I'm not saying it's impossible, mate. I just don't think the signs point that way.
Bye bye Kenny (part 2)!!!!!
- Thread starter mr_moo
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
- Status
Well, possibly. But I'm talking about the sort of improvements you can measure, either from results on the pitch or results in the accounts.
Cold, hard, progress. Of course, a better atmosphere (if that's one of the things you're referring to) is conducive to those measurable results, but equally, if its impact on them is negated by other factors (as it must have been so far, given the lack of improvement) then it's not really worth a great deal to a club with any ambition, is it?
...still you want to give him another year?
Well, it would be helpful if you defined your criteria at the start rather than appear to keep changing it if anyone disagrees.
You're wrong. I'm merely using the criteria that have been used from the start of this particular discussion a couple of pages back, which I think were given as: debt levels, commercial performance, state of the academy, on-pitch performance. These were the things that JJ was arguing have been improved overwhelmingly due to Kenny's return, something I and others have disagreed with.
Points wise we're worse, but our performances are better than that shows.
We also won the carling cup & got to the final twice. That's an improvement on last season.
That's not how you started. You start with a vague and arrogant assertion, and then had to alter it, whilst adding another God-like assertion.
R
RedZeppelin III
Guest
and this is what liverpool , the " bastion of invincibility" has become ?
Only concentrating on cups one season and not being even good enough to compete in all comps the next . fuck me
we shouldn't dwell on the past. we DO NOT have the squad to properly compete in all competitions. we played lucas in the CC and lost him for the rest of the season with replacements being no where near his level. we simply cannot risk that again, not for the CC or the fa cup, it simply isn't worth it.
R
RedZeppelin III
Guest
What are you going on about? The discussion was clearly about Kenny's impact on the improvement of the state of the club as a whole. All I said was that the only place where he could've had influence was on the pitch and other minor team matters such as morale (ie not on the structure of the club, its debt levels, its commercial performance etc - basically the areas of performance where people commonly claim improvement has been made), and that given that there hasn't been any real imrovement on the footballing side, he couldn't be given credit (let alone overwhelming credit) for the improvements in the state of the club since FSG took over. If it was vague then it was only because my meaning should have been obvious to anyone not stupid or pedantic.
Credit to him for finally realising Carra was past it.
I'm glad we pay these managerial geniuses millions, where would we be without them.
small steps. it sucks but that is the position we are in now.
it's one thing to realise it and quite another to implement it.
Yes, filling out that teamsheet is something that only Kenny could have done.
It takes a special talent
Alot of it's subjective though. The signings have been a mixed bag, Carroll being the prime case in point, it's difficult to say whether he will be valuable to us in the longterm, yet people are already writing him off regardless - because of the fee. If you look at yesterdays performance, you'd have to say the ingredients are there for him to be a successful player for us, but he's not been without his flaws and his performances have ranged from once or twice looking like a top centre forward and on other occasions looking like a lower division yard dog.
But this is the crux of the issue, alot of what we've invested has (wrongly in the short term) been with a view to the future of the club. We might not be reaping rewards results wise, but in the longterm we could have a couple of top players on our hands, IF Suarez continues in the same vein, Carroll reaches the heights and Henderson and the likes of Shelvey push on with a years experience of a struggling campaign behind them.
We bought poorly at the very least in failing to recognise we needed a leg up and some quality players who would make an immediate difference, and in over paying, substantially.
On the flip side, I still don't believe results have always mirrored performances, we're clearly short of a couple of top players, but results are largely marginal and that's something that 'can' be rectified with the right players. Whether we're capable of that is another subject. But I don't think we're as far off as many have us believe. There's clearly other factors, notably a lack of experience, a shortage of confidence, and a lack of belief that only seems to be found when we go under the cosh. Our performance in the second half was as frustrating as that in the first half. Where the first 45 minutes w gave Chelsea far too much space and respect, in the second we had them all over place and showed we can play and attack with confidence and in numbers - when we want to.
You've mentioned the Academy and Commercial Performance. Those, as you well know, are factors that can only be measured in the longterm. You can't suddenly convert and Academy into a production line of the highest quality, improvements on that note can be rectified by implementing the correct staff, mentality and methods, but the rewards will only be noticed a lot further down the line. With the likes of Sterling, we're only now beginning to see the methods implemented by Rafa bare fruit. It's been a steady progress with the Academy since it's birth and it's something that can only be measured over several years. Commercially you could argue the same point, we're certainly expanding our Worldwide brand, but it takes time. The crux of the problem for us financially will always be making a decision and obtaining investment and resources for the stadium, a challenge in itself and again, a burden that lies heavily on the owners.
As for Kenny, as I said, taking results at face value he should be under immense pressure, but considering the wider picture, the fact we've got to two finals in his first full season, the form at the tail end of last season and occasionally against the big sides, the fact that, unlike Rafa and Houllier, he hasn't had the benefit of key players being at their professional peak (he doesn't have a top form Gerrard, Carragher, Fowler, McManaman, Owen anyway). We're in a period of transition anyway and an overhaul was required without an experienced backbone to build around. He's not identified or rectified that issue and that's where he falls on his sword, but given the opportunity to put it right with a couple of key signings might see us reap the rewards of persevering through the storm. He deserves more time and certainly more respect than he's had in some quarters. People are quick to say he's been out the game too long, well doesn't he therefore deserve time to find his feet? It was always going to worse before it got better, it might be a cliche but we punched above our weight last season, he was left with alot to do and it takes time. I know I laid into Rafa wasting money and Kenny doesn't escape that either, but this is his first full season, not his 5th. He needs perseverance.
I'm trying look for positives with regards to our debacle of a season
Mark I wouldn't necessarily disagree with most of that, but it's besides the point I and others have been arguing. Where people argue there has been improvement in the health of the club since FSG and Kenny came in they're usually talking about non-football matters like a sense of some kind of strategy, commercial performance, financial stability. They don't usually talk about on-pitch improvements because they're very debateable (although I'd agree not necessarily non-existent). All I'm saying is those other improvements people claim aren't down to Kenny. I honestly don't see how that's a controversial or 'arrogant' statement.
I´m just pleased that we actually belatedly made a fist of in yesterdays game to lose 2 nil against a disgraceful team like Chelsea would have been too much to take in such a miserable season. Drogbas dive in the second half was absolutely scandalous and alomst passed without mention. A great goal from Carroll, and not to soon was it that he actually looked something worth the price we paid. Personally I thought the second did in fact cross the line but you can probably see why the linesmen couldnt give it, tems the breaks sometimes.... im just pleased we didnt lose in a meek fashion after having such an appalling beginning to the game.
As for the season itself I discount the arguements in its favour as the patent nonsense that they are, It has been an unprecedented disaster from us, the worst season in my lifetime. Our league form has been truly unforgiveable and especially given the considerable outlay in Summer. 5 wins at Anfield all season does not smack of renaisance it smacks of poor decisions from top to bottom.
Which leaves the question where did it go wrong?
1. Up front. Spend 35 million on a reluctant striker and yet fail to play to his strengths, result low confidence and low goal return. Suarez dragging the club through the mud and hitting the post more often than the net. the fact that his mercurial skill has been our only true highlight to the season apart from the Carling cup just makes it worse in many ways. To blame the players for it misses the point however, we have needed better strength in depth up front for YEARS and it needs to be addressed especially in light of the goals from midfield drying up almost totally....
2. Midfield, Stevie rapidly approaching his twilight years, still a fine player but it would be impossible for him to be anything other than a shadow of his former self considering his younger luminous abilities. Spearing, tidy and hungry to do well but lacks quality, the only thing in his favour is we didnt spend 16M to acquire him. Henderson.... for every flash of good play 10 of bad, it has been a poor show from him. Downing, in my opinion we should expect a better return from an "established" senior player, I dont blame him so much as Kenny for buying him in the first place. A ridiculously bad signing. As for Charlie Adam, well he looked like what he is, a 7M pound player in a club far too big for his slow talents. However you cut it our midfield is utterly outgunned by the teams we would hope to finish alongside or above in the table, 8th or 9th is about right for that bunch.
3. Defence, not as bad but some worrying lapses in concentration, Pepe was right to admit to having had a poor season a terrible performace yesterday when it mattered after noises hes made over the last few years maybe his heart is not in it? Skrtel developing and Agger returning has been the only real bright spot for me this season. I was pleased with Enrique on the whole but sloppy mistakes like yesterdays have become a bigger feature as the season progressed.
4. Management
Kenny did everything by the rule book IMO but the trouble was he fucked it up from the get go. The signings policy didnt so much backfire as spontaneously combust. His spiky defences smacked of denial at times, I understand why he did it but at the same time reporters are not being unreasonable if they ask why the team has lost at home AGAIN. Im with Kenny on his dislike of the press and I realise that he has a sense of humour and no loyalty to anyone but his players and the club, and thats how it should be too but at the same time he could have played it differently and moderated his tone, there was no need to make enemies of the press.The Suarez debacle was disgusting and about as big a PR fuck up as you can engineer. I dont know what the truth of the incident was but the reputation if the club was dragged through the shit and left to fester. Was Kenny perhaps a little too inflexible?? Could he have changed it around and salvaged something from the wreckage earlier??
So...
Positives, although I think weve wasted fucking millions and not had an idea for much of the season as to what exactly is expected of a Liverpool team on the pitch something I will give Kenny credit for is the fact that you can see that the players do in fact want to play for him, lack of effort was not a problem this season and Kenny is responsible for that turn around. The truth remains that our starting 11 is simply not good enough in key areas, the centre of midfield and upfront. The fact that we had the money to improve there and wasted it to a large degree cannot be changed now but IF Kenny is still in situ next season and I hope he is not only for what he represents in his very being but for what he is capable of because of his character. IF Kenny is still in place then he must buy quality regardless of where it is from, obvious quality, dangerous players who give something to the team that breeds confidence and goals. No doubt hard to find and to buy but if other teams have them then Im sure so can we. Spearing and Henderson do not equal Alonso and Mascherano it is that simple. Kenny has shown that he can be loyal and get the players to play but he must give himself better tols to work with next time out.
As for the season itself I discount the arguements in its favour as the patent nonsense that they are, It has been an unprecedented disaster from us, the worst season in my lifetime. Our league form has been truly unforgiveable and especially given the considerable outlay in Summer. 5 wins at Anfield all season does not smack of renaisance it smacks of poor decisions from top to bottom.
Which leaves the question where did it go wrong?
1. Up front. Spend 35 million on a reluctant striker and yet fail to play to his strengths, result low confidence and low goal return. Suarez dragging the club through the mud and hitting the post more often than the net. the fact that his mercurial skill has been our only true highlight to the season apart from the Carling cup just makes it worse in many ways. To blame the players for it misses the point however, we have needed better strength in depth up front for YEARS and it needs to be addressed especially in light of the goals from midfield drying up almost totally....
2. Midfield, Stevie rapidly approaching his twilight years, still a fine player but it would be impossible for him to be anything other than a shadow of his former self considering his younger luminous abilities. Spearing, tidy and hungry to do well but lacks quality, the only thing in his favour is we didnt spend 16M to acquire him. Henderson.... for every flash of good play 10 of bad, it has been a poor show from him. Downing, in my opinion we should expect a better return from an "established" senior player, I dont blame him so much as Kenny for buying him in the first place. A ridiculously bad signing. As for Charlie Adam, well he looked like what he is, a 7M pound player in a club far too big for his slow talents. However you cut it our midfield is utterly outgunned by the teams we would hope to finish alongside or above in the table, 8th or 9th is about right for that bunch.
3. Defence, not as bad but some worrying lapses in concentration, Pepe was right to admit to having had a poor season a terrible performace yesterday when it mattered after noises hes made over the last few years maybe his heart is not in it? Skrtel developing and Agger returning has been the only real bright spot for me this season. I was pleased with Enrique on the whole but sloppy mistakes like yesterdays have become a bigger feature as the season progressed.
4. Management
Kenny did everything by the rule book IMO but the trouble was he fucked it up from the get go. The signings policy didnt so much backfire as spontaneously combust. His spiky defences smacked of denial at times, I understand why he did it but at the same time reporters are not being unreasonable if they ask why the team has lost at home AGAIN. Im with Kenny on his dislike of the press and I realise that he has a sense of humour and no loyalty to anyone but his players and the club, and thats how it should be too but at the same time he could have played it differently and moderated his tone, there was no need to make enemies of the press.The Suarez debacle was disgusting and about as big a PR fuck up as you can engineer. I dont know what the truth of the incident was but the reputation if the club was dragged through the shit and left to fester. Was Kenny perhaps a little too inflexible?? Could he have changed it around and salvaged something from the wreckage earlier??
So...
Positives, although I think weve wasted fucking millions and not had an idea for much of the season as to what exactly is expected of a Liverpool team on the pitch something I will give Kenny credit for is the fact that you can see that the players do in fact want to play for him, lack of effort was not a problem this season and Kenny is responsible for that turn around. The truth remains that our starting 11 is simply not good enough in key areas, the centre of midfield and upfront. The fact that we had the money to improve there and wasted it to a large degree cannot be changed now but IF Kenny is still in situ next season and I hope he is not only for what he represents in his very being but for what he is capable of because of his character. IF Kenny is still in place then he must buy quality regardless of where it is from, obvious quality, dangerous players who give something to the team that breeds confidence and goals. No doubt hard to find and to buy but if other teams have them then Im sure so can we. Spearing and Henderson do not equal Alonso and Mascherano it is that simple. Kenny has shown that he can be loyal and get the players to play but he must give himself better tols to work with next time out.
reluctant to fucking score ....
It makes no more sense. I put it down to either a bored feeling to say something silly or a lack of vocabulary.
A disheartened striker?
Much better, until recently. 'Reluctant' is just weird.
You could be right gk... how about goal shy??
but then again if you examine that phrase for what it actually says... hmm it is a tricky one.... or is it just a picky one? who is to say.
how about fuck off?
I'd say that's needlessly unpleasant and childish.
- Status
Similar threads
-
- Locked
