Where does Klopp rank against all time league greats? If at all.

[Whaddapie]

I view this question the same way that I view the 'who's the greatest F1 driver of all time' question... It's impossible to answer normally, as you cannot compare eras. And Jurgen has had to compete against the greatest period sustained financial cheating that the game's ever known... How more isn't made of that when people jerk off about this City team is beyond me.

I formulate my answer by rephrasing the question: If you put every driver into the exact same car, who would win? Same thing here, for me. You cannot simply use trophies won as a the barometer, as the circumstances each manager dealt with were very different.

When people compare Jurgen to Pep, I ask the question 'If they swapped places, would Pep have done at Anfield what Jurgen did, with such (relatively) limited resources? I can't see it. He's never not had limitless money to spend. Likewise, I think Jurgen would have won several European Cups with the team and the resources that Pep's had since arriving in England.

So, Jurgen over Pep for me there.

The others, it's a tougher comparison. I do think that Ginsoak and our Jurgen were very similar, and that he has to be at the top of any list for this topic. He also inherited a pretty mediocre side and turned them into a world-beater. He's no. 1, sadly.

Jose did great at Porto, then had all the money in the world at his disposal after that. he won a lot, but his football was fucking putrid and his plan B was often to send the big CB forward and just lump the ball up to him (see Anfield, THAT wonderful night). Also, he always wore out his welcome everywhere he went, and often quite quickly. For that reason, he's behind Jurgen, for me.

Wenger is a tough one. His teams were up and down, but when they were up, oh my goodness... And he did reinvent them, without the bottomless wallet that his main competition had. And his players seemed to love him, so I think I have to lean towards him being above Jurgen in this list.

So, having said all of that, I think I'm going to go with Whiskey Nose, Wenger, Jurgen, Mourinho and Pep.

In terms of LFC managers, that's another thread.

 

[Fabio]

I think Klopp’s better than Jose and it’s give and take with Wenger. Both transformed their clubs and I think Liverpool is in a better place now than when Klopp took over. Same as what Wenger achieved at Arsenal.

Both sacrificed trophies to build up their clubs.

And that's a more than fair assessment

 

[darkstarexodus]

I'm shocked Allardyce hasn't been mentioned yet. If he had an Italian sounding name, he'd be heralded among the true greats

 

[mark1975]

We all know the barometer for success differs across playing fields, years ago he'd have won more. He's had a really dominant Premier League to content with. People argued that Ged had it bad with United and Arsenal, then Rafa with Chelsea and their Russian money, but Klopp has had quite a few big sides to contend with AND big money all around him in other teams.

He's been served some really shit luck with injuries (maybe part and parcel of how he plays, but whatever), with a squad that couldn't cope with it, while his rivals had plenty more in reserve, yet he's still managed to push them all the way on a few occasions.

I think he's brilliant. In terms of character, the style of football, dragging us from the depths back to being challengers and what he has actually managed to win in a fiercely competitive League (and Europe), he's second to none.

Pep is a great manager, but as has been addressed a million times, he's had it handed it to him on a plate financially too. He's won loads because of his sheer quality, but he's got over the line more than where we have, because of the resources at his disposal. Given the financial gap, the fact that we've won the league and came within a point, without those reserves, says it all about Klopp's ability, focus and determination to make us winners.

It's a travesty we haven't won more, but that's not on Klopp. No wonder he's fucked.

 

[the count]

I think an alternate way of appraising how Klopp ranks, would be to consider how successful the other managers would have been with the Liverpool side that he inherited and the financial constraints he worked under

 

[peekay]

Ferguson is the only one I would rate above him. But even he did not have to deal with a cheat code like City. In terms of tactics, persona, style of football, player improvement, impact on morale, city, fan base, larger than life figure who radiates leadership, commonsense in these times - he is up there with the very best.

Deserves a statue !!!!!

 

[The Nomad]

I can't put Pep on a pedestal. Sorry... He's the manager of club 115. So he can't be above Klopp for that reason alone.

Definitely goes

Ferguson
Wenger
Jose
Klopp = Pep equal

Pep needs to manage a struggling team to be considered higher on my list. Those above him have transformed their teams.

 

[keniget]

I saw some stupid clip with Danny Mills (biased obvs and by the looks of thing a massive prick) where his argument was basically summarized by "1 title in 9 years". And that's what you're dealing with. Klopp clearly is one of the all time greats but let down by the fact that he's managed unfancied clubs over his career (and unfortunately lost one too many finals). That's part of what makes him great (well, not the losing finals bit) and a more naunced view will take that into consideration. Many won't.

In the PL era, I think most will have Ferguson, Wenger and Guardiola in the top 3. Then it's Mourinho and Klopp in whichever order. We'd probably have Klopp higher.

 

[Farkmaster]

Who gives a fuck how he's considered outside of Liverpool. We aren't writing a history of the league, and nobody who cares about this game is. Everyone is doing their own little tribe.

Ours is the one true religion.

Edit: I didn't realize Danny Mills had opined on this, that changes everything.

 

[Whaddapie]

Danny Mills can eat a big bag of dicks (not that there's anything wrong with that...). So can that arsehole Mickey Grey, the (alleged) Mackem whom I've heard use "we" about BOTH Manchester sides. I don't hate Stuart Pearce like I do those two cunts, but his "it'll mean more to Cheats 115 FC" bollocks and fuck right off, too.

I can take losing to a better side. I can accept that some clubs are richer than us and spend more. But I have no tolerance for cheats. EVERYTHING City have won since approx. 2009 (or whenever this all began) should be stripped and they should be banished back to the dark ages from whence they came.

 

[Tinto]

Ferguson’s record for his first nine years at United is pretty similar to Klopp’s. Two titles but no European Cup.

If Ferguson quit then, he would still have been considered one of the greats.

 

[tombrown]

Ferguson’s record for his first nine years at United is pretty similar to Klopp’s. Two titles but no European Cup.

If Ferguson quit then, he would still have been considered one of the greats.

That drunken Scottish tramp only ended a 27 year wait; Klopp ended a 30 year one.

Ergo Klopp is superior in all respects

 

[Dreambeliever]

Pep can get the fuck out of any list. The cheating lying prick.

 

[SummerOnions]

In the prem era, based on trophies and also balancing the net spend nerds:
Ferguson
Guardiola
Klopp
Wenger
Mourinho (feel like his Utd and Spurs stints lower his ranking)

 

[Frogfish]

Hate this "in the PL era" as if Sky invented football. Liverpool fans never used to be on that bandwagon and it's pretty sad to see the influence the media is having on the average fan.
Or maybe there are just fewer of us fans 'of a certain age' now.

To be clear people here are including Ferguson's record for the 7 years prior to the PL's inauguration in his PL record.

 

[Dreambeliever]

Hate this "in the PL era" as if Sky invented football. Liverpool fans never used to be on that bandwagon and it's pretty sad to see the influence the media is having on the average fan.
Or maybe there are just fewer of us fans 'of a certain age' now.

To be clear people here are including Ferguson's record for the 7 years prior to the PL's inauguration in his PL record.

Yep it’s an age thing now. The 80’s was 35 years ago!

 

[Whaddapie]

In the prem era, based on trophies and also balancing the net spend nerds:
Ferguson
Guardiola
Klopp
Wenger
Mourinho (feel like his Utd and Spurs stints lower his ranking)

I'm sorry... What now?

 

[Fabio]

Everyone cheats. Some more egregiously.

Ferguson’s record for his first nine years at United is pretty similar to Klopp’s. Two titles but no European Cup.

If Ferguson quit then, he would still have been considered one of the greats.

At that time certainly. After Wenger and mourinho he'd be bumped down.

 

[Fabio]

Hate this "in the PL era" as if Sky invented football. Liverpool fans never used to be on that bandwagon and it's pretty sad to see the influence the media is having on the average fan.
Or maybe there are just fewer of us fans 'of a certain age' now.

To be clear people here are including Ferguson's record for the 7 years prior to the PL's inauguration in his PL record.

Why wouldn't we focus mainly on the prem? It's been in (I'd imagine) a majority of the forums age bracket to remember, as well as to be able to see due to increased televised footage?

If we're doing all time in English football, does klopp break top 10?

 

[Frogfish]

Why wouldn't we focus mainly on the prem? It's been in (I'd imagine) a majority of the forums age bracket to remember, as well as to be able to see due to increased televised footage?

If we're doing all time in English football, does klopp break top 10?

Because the PL is a made for TV construct. Why on earth would anyone disregard pre-PL football trophies, managers and results in favour of a media promoted timeline cut off, is beyond me.

I've already answered the second question. To me it's unfathomable that people disregard Paisley, Dalglish etc but I guess they don't suit the media narrative.

I'd also add. What is the title of the thread!? There's no mention of PL!

 

[Fabio]

Because the PL is a made for TV construct. Why on earth would anyone disregard pre-PL football trophies, managers and results in favour of a media promoted timeline cut off, is beyond me.

I've already answered the second question. To me it's unfathomable that people disregard Paisley, Dalglish etc but I guess they don't suit the media narrative.

Yeah, the pl is made for TV construct....so more people have been able to see it? So they're going to judge based on what they've seen.

I've specifically left out paisley etc, for the same reason I've left out the Madrid manager in the 50s. I didn't see them, or see their football for 90+ minutes a week.

You're picking and choosing which arguments you follow. Paisley should be included because he won loads, klopps up there because he had a hard job.

No, which is it? I've said all along it's medals on the table and I'm focusing on the era I've witnessed. Klopps medals on the table in English football isn't that spectacular

 

[Fabio]

If you want to do an all time manager great list, crack on. That wasn't my point and never was. Youre insisting on changing the argument to fit your narrative

 

[Frogfish]

If you want to do an all time manager great list, crack on. That wasn't my point and never was. Youre insisting on changing the argument to fit your narrative

I'd say it's you who's done that. Where is PL in the thread title?

Reading comprehension : All Time?

 

[Hansern]

If you look at their managerial skills Klopp is up there with the best. He hasnt been driven by the clubs with the biggest budgets and still has been succesful.

Fergie, Wenger and Jose wouldnt have won the amount of titles they had with a City team up against them.

Klopp is one of the best for me. No doubt.

 

[Fabio]

I'd say it's you who's done that. Where is PL in the thread title?

Reading comprehension : All Time?

Blame dreamy and his reading comprehension, he made the thread, my original post on the topic (which he weirdly called me out for in the opening post of this thread) was entirely based on PL. And then dreamy gives only PL managers .

If we're going back further, it becomes impossible for me to compare, but i'd argue drops down even further, and maybe scrapes top 10.

 

[Dreambeliever]

Yeah, the pl is made for TV construct....so more people have been able to see it? So they're going to judge based on what they've seen.

I've specifically left out paisley etc, for the same reason I've left out the Madrid manager in the 50s. I didn't see them, or see their football for 90+ minutes a week.

You're picking and choosing which arguments you follow. Paisley should be included because he won loads, klopps up there because he had a hard job.

No, which is it? I've said all along it's medals on the table and I'm focusing on the era I've witnessed. Klopps medals on the table in English football isn't that spectacular

How mangers in English football have from the 90’s have won the league, CL, every domestic trophy and the WCC?
Only Ferguson and Pep have and Pep is cheating cunt who doesn’t deserve a single shred of praise. So all that leaves is Ferguson so never had to break 90 points to win it and often won it with low 80’s and even high 70’s.
Ferguson is lucky he only came up against Wenger and even then Arsenal were not at the level Liverpool have been with Klopp.

 

[Fabio]

If you look at their managerial skills Klopp is up there with the best. He hasnt been driven by the clubs with the biggest budgets and still has been succesful.

Fergie, Wenger and Jose wouldnt have won the amount of titles they had with a City team up against them.

Klopp is one of the best for me. No doubt.

But equally we don't know that. Who's to say that united couldn't have been a more dominant force, with the pull they have, and the finances they had, if they had a decent manager over the last decade? It's impossible to compare. i don't know if klopp would have fared better in the Fergie days, as there wouldn't be the same type of fitness regimes to allow the way we play football to be played. Klopp is a manager of his time; a high intensity manager helped by developments in science over the last 20 years.

I wish he won more, he deserved more; but so far hasn't

 

[Fabio]

How mangers in English football have from the 90’s have won the league, CL, every domestic trophy and the WCC?
Only Ferguson and Pep have and Pep is cheating cunt who doesn’t deserve a single shred of praise. So all that leaves is Ferguson so never had to break 90 points to win it and often won it with low 80’s and even high 70’s.
Ferguson is lucky he only came up against Wenger and even then Arsenal were not at the level Liverpool have been with Klopp.

Once more with feeling

My point, and always has been, and i have made this painstakingly clear throughout all this conversaiton, has been on english domestic, only. Not european. Add in European then yes, obviously klopp moves up a bit. Not much, as he still lost 3 european finals for us, but he definitely moves up

Fucks sake, genuinely people cannot fucking read, or don't bother their fucking arse to read because they're immediately assuming i'm slagging klopp off. Which i haven't. At any stage.

 

[Squiggles]

I'm not really arsed. I think ranking mangers from different periods is next to impossible. Neither Fergusson or Wenger had to compete against anything like the sustained quality of Manchester City. Even comparing Pep and Klopp is challenging enough and they're at the same time. Who knows where Benitez would have been with better ownership and competence.

I've seen enough to know that Klopp is comfortably the best manager I've seen at Liverpool. He has benefitted from FSGs general competence and skilled people behind the scenes, however he has also transcended all that to be the leading figurehead and has also rebuilt the effectively when the back of house operations has been a mess. He arguably should have won more, but neutrals will remember him for making the PL interesting and competitive and Liverpool fans will remember him for the title and the CL. Fergusson was the one to knock us off our perch then Klopp was the man to restore us back to being a credible, elite club that can match anyone in Europe.

 

[Brizzle]

I don't think one manager has ever been hit by so many outliers or external events that have cost him on the pitch

At a broad level - there is 115 breaches from Man City.
At match level think about things like the Karius concussion, the Paris police ensuring our crowd for that final was at 5% of its usual passion. The key VAR calls in the seasons we came runner up by a point, both in our games and city's games.

None of this in his control, and all of these not happening would have seen Klopp here with 2-3 PL titles & 2-3 CLs.