Blind faith

[Insignificance]

So the "mistake" he has done is to give the players already here a chance to prove themself and see if they are capable of adapt to how Klopp (and the two other guys) want to play. He has shown faith in some players that has had variable formcurve, and he has not bought players which would not strenghten the team on long term, but rather stick to those who already were equal good/shit but already here.

I believe in the way we are heading. Klopp is a well respected and obviously our biggest Star at the moment. Barcelona would rather get Klopp than Coutinho if one of them were available right now. I have big faith in the way he prefer to build the Club, and it is not a big secret that he prefers to create stars instead of buying them. However, he also prefers to fight for titles, and there should be no doubt that he has his eyes on both the PL title as well as the CL title. Can he lift both within the 3-4 next seasons? I am not overly optimistic, but I feel confident that if we are to establish ourself in a Group of teams that can Chase these titles he is the best candidate to build this club to that level.

 

[Skullflower]

Not buying in January when we were top was fucking ludicrous.

 

[Insignificance]

Not buying in January when we were top was fucking ludicrous.

Not if the available ones were equally good/shit to the ones we had before. What happened in January was a physical and mental breakdown due to several reasons. It happened and we learnt from it. But bringing in an overated guy to a high price (why would we get any stars in January anyway?) and then not have that cash ready for the summer was not a mistake. It was a gamble.

 

[Skullflower]

It was absolutely a mistake.

 

[Insignificance]

It was absolutely a mistake.

Nah. Wouldn't have made more than top four anyway based on the evidence, so I rather would have kept that cash for the summer when our real targets are available. Of course we could have taken Markovic back, loaned Caulkey again etc etc. But you must remember also that Klopp is a manager that has an ambigious style, and his players need time to adopt to it. He doesn't change the Whole game to suit one player that he accidentally got in cause noone else was availbale in January.

 

[Skullflower]

Nah. Wouldn't have made more than top four anyway based on the evidence, so I rather would have kept that cash for the summer when our real targets are available. Of course we could have taken Markovic back, loaned Caulkey again etc etc. But you must remember also that Klopp is a manager that has an ambigious style, and his players need time to adopt to it. He doesn't change the Whole game to suit one player that he accidentally got in cause noone else was availbale in January.

I really disagree. That's all I can be arsed typing though.

 

[Oncy]

Some really good posts in here.
Cracking old school football debate.

Klopp has made a lot of friends and has a lot of goodwill now from pretty much all quarters. Next season we need to see it translated into a tangible *thing*

Im not saying title, or even a cup. But something. A challenge, a couple of great cup runs, being a comfortable top 4 side.

Not a repeat of these shenanigans.

 

[gkmacca]

When it comes to the question, 'Why did it take so long to decide certain players aren't good enough,' again I think it needs a bit of perspective. The coaching staff have been here, what, a season and a half? You don't just go in and say, 'He's crap, he's not quite good enough, he's borderline...' etc etc. If you have a track record for developing and improving players, you will take about the time I said it took Klopp and Co to make those decisions. Moreno proved by the end of last season that he just won't learn. Others were really worked on - Ibe last season, a few others this - before the patience went, That's surely what you'd expect, especially when, unlike at Chelski or the manc clubs, you can't just go out immediately and solve problems a, b and c with a flash of the cash. And the beguiling and bewildering thing about some of our players was that they seemed physically and tactically open to improvement, but mentally they've been gradually found out. I think lessons have been learned, at the pace, in most cases, one would expect.

 

[Judge Jules]

Excellent post as per, esp.the point about players being found out mentally. Because of that I'd hazard a guess that the list of departures this summer will be longer than Klopp anticipated when he took the job.

 

[Insignificance]

Excellent post as per, esp.the point about players being found out mentally. Because of that I'd hazard a guess that the list of departures this summer will be longer than Klopp anticipated when he took the job.

I am not sure what to expect from the departure list. First of all I think Klopp also like to prove people wrong and actually work hard on prospects others wrote off. Secondly we need desperatly to increase the squad. Hence for each guy leaving you might need to guys in. And with the number of injuries combined with fatigue I am not sure he was got the answers he need either...

 

[Frogfish]

Excellent post as per, esp.the point about players being found out mentally. Because of that I'd hazard a guess that the list of departures this summer will be longer than Klopp anticipated when he took the job.

On the contrary. I'd be very surprised to see any senior player departures bar Sturridge, Moreno and maybe Klavan as I anticipate the competition at CB getting much hotter. We need to grow the squad substantially and if we currently need 5-6 first team players to do that then I don't see departures increasing that to say 9-10 senior players (inc. backups).

 

[Oncy]

Mignolet
Karius

Milner

Matip
Lovren

Clyne
Alexander Arnold

Henderson
Wijnaldum
Can

Lallana
Coutinho
Firmino
Mane

Ings
Origi

Thats about the sum of the squad we have for next season right?

There is definitely work to be done.

 

[Hansern]

Gomez aswell, but yeah. Work to be done.

 

[Oncy]

Gomez? Bring it on.

 

[Judge Jules]

On the contrary. I'd be very surprised to see any senior player departures bar Sturridge, Moreno and maybe Klavan as I anticipate the competition at CB getting much hotter. We need to grow the squad substantially and if we currently need 5-6 first team players to do that then I don't see departures increasing that to say 9-10 senior players (inc. backups).

Well, we also need to increase the quality of the squad, but actually I don't think it'll be as many as 10 either. I do suspect there are a number of first team players about whom Klopp's changed his mind since he first arrived, but I agree that the total is unlikely to be in double figures.

 

[peekay]

Firstly, people need to stop thinking it's just Klopp. Everything he does before and during a game of football is determined by discussions between him and Buvač. So if a fan thinks Klopp is missing something that they think is obvious, they need to reflect on the fact that both Klopp and Buvač are missing that thing that's obvious.

The second thing to consider is that these two have proven very impressive in their decisions over their careers. Dortmund wasn't a fluke. Believing in Rodgers was largely blind faith. To claim the same about these two is just stupid.

I think the three pillars of Dortmund's success was Klopp, Buvac, and Zorc. I think Klopp and Buvac are good enough to deliver us the league in the right circumstances. The right circumstances being having someone like Zorc in the background, who can deliver quality, value for money players.

In fact, I think every manager we have had since and including Houllier other than Hodgson was capable of delivering us the league under the right circumstances. Problem is that we have not had the footballing infrastructure to support the manager.

Credit to FSG, they are trying to be clever in some way with respect to recruiting. But the problem is that we have been shit at being clever. Irrespective of where we end up, there is no point in changing Klopp this year or next year. Unless we change the way we recruit or stumble into a couple of next Gerrard, Suarez, Torres, we are going to be around 5-6 with an occasional foray into champions league.

 

[Spionkop69]

Firstly, people need to stop thinking it's just Klopp. Everything he does before and during a game of football is determined by discussions between him and Buvač. So if a fan thinks Klopp is missing something that they think is obvious, they need to reflect on the fact that both Klopp and Buvač are missing that thing that's obvious.

The second thing to consider is that these two have proven very impressive in their decisions over their careers. Dortmund wasn't a fluke. Believing in Rodgers was largely blind faith. To claim the same about these two is just stupid.

The third thing is that they're operating with players who, in the main, aren't up to the standards they expect, and they concluded that earlier in the season. You can prepare players in certain ways but you can't make them more imaginative, or intelligent. I'd judge the management team on what they do in the summer and early next season.

Given what a wretched state the club was in when Rodgers left, it amazes me that some actually think we can still sit back and put the thumb down on a manager of Klopp's standing. We were ridiculously lucky to get him rather than another Hodgson-like buffoon.

Are Klopp and Buvač fallible? Of course. Is this squad good enough? No. Do Klopp and Buvač know what they're doing? More so than most on here do. Fact.

Very good and very balanced post.

Too many, not necessarily on here, but fans of the club in general think it's a simple job creating or changing a culture at a club. Particularly one like ours which cannot throw the same money as a few other teams can, without selling too.

If we get top 4 then that's progress, and our points total is progress. The league is now not just a top 4, there's a credible top 6 now.

There's been mistakes of course. We need to address the change in form and fortunes from the first half of the season to the second half of the season. We need to buy and retain players to strengthen the squad and first XI. Our bench of late has told a story when compared to our competitors.

I think Klopp needs more time and we need to give him that. This is about a long term change at the club not a quick fix which will not last.

 

[Frogfish]

Gomez? Bring it on.

And Grujic. The numbers will be made up by Woodburn, Ejaria, Wilson and Klopp seems to rate Brewster too.

Your squad (inc. Gomez and Grujic) is 18 strong, add the youngsters and that's 22 which probably leaves room for 6-8 senior players (unless Lucas signs a new contract).

 

[davud graham]

There's no point in getting ten players in and shipping ten players out. The team may be better quality but the squad will be just as vulnerable as we are now to injuries or loss of form from key players. Strength in depth is crucial and we just don't have it at the moment. At times it's been embarassing this season when we play teams with far less resources than us and they have more options from the bench than us. I'd prefer to keep some of the players who are first teamers now as squad players next season.
Like a few other people I was concerned how little cover we had in the full back areas going into the season and we've been lucky that MIlner and Clyne have had very few injuries but because he doesn't have many other viable options they have both played a lot of games and the pair of them look and play like they're very fatigued. Not just physically but mentally.

 

[Ryan]

When it comes to the question, 'Why did it take so long to decide certain players aren't good enough,' again I think it needs a bit of perspective. The coaching staff have been here, what, a season and a half? You don't just go in and say, 'He's crap, he's not quite good enough, he's borderline...' etc etc. If you have a track record for developing and improving players, you will take about the time I said it took Klopp and Co to make those decisions. Moreno proved by the end of last season that he just won't learn. Others were really worked on - Ibe last season, a few others this - before the patience went, That's surely what you'd expect, especially when, unlike at Chelski or the manc clubs, you can't just go out immediately and solve problems a, b and c with a flash of the cash. And the beguiling and bewildering thing about some of our players was that they seemed physically and tactically open to improvement, but mentally they've been gradually found out. I think lessons have been learned, at the pace, in most cases, one would expect.

I think the kicker to this too is that without CL football, he's been hamstrung in his ability to replace some of these players with anything significantly better. He's clearly looked at some of those players and weighed up the option of buying whomever will come to us without top-level football (at a premium price) or seeing what he can get out of these players, and gone with the latter. In some cases it's worked extremely well too - Lallana, Can, etc.

 

[King Binny]

For all the 'failings' against lesser sides, I think this is still quite a feat and justifies why faith in Klopp isn't totally blind:

 

[mark1975]

That's some record, if we can keep that up and turn around some of the tighter games and the occasional stupid capitulation, then we're onto a winner.

 

[King Binny]

And considering the lack of a prolific striker + absences of various (esp. attacking) players: