Sunlit Uplands

[Richey]

Still.. Stevies point is the correct one. Last time Tories were accused of cherry picking parts for their own manifesto.

If I was Labour, I'd be keeping my cards close during this chaos too.

And that is fair enough, but the fact is that Sir Keir can only get so far with saying 'I'm not Boris'.

In a about a month, the Tory leader can reasonably reply 'I'm not either', so it will have to come down to policies.

I'm sure that Starmer is planning on associating the new PM with Boris, which he is likely to be able to do, but even that is a bit of a dangerous game, given who he himself took over from and supported in 2 general elections.

Don't get me wrong, I rather suspect that Labour will have a good shot at forming a government next time, but Sir Keir Starmer's boring presence is what gives the Tories a chance of recovering.

 

[Athens]

Tories are all "Starmer is so boooring"

 

[dantes]

Your heads up your hole if you think people were on their doorsteps clapping for Johnston.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1266241/clap-for-boris-johnson-coronavirus-intensive-care-video

Doesn't exactly look to me like she's in her basement reciting incantations to help ensure his death.

 

[StevieM]

And that is fair enough, but the fact is that Sir Keir can only get so far with saying 'I'm not Boris'.

In a about a month, the Tory leader can reasonably reply 'I'm not either', so it will have to come down to policies.

I'm sure that Starmer is planning on associating the new PM with Boris, which he is likely to be able to do, but even that is a bit of a dangerous game, given who he himself took over from and supported in 2 general elections.

Don't get me wrong, I rather suspect that Labour will have a good shot at forming a government next time, but Sir Keir Starmer's boring presence is what gives the Tories a chance of recovering.

Yes, but Boris replacement will have to keep “getting the big calls right”. “Get Brexit done”, “level up”, all the while “reducing taxes”, telling foreigners to fuck off while simultaneously negotiating trade deals with them, appease the DUP while not starting Troubles 2.0, convince Scotland not to say “fuck this for a game of soldiers” and Bugger off no back to the EU at the thought of another Tory term, all while inflation is rampant and GDP is fucked due to Brexit.

The would be the oven ready Brexit that’s seemingly still in the oven and starting to look and smell like Anakin Skywalker at the end of Revenge and of the Sith.

Added to that, the standard Boris response when he’s in trouble at PM’s Question Time, to invoke the ghost of Jeremy Corbyn, will be diminished and they have to find a way of luring all those Tory Party Russia donors back into the fold without Ukraine finding out.

Not to mention whatever stupid shite Boris has committed to that hasn’t come to light yet.

Meanwhile, Starmer just has to say and do as little as possible and let the complete cock wombles that permeate the upper echelons of the Tory Party, make an even bigger pigs ear of things than they already are.

With any luck we’ll end up with some people voting Lib Den, leading to a lab/lib coalition with the introduction of proportional representation and the Tory Party never, ever, ever being able to form a government again.

 

[MomoWASright]

Yes, but Boris replacement will have to keep “getting the big calls right”. “Get Brexit done”, “level up”, all the while “reducing taxes”, telling foreigners to fuck off while simultaneously negotiating trade deals with them, appease the DUP while not starting Troubles 2.0, convince Scotland not to say “fuck this for a game of soldiers” and Bugger off no back to the EU at the thought of another Tory term, all while inflation is rampant and GDP is fucked due to Brexit.

The would be the oven ready Brexit that’s seemingly still in the oven and starting to look and smell like Anakin Skywalker at the end of Revenge and of the Sith.

Added to that, the standard Boris response when he’s in trouble at PM’s Question Time, to invoke the ghost of Jeremy Corbyn, will be diminished and they have to find a way of luring all those Tory Party Russia donors back into the fold without Ukraine finding out.

Not to mention whatever stupid shite Boris has committed to that hasn’t come to light yet.

Meanwhile, Starmer just has to say and do as little as possible and let the complete cock wombles that permeate the upper echelons of the Tory Party, make an even bigger pigs ear of things than they already are.

With any luck we’ll end up with some people voting Lib Den, leading to a lab/lib coalition with the introduction of proportional representation and the Tory Party never, ever, ever being able to form a government again.

Utopia

 

[StevieM]

Utopia

Not the Sunlit Uplands they expected…

 

[Red Bird]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1266241/clap-for-boris-johnson-coronavirus-intensive-care-video

Doesn't exactly look to me like she's in her basement reciting incantations to help ensure his death.

Express as a source?

 

[Richey]

Maybe you are right, maybe Sir Keir can just say nothing and just sit it out. I personally very much doubt it.

By the way though, if you are hoping that a Labour led govt (even with the Lib Dems on board) would result in a change to the voting system you will probably be disappointed. First Past the Post as a system favours Labour. I think other than 2019 (and even then it was close) they have generally won more seats than they would do under a proportional system, even when they have lost. They are no more likely to want to change the voting system than the Tories are.

 

[peterhague]

Yes, but Boris replacement will have to keep “getting the big calls right”. “Get Brexit done”, “level up”, all the while “reducing taxes”, telling foreigners to fuck off while simultaneously negotiating trade deals with them, appease the DUP while not starting Troubles 2.0, convince Scotland not to say “fuck this for a game of soldiers” and Bugger off no back to the EU at the thought of another Tory term, all while inflation is rampant and GDP is fucked due to Brexit.

The would be the oven ready Brexit that’s seemingly still in the oven and starting to look and smell like Anakin Skywalker at the end of Revenge and of the Sith.

Added to that, the standard Boris response when he’s in trouble at PM’s Question Time, to invoke the ghost of Jeremy Corbyn, will be diminished and they have to find a way of luring all those Tory Party Russia donors back into the fold without Ukraine finding out.

Not to mention whatever stupid shite Boris has committed to that hasn’t come to light yet.

Meanwhile, Starmer just has to say and do as little as possible and let the complete cock wombles that permeate the upper echelons of the Tory Party, make an even bigger pigs ear of things than they already are.

With any luck we’ll end up with some people voting Lib Den, leading to a lab/lib coalition with the introduction of proportional representation and the Tory Party never, ever, ever being able to form a government again.

PR is the dream.

Get rid of Labour and the Tories for fucking ever. Absolutely useless bastards that they are.

 

[peterhague]

Maybe you are right, maybe Sir Keir can just say nothing and just sit it out. I personally very much doubt it.

By the way though, if you are hoping that a Labour led govt (even with the Lib Dems on board) would result in a change to the voting system you will probably be disappointed. First Past the Post as a system favours Labour. I think other than 2019 (and even then it was close) they have generally won more seats than they would do under a proportional system, even when they have lost. They are no more likely to want to change the voting system than the Tories are.

Which is why the whole thing is so fucking rotten. Two dead, laughably unappealing parties sustained by a rigged voting system.

 

[Lippy]

Maybe you are right, maybe Sir Keir can just say nothing and just sit it out. I personally very much doubt it.

By the way though, if you are hoping that a Labour led govt (even with the Lib Dems on board) would result in a change to the voting system you will probably be disappointed. First Past the Post as a system favours Labour. I think other than 2019 (and even then it was close) they have generally won more seats than they would do under a proportional system, even when they have lost. They are no more likely to want to change the voting system than the Tories are.

Why you trying to deflect onto Labour right now ? Let's face it Richey the Tories have absolutely destroyed this country over the last decade or so. Johnson has been a embarrassment. Brexit is a mess. The economy is fucked. People are struggling to live. More foodbanks than ever. Scotland are salivating for indyref2. Lying in Parliament has become somehow normalised. We're apparently willing to break international law over the oven ready Brexit deal. Actual human rights are being removed and they want to remove any kind of legal scrutiny they can. The lean towards fascism is slowly creeping in there. The NHS is completely broken due to years of underfunding. The Tories are in the pockets of billionaires. All so predictable and I could go on and on and on. It's YOUR party that's fucked this country but, instead of getting your own putrid house in order, all you seem to be focused on is Kier Starmers "policies" when they're not in government nor is there an election on - so why the fuck would he have any ? You support a political party and government full of absolute cunts so how about you try changing that first because it's so fucking rotten to the core.

 

[Lippy]

Back to the original topic. Where are all the sunlit uplands ? Where are the benefits ? Can anyone point anything tangible out because all I can see is a country falling behind other comparative countries in so many ways. What an absolute shit show. A massive snake oil dud sold to complete morons

 

[The Nomad]

Back to the original topic. Where are all the sunlit uplands ? Where are the benefits ? Can anyone point anything tangible out because all I can see is a country falling behind other comparative countries in so many ways. What an absolute shit show. A massive snake oil dud sold to complete morons

I'm sure Sunak and Zahawi can point to a benefit or two.

 

[Richey]

Why you trying to deflect onto Labour right now ? Let's face it Richey the Tories have absolutely destroyed this country over the last decade or so. Johnson has been a embarrassment. Brexit is a mess. The economy is fucked. People are struggling to live. More foodbanks than ever. Scotland are salivating for indyref2. Lying in Parliament has become somehow normalised. We're apparently willing to break international law over the oven ready Brexit deal. Actual human rights are being removed and they want to remove any kind of legal scrutiny they can. The lean towards fascism is slowly creeping in there. The NHS is completely broken due to years of underfunding. The Tories are in the pockets of billionaires. All so predictable and I could go on and on and on. It's YOUR party that's fucked this country but, instead of getting your own putrid house in order, all you seem to be focused on is Kier Starmers "policies" when they're not in government nor is there an election on - so why the fuck would he have any ? You support a political party and government full of absolute cunts so how about you try changing that first because it's so fucking rotten to the core.

I'm not defecting onto Labour. Someone else brought Labour into it. Not me. It was a discussion that I joined, not one that I started. I am certainly not trying to make this government look good by making Labour look bad.

did I ask about Labour policies? Yes, I did. Firstly, because when discussing politics it seems perfectly reasonable to ask what the alternative would be, and two, because in my opinion Labour won’t actually get that far on simply not being the Tories. Others don’t agree with this, and that is fine too. It’s my opinion though. When Labour last won an election from the Tories they had a vision, and appeal of their own. They don’t have it at the moment (again, my opinion). I’m not saying this as a ‘Tory’. Many Labour supporters would say exactly the same thing.

Moving onto the current government and Brexit. I did not vote for Brexit. I have said this many times. I voted to remain. I can’t really be a lot clearer on that.

Am I defending the current government? Nope, not done that either. I am glad Boris has gone.

Finally, please don’t personally attack me. I haven’t tried to do that to anyone else, and haven’t been rude to anyone. Either on this thread or elsewhere. I don’t think it is really on.

 

[Athens]

Back to the original topic. Where are all the sunlit uplands ? Where are the benefits ? Can anyone point anything tangible out because all I can see is a country falling behind other comparative countries in so many ways. What an absolute shit show. A massive snake oil dud sold to complete morons

Thanks to Brexit northern Ireland is performing better than the rest of the UK, except London.

There's one benefit.

 

[MomoWASright]

Back to the original topic. Where are all the sunlit uplands ? Where are the benefits ? Can anyone point anything tangible out because all I can see is a country falling behind other comparative countries in so many ways. What an absolute shit show. A massive snake oil dud sold to complete morons

I’m still getting those fucking cookies request shit on websites. They could’ve got rid of those. They’re so bloody annoying.

I know there is an add on for all browsers apart from safari that bypasses it but I just safari on my phone.

 

[Richey]

PR is the dream.

Get rid of Labour and the Tories for fucking ever. Absolutely useless bastards that they are.

I suspect they would probably find a way of adapting to be honest. Both of them have changed at times to suit the system that they are in so would probably do so again. But, yeah, if they ended up getting replaced with new parties then so be it.

 

[peterhague]

I suspect they would probably find a way of adapting to be honest. Both of them have changed at times to suit the system that they are in so would probably do so again. But, yeah, if they ended up getting replaced with new parties then so be it.

I know that probably nothing would change. Bit at least there'd be a CHANCE of the things I care about being talked about.

 

[Richey]

I know that probably nothing would change. Bit at least there'd be a CHANCE of the things I care about being talked about.

Yeah, fair point. I actually hadn't thought of that side of things before, I have to admit.

I am not wedded to the voting system as it is. I do think that having an MP for an area is a good thing, but I don't think that a change in voting system necessarily means that that has to go.

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

Yeah, fair point. I actually hadn't thought of that side of things before, I have to admit.

I am not wedded to the voting system as it is. I do think that having an MP for an area is a good thing, but I don't think that a change in voting system necessarily means that that has to go.

Why not have multiple MPs in an area though. Currently you have a scenario where I think there was a case where someone won, with only 25% of the vote. So, 75% of people had no representation in parliament. I don't know how many cases there are with a candidate being elected with less than 50% of the vote (the majority have no representation) but I think it's a decent chunk. Surely it's better to have more people with some representative?

I get it's unlikely to happen, as its not in Labour or the Conservatives interest though.

 

[Richey]

Why not have multiple MPs in an area though. Currently you have a scenario where I think there was a case where someone won, with only 25% of the vote. So, 75% of people had no representation in parliament. I don't know how many cases there are with a candidate being elected with less than 50% of the vote (the majority have no representation) but I think it's a decent chunk. Surely it's better to have more people with some representative?

I get it's unlikely to happen, as its not in Labour or the Conservatives interest though.

I think 229 out of 650 got less than 50%, so yeah, a decent number.

There actually used to be 2 member constituencies years ago. I am not sure why they got rid of them. And obviously local councils still operate that way.

Those are obviously with FPTP though, so I guess the closest would be when we had European elections, and we had multi member constituencies based on share of the vote.

Ultimately, yes, a system could be devised. It wouldn't be perfect I'm sure or suit everyone, but if the will is there....

You're correct though. It wouldn't suit the Tories (or Labour, though apparently I am not allowed to say that)

 

[Gerry_A_Trick]

SNPs won't like it either.

 

[Athens]

SNPs won't like it either.

Single-nucleotide polymorphisms? I'm not sure they have a vote, never mind a party.

 

[Richey]

SNPs won't like it either.

They don't seem to like anything very much.

 

[Red rose]

 

[Lippy]

I'm not defecting onto Labour. Someone else brought Labour into it. Not me. It was a discussion that I joined, not one that I started. I am certainly not trying to make this government look good by making Labour look bad.

did I ask about Labour policies? Yes, I did. Firstly, because when discussing politics it seems perfectly reasonable to ask what the alternative would be, and two, because in my opinion Labour won’t actually get that far on simply not being the Tories. Others don’t agree with this, and that is fine too. It’s my opinion though. When Labour last won an election from the Tories they had a vision, and appeal of their own. They don’t have it at the moment (again, my opinion). I’m not saying this as a ‘Tory’. Many Labour supporters would say exactly the same thing.

Moving onto the current government and Brexit. I did not vote for Brexit. I have said this many times. I voted to remain. I can’t really be a lot clearer on that.

Am I defending the current government? Nope, not done that either. I am glad Boris has gone.

Finally, please don’t personally attack me. I haven’t tried to do that to anyone else, and haven’t been rude to anyone. Either on this thread or elsewhere. I don’t think it is really on.

I'm not personally attacking you so soz of you thought I was. I will say my piece though. . I'm pointing out you're a full card carrying member of a party that's systematically destroying the country and the communities within it so they can further enrich their billionaire paymasters. That's not conspiracy theory it's reality. Did you vote Tory in the last election in the full knowledge that Johnson was a serial liar and he was going to be an absolute disaster for the country? You're an intelligent fella Richey you could see what was going to happen. It was glaring and if you voted for them you're as culpable for the state of the country right now as the scum in government IMO. That doesn't mean you are scum and if you want to read that as personal that's up to you. You want to change the Tory party don't vote for it. If you didn't vote for them then fair does. It's the same as those who voted for Brexit and now claim they were somehow lied to or mislead. Do me a favour. Met some absolute tool in Spain after the CL final. Resident there, "Cockney Red" (Utd) spouting some shite about how he voted for Brexit because he was "hoodwinked" into it and regrets it. Oh do fuck off. If people vote for something then they need to own it and accept they contributed to the problem thats there instead of trying to spin it onto the opposition. And maybe think twice about doing the same thing again just because "they always have". Like these prick Brexiteers blaming Remainers for Brexit being a mess. There's no such thing as a "Remainers Brexit" because they didn't want any form of it. Maybe people need to start thinking about voting with their conscience, if they have any, instead of historical allegiances. Maybe people need to stop blaming those they're being told to blame for their problems. Being told to by the pricks in the power and the media who are playing them like an absolute fiddle while they make more and more money they'll never be able to spend. Right now I won't be voting Labour which I always have just more Blair like Tory lite but one things without doubt and this current government is of dishonest scumbag proportions that have never been seen before. You can't help but see it but will you be likely vote for it again? I'll be amazed if you don't. The sad thing in the country is that all parties seem to have shifted somewhat to the right it's actually a dangerous political place to be right now.

 

[Lippy]

Well said that man. He's spot on. I never for my life understand why working class and even middle class people vote for those whose intentions are to make their lives worse. It's baffling

 

[Lippy]

So 38 pages and 18 months on and the amount of Brexity benefits and goodness is glaringly absent. Still waiting .......

 

[dogboy]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1266241/clap-for-boris-johnson-coronavirus-intensive-care-video

Doesn't exactly look to me like she's in her basement reciting incantations to help ensure his death.

Daily Express online? You're grasping there man.

 

[StevieM]

So 38 pages and 18 months on and the amount of Brexity benefits and goodness is glaringly absent. Still waiting .......

I have one positive.

It’s has kept Farage mostly quiet and off media for the last 12 months.