utd, before and after Ronaldo:
-- 2006/2007 - 1st, 83 scored, 27 conceded
-- 2007/2008 - 1st, 80 scored, 22 conceded (Ronaldo's best season)
-- 2008/2009 - 1st, 68 scored, 24 conceded - Ronaldo with 18 goals, Rooney with 12, Berbatov with 9, Tevez with 5
-- Ronaldo and Tevez leave in the same window
-- 2009/2010 - 2nd, 86 scored, 28 conceded - Rooney (26), Berbatov (12), own goals (10), Nani (4)
-- 2010/2011 - 1st, 78 scored, 37 conceded - Berbatov (20), Hernandez (transfer in; 13), Rooney (11), Nani (9)

I'll add some data from the last 3 seasons:
-- 2011/2012 - 2nd, 89 scored, 33 conceded - Rooney (27), Hernandez (10), Welbeck (9), Nani (8), Berbatov (7)
-- 2012/2013 - 1st, - 86 scored, Van Persie (26), Rooney (12), Hernandez (10)
-- 2013/2014 - LOL

Replacing a world class player? Can be done, has been done. Spurs didn't manage to last season, but the Mancs succeeded. Arsenal lost Van Persie but didn't falter as badly as predicted because Cazorla, Podolski and Giroud chipped in with 11 to 12 goals each when they arrived and made up for the missing goals while Walcott stepped up and got 14. Nobody would've put these guys on the same level as Van Persie but the team ended the season with just two goals fewer. The next season, when the production from these guys bar Giroud all dropped due to injuries / loss of form, etc., Arsenal got 10 goals from Ramsey and some additional output from Giroud.

 

[Oncy]

I think people are a bit nervous on account of how Spurs fucked up the Bale money.

Usually when teams lose a top player they strengthen. The thing is Bale was so much better than anyone else at Spurs that he literally was a one man team winning them game after game.
With the best will in the world we had Coutinho, Sturridge, Gerrard and Sterling (arguably Henderson and Skrtel too) at times playing at that level too.
Suarez will be a loss in footballing terms hes fantastic, but we arent a one man team, not in the way that Spurs were anyway. So the incidents arent really comparable.
Bale leaving was probably better for Spurs in the longterm, but they lost their ONLY matchwinner from the previous season. We won matches before Suarez even returned from his SECOND bite ban.

 

[mark1975]

No more dangerous or lazy than making the assumption that selling a good player automatically means you will be worse off.

Christ Ryan, I know this, we all know this, but it's naive to think it's not a gilt edged situation, because it is. A bird in the hand and all that.

 

[Rosco]

People are judging the Bale decision based on headlines rather than reality, which was that it cost them three points if you want to look at it really simplistically.

And if Bale had only managed 27 games for Spurs this season, I doubt they could have gotten the same money for him.

Selling him was the right call, the replacements are very questionable

 

[Rosco]

Christ Ryan, I know this, we all know this, but it's naive to think it's not a gilt edged situation, because it is. A bird in the hand and all that.

Is it a bird in the hand?

What if we kept Torres, that would have been a turd in the hand. You never know how a players career will fare out, way too many things can change

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

I think people are a bit nervous on account of how Spurs fucked up the Bale money.

Usually when teams lose a top player they strengthen. The thing is Bale was so much better than anyone else at Spurs that he literally was a one man team winning them game after game.

With the best will in the world we had Coutinho, Sturridge, Gerrard and Sterling (arguably Henderson and Skrtel too) at times playing at that level too.

Suarez will be a loss in footballing terms hes fantastic, but we arent a one man team, not in the way that Spurs were anyway. So the incidents arent really comparable.

Bale leaving was probably better for Spurs in the longterm, but they lost their ONLY matchwinner from the previous season. We won matches before Suarez even returned from his SECOND bite ban.

It's an understandable fear. I also discussed the Spurs case in the Sanchez thread. Spurs actually lost more than Bale; they also marginalized Defoe and lost Dempsey (these two combined for 18 goals), and misused Adebayor. They got goals from two of their newcomers - Paulinho and Eriksen - and also improved production from Adebayor returning in favour under Sherwood, and these guys made up for Bale's missing goals. Unfortunately, in Soldado and Lamela, they had the busts of last season who scored only 6 goals between them and failed to cover the remaining 10-odd goals. Remains to be seen if Soldado will have another season like that.

 

[Hansern]

We're not exactly best in class when it comes to spending big though, so you can understand why people are nervous.
80 million or 50 mill + Sanchez is a lot of money. But we need to spend it correcty and not fuck up.
Spurs are a great example.

Pearce from the Echo tweeted that we certainly havent been told Sanchez isnt interested, so that is still a possibility.

 

[mark1975]

Is it a bird in the hand?

What if we kept Torres, that would have been a turd in the hand. You never know how a players career will fare out, way too many things can change

Of course it is, I understand the reason why were selling and that we're potentially holding a grenade (never mind a turd), but the issue is we have a brilliant player (regardless of the potential for bans, decline etc) and we have the offer of money.

You and I both know how hit and miss transfer dealings are. I get the Spurs comparison and I agree, over the course of 5yrs many of those players might serve them well, but it's still a "what if" and bolstering the squad has essentially seen them move sideways with a need to still reinvest.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

If everyone underestimates him then how do you explain both us and Ajax having better win ratios without him in the team?

I'm genuinely curious if anyone can logically explain that, rather than just dismiss it with the eye test argument

Respond to Dreamy's thread. It's related no?

 

[peterhague]

Although I agree with your premise I think your figures are way out. The money from the PL, Sky and CL means transfer fees have rocketed for high quality players and everyone knows PL teams have the cash. £10m is the new £5m, £20m the new £1m and so on. £40m would only cover 2-3 of those positions (though we already have cash to spend and will have more in the coming years if the sponsorship/prize money remains at such a high level).

You're forgetting the £60-70m budget as reported, plus a further £30m or so in sales.

So it's not £40m, it's more like £140m.

 

[Frogfish]

You're forgetting the £60-70m budget as reported, plus a further £30m or so in sales.

So it's not £40m, it's more like £140m.

I hope so.

However maybe we would have £35-40M remaining (assuming a slightly less ambitious sales figure if we don't sell as many or for as much) :

IF conservatively : Lallana (17) / Lambert (6) / Can (9) / Origi (10) / Sanchez (35) / Lovren (20)

 

[peterhague]

I hope so.

However maybe we would have £35-40M remaining (assuming a slightly less ambitious sales figure if we don't sell as many or for as much) :

IF conservatively : Lallana (17) / Lambert (6) / Can (9) / Origi (10) / Sanchez (35) / Lovren (20)

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there tbh.

 

[Frogfish]

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make there tbh.

Probably that we still wouldn't have enough to cover all the other positions suggested in this window ? We are probably going to need 2-3 windows to reinforce them with quality players.

 

[peterhague]

Probably that we still wouldn't have enough to cover all the other positions suggested in this window ? We are probably going to need 2-3 windows to reinforce them with quality players.

GK might have to wait, all the rest would be doable IMO.

 

[mark1975]

I think it's just important that we bring in a goal getter, even if it's a stop gap (not overpriced), I hope we don't, for example, sell Suarez and then think that bringing in any top player in a different position, will compensate, because it probably won't.

 

[Silver Sean]

I'd just like to point out that we have nothing in common with Spurs. Not one single thing. We are incomparable. Thank you.

 

[jimmy]

I'm afraid people are over estimating our appeal for foreign players even with CL football next season. Especially for latin players.
I really hope the Sanchez not wantibg to come is just a rumour as it is worrying if true.
Mascherano and Tevez are just two examples of top latin players who found the NW of England less attractive than Spain or Italy.
Ronaldo and Suarez are two moe who are attracted by the Spanish giants.
London also has its appeal (plus the big money) - see Costa and Fabregas.
Gone are the days when we could rule Europe and England with British players for whom LFC was the top of their aspirations.
So in short, we have a world class player on his way out. It will be extremely difficult to replace him. Especially with our less than impressive scouting department.

 

[keniget]

It's easy to be casual about Suarez going if you hate him.