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Gerrard

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Fabio

Former mod, consistent c***
Honorary Member
Convince me he'll work in this system.


He's Clark Kent wanting to be superman, but he's not allowed to be. He can't be his all conquering self because the system doesn't allow it, he needs to be reserved, biding his time, waiting to strike, not trying to do it all himself.

Do we persist with him in midfield? Do we move him further up where his ability could easily transform our attack? Do we sacrifice him for a more patient midfield of shelvey Allen and sahin? Or do we persist? Hoping his age and need to be the hero don't cost the team?
 
It may be too harsh to say that Gerrard is "over the hill" but he's not the player he was.
 
I think he needs to be moved further up. His legs aren't what they used to be and he does have a rough idea of where the back of the net is.
 
I don't understand why he's playing as deep as he is regardless of systems. If our only other option is Shelvey, why on earth is Steven Gerrard not playing as our AM?

I dont think he has the legs to pressurise for 90m in the AM role. Shelvey has youth and a desire to impress and will run himself into the ground. Gerrard might be worrying about if the next injury would be the end for him.
 
I don't understand why he's playing as deep as he is regardless of systems. If our only other option is Shelvey, why on earth is Steven Gerrard not playing as our AM?

Cos he's been shit every time he's played there this season?
 
I dont think he has the legs to pressurise for 90m in the AM role. Shelvey has youth and a desire to impress and will run himself into the ground. Gerrard might be worrying about if the next injury would be the end for him.

I'm not that concerned about him being able chasing and harrying opposition defenders - he has to do plenty of running in midfield. Gerrard has played more killer balls and scored more goals than Shelvey has had hot dinners - let's give him a run of games to see if he can get into his stride again.

I don't really think it's opening some kind of can of worms by saying Gerrard isn't the player he once was. We all know he isn't and hasn't been for the last couple seasons. Let's try give him the best platform for a good send off though. He's still worth it.
 
It's a weird one. When he's previously been off form he's been off the pace and missing. This is the first time I've seen him in the middle of the action with plenty of energy but just messing stuff up. I think he'll click again soon.
 
I don't understand why he's playing as deep as he is regardless of systems. If our only other option is Shelvey, why on earth is Steven Gerrard not playing as our AM?

He had been though, he did against Arsenal anyway and gave the ball away constantly. It's not like he hasn't being playing the AM role much of the last year - he has, and for the most part hasn't looked that good at it. I think he's missing a striker like Torres/Owen to ping the ball through to, he's also, as Portly said, not what he was.
 
He had been though, he did against Arsenal anyway and gave the ball away constantly. It's not like he hasn't being playing the AM role much of the last year - he has, and for the most part hasn't looked that good at it. I think he's missing a striker like Torres/Owen to ping the ball through to, he's also, as Portly said, not what he was.

I agree. But we're operating on the principle of having better players around and a team that will hopefully struggle less and less over the course of the season, which will give Gerrard a better platform to regain some form.

Above all else though, I think Gerrard deserves a chance and our best efforts to get him back to playing well again. If we had a top player to come in and do the job no questions asked I'd perhaps be a little less sentimental about things but we don't. We have Jonjo Shelvey who right is now is showing a reasonable amount of potential but not a lot in the way of matchwinning performances. Say what you will about Gerrard but get the team playing and keeping the ball in the final third, get him in the thick of it and he will start to produce.
 
We desperately need lucas back and sahin match sharp so that we can push gerrard into the front 3 where he can do the most damage.
 
The idea that Steven Gerrard doesn’t fit a ‘system’ is fucking ridiculous. In fact, this idea of Rodgers of introducing a revolutionary new ‘system’ is even more ridiculous. I am no Rodgers doubter, but the way people talk about him establishing this hitherto unseen high-pressing possession based philosophy is cringeworthy. It isn’t particularly new to the PL or even to Liverpool for that matter. We practiced a half-decent version of it under Benitez, and we shouldn’t assume that our players are so alien or ill-fitted to practice it, least of all one of the finest players of the PL era. This is Steven fucking Gerrard we’re talking about. His powers might be on the wane, but he’s always been good enough to play any ‘system.’

The problem, along with his waning powers, isn’t the system but the position he’s asked to play. He’s never been effective in a deeper position he’s been asked to play so far, and this is a problem Rodgers needs to identify and rectify immediately. I made a post last week where I said the first thing Rodgers needs to fix is the rigidity of the 4-3-3 he’s played so far (i.e. converting it into the more familiar 4-2-3-1 while going forward. Rodgers might have this notion of front six of 3-3 – two banks of three players which equal ability and on the same wavelength to attack as a unit and win back possession from the front – presumably what Barca do, maybe someone can confirm – but the fact of the matter is we don’t have the personnel for that currently, so he needs to improvise and stick to what the squad is far more familiar with). And to Rodgers’ credit, he did exactly that this weekend, except he got the personnel wrong. Gerrard should have been playing the AM role with Shelvey deeper rather than the other way around.

The reason really is very simple. Gerrard is a pretty ordinary central midfielder, and always has been. Central midfield is about sitting in the middle of the park, and rotating and recycling possession efficiently and endlessly. It’s about creating a fulcrum in the centre of the park, and making the sure the front 4, and the two-full backs can push forward together, maintaining shape. It’s not about moving the ball forward, it’s about moving your teammates forward. Xabi Alonso was a master at it, and Joe Allen is proving himself impeccable at it. Gerrard is largely rubbish at it. His instinct is moving the ball forward, not the team. That’s a quality you need in the final third, NOT in the centre of the park. Just watch a highlight reel of Gerrard’s performance against Sunderland – look at the number of times he receives the ball in the centre of the park, dawdles on it, waits for movement from the final, and attempts to play an incisive pass. That isn’t how you fucking play in central midfield. You never dawdle on the ball in the middle of the park – you lay it off, you find space nearby, you recycle possession quickly, and you make sure your front 4, and full-backs are ready to move forward. Gerrard playing central midfield is like a point guard who knows to run the fast-break but is completely clueless in a half-court set-up.

But that’s not his fault – he’s never been a CM. That’s not his skillset, he’s never developed it, Unfortunately, whenever he’s played at CM, he’s been lauded by the media or completely moronic pundits about how fantastic his passing ability is, or how he grabs the game by the scruff of the neck while playing central midfield. It started off as a desire to paint him as Liverpool’s response to Keane/Vieira, and then later as England’s midfield general. Fact of the matter is, he turned out to be a completely different player from both Keane and Vieira, and both Houllier and Benitez always preferred two of Didi, McAllister, Spud, Alonso as their midfield two, and Gerrard as their third. And rightfully so. He was the best damn third midfield of this generation. Better than Lampard, and better than Ballack, who were his contenders for the title then.

And IMO, he can still play that role, and play it well. It isn’t a role that requires legs, or running power, or aggression etc. Those qualities made Gerrard stand out in that role. But it isn’t what made him successful in the first place. In the midst of all those fantastic qualities, people forget how technically gifted Gerrard is. He isn’t just a wonderful athlete, but a wonderfully skilled footballer as well. 150 goals – that’s what he’s scored for us, and there’s this video on Youtube which shows all the goals he’s scored in his career. Here it is, in fact:



There’s stuff in there that the likes of Ronaldinho would’ve been proud of. I did a post a long time back about identifying the best attacking players of this generation using stats – goals and assists. 100 goals, 50 assists, and at least one 20 goal, 15 assist season. Gerrard was one of the few in that list alongside Henry, Ronaldhinho, Messi, Ronaldo. That’s a bloody rare distinction, and you don’t rank there by being an athlete alone. You get there having attacking ability in spades.

And that’s the ability he’s not lost, or is unlikely to lose ever. And it’s why he should always play in the final third. He’s an attacking midfielder, one of the best of this generation. And yeah, he’s no longer the athlete he once was, but he’s still the best attacking midfielder at the club, and that’s where he should play unless we're replacing him with someone considerably better.
 
He had been though, he did against Arsenal anyway and gave the ball away constantly. It's not like he hasn't being playing the AM role much of the last year - he has, and for the most part hasn't looked that good at it. I think he's missing a striker like Torres/Owen to ping the ball through to, he's also, as Portly said, not what he was.
That's another part of the problem. You need an off-the-ball runner up front, preferably through the middle. We have the sort of player in Borini, but he's been played on the wing so far. Borini up top, with Gerrard behind him is what should get the best out of both.

I don't think Gerrard is finished as an AM at all. Keni is right, get the team dominating possesion, get Gerrard in the final third, and good movement up top, and he'll thrive again. He may have lost a fair bit of athleticism, but he hasn't lost any of his ability. People forget that despite his injuries, wane in powers, lack of form, he still banged in 9 last season, second only to Suarez.
 
But that’s not his fault – he’s never been a CM. That’s not his skillset, he’s never developed it, Unfortunately, whenever he’s played at CM, he’s been lauded by the media or completely moronic pundits about how fantastic his passing ability is, or how he grabs the game by the scruff of the neck while playing central midfield.

My impression has always been that this is the role that comes naturally to Gerrard. I think he sees himself winning the ball deep and bringing it forward. When asked to play further forward his instinct is always to drop back. That IMO is what went wrong in the Cup Final. The plan seemed to be that Gerrard would play behind Suarez but he dropped back as he so often does, and Suarez ended up isolated, with Gerrard acting as an unnecessary third central midfielder.
 
That's another part of the problem. You need an off-the-ball runner up front, preferably through the middle. We have the sort of player in Borini, but he's been played on the wing so far. Borini up top, with Gerrard behind him is what should get the best out of both.

I don't think Gerrard is finished as an AM at all. Keni is right, get the team dominating possesion, get Gerrard in the final third, and good movement up top, and he'll thrive again. He may have lost a fair bit of athleticism, but he hasn't lost any of his ability. People forget that despite his injuries, wane in powers, lack of form, he still banged in 9 last season, second only to Suarez.

I don't think he's finished mate, people have said the same about Scholes and co for years and they're alot older. We can only go off the evidence infront of us though and over the last couple of seasons, his ability to score and make a difference consistently has waned quite alarmingly. I do think if we click as an attacking force then yes, he should be in the thick of it AND will benefit hugely from it.

I'd be tempted to try him on the right again if we're talking about keeping him in the thick of it, but then that means dropping Borini, it's pretty clear though that something's not right and playing him in the AM role is doing nothing for him or us.
 
My impression has always been that this is the role that comes naturally to Gerrard. I think he sees himself winning the ball deep and bringing it forward. When asked to play further forward his instinct is always to drop back. That IMO is what went wrong in the Cup Final. The plan seemed to be that Gerrard would play behind Suarez but he dropped back as he so often does, and Suarez ended up isolated, with Gerrard acting as an unnecessary third central midfielder.
I think it's a role he imagines himself to be naturally good at - and it's borne by the media's desire to paint him initially as the heir to Keane/Vieira's throne as the best enforcer in the league, and later, as England's saviour. And yeah, he huffs and puffs and takes long strides and flies into tackles like no other when he plays that role, but rarely to any avail. England have always been fucking shit, and whenever he's played that for us in any match of importance, he's been given a footballing lesson (remember Vieira in the FA Cup final). It's a role, I think, which makes him feel heroic, but mostly miserable.

On the contrary, he's at his smiling, happiest best when he's in the final third, scoring goals without any pressure of trying to make the team tick, which he never realises, he's quite shit at.

The problem of him dropping back in recent years is a good observation, but I think is one that has largely arisen from having ineffective central midfields. We had no such problem when Didi, McAllister, Alonso, Mascherano pulled the strings in midfield.

Thankfully, we seem to have regained some semblance of quality in central midfield, so now seems a good time to push Gerrard forward with instructions to stick there, and let Allen and co. do the job of making the team tick.
 
He has lost a yard of pace and a chunk of confidence but thats not really the issue, the issue is he has always been poor positionally, wandering around the pitch where ever he wants. He has never worked in a midfield other than one set up specifically to absolve him of any positional/defensive responsibility.

He wont get that from Rodgers, not in midfield so the solution seems to be either he moves up to play as part of a front 3 or not at all, in midfield hes becoming a liability not just because he keeps giving the ball away but because his wandering leaves the other midfielders with too much ground to cover and not enough options when in possession as happened to Allen numerous times on Saturday
 
stevie is still our best player IMO, its up to Rodgers to fit him in.

I was very interested in the MOTD piece on comparing Allen's passing with Stevie's more direct FORWARD ones.
 
I was very interested in the MOTD piece on comparing Allen's passing with Stevie's more direct FORWARD ones.

I thought that was unfair to Allen. You can prove what you like by selecting a couple of 2-second clips from a 90 minute match.
 
Shearer gave a good analysis on MOTD about Allen and Gerrard. He highlighted Allen playing short sideways passes too many times, keeping it patient from deep, then showed the forwards who were getting doubled up on in the meantime by the midfield. Then it showed Gerrard being positive a couple of times, getting the ball and looking ahead, playing a long pass into feet in the final third or for someone to run onto. It's great that we're looking at being more possession based and patient in the build up, but it's also important to be more direct too to not allow the opposition to regroup and defend in numbers. We've done the patient play thing countless times and ended up with a bank of 8 players to get through. I'm not advocating tossing the ball in at every opportunity hoping it sticks, but just generally being more varied and positive. Incidentally, the two passes it showed, one released Johnson or Sterling down the left, giving him loads of space to run into and putting the opposition on the back foot, and the other was a first time ball into Johnson near the edge of the Sunderland box, which led to him hitting the bar. So for all this skepticism, there were some positive and almost fruitful aspects to his play on Sunday.

Makes you wonder if it's just a lack of finishing power that's costing us, or a lack of intent too and a refusal to be direct and positive from the off. Watching those clips again, it cut out a shit load of fucking around, passing it around to then get to the edge of the opponents box, by having the ability to do it in one moment of boldness. That's probably why he's giving it away a bit too, but anyway. We need to strike a balance and he needs help from his team mates too.
 
I thought that was unfair to Allen. You can prove what you like by selecting a couple of 2-second clips from a 90 minute match.

I'm a huge fan of Allen, but I did think Shearer (astoundingly) was right about that. In fact, the criticism could be made of the team as a whole. It's arguably down, in part, to the tentative movement, but as the clips showed there are a few options that aren't being exploited. We've been painfully slow moving the ball out from the back ever since the end of Kenny's first managerial era, and so far under Rodgers we're not much better than what's gone before, and just as predictable. It'll improve in time, I'm sure, but it's a tad frustrating. As far as Gerrard is concerned, I wish he wouldn't fizz the ball at teammates when a more measured ball is on - several times in a match he'll hit it so hard that it cannons off a teammate's shin or ankle and he reacts as if the player should have controlled it. I doubt Messi could control all of the balls Gerrard blasts at a teammate from close range. Maybe he's over-anxious and is trying to push on but it's hopeless when the receiving player is surrounded with defenders and needs a better paced ball to play a one-two.
 
Whilst I agree with the basic point that Gerrard could play in any system, it's quite clear that he's finding the current one a little problematic. The emphasis for so many years has been Stevie to do something special - indeed, our over-dependence on him was cited as one of our biggest problems by many. The "one-man team" accusations were frequent, and for long periods, perfectly justified. With the emphasis now firmly on the team rather than any individual, I think he's struggling a bit with the adjustment.

Under Rodgers, we are expected to build the attacks gradually, and patiently - something which is an almost alien concept to Stevie. Stevie has always been about urgency - he likes to find the quickest route to goal, whether it be with a bursting run from midfield, or a defence-splitting pass from range. What's more, he's not used to playing the ball simply - he likes to find a bit of space and pick out an eye-catching pass ahead of him. Again, this doesn't fit a system designed to move the ball quickly, and progress the team fluidly as a unit. Particularly when he doesn't have a Torres forever making runs in behind the opposition's defence.

Lastly, I think there is an element of ego involved. Not only does Stevie have to adapt to a new way of playing, but he has to accept that his role has diminished somewhat these days. He's been accepting the plaudits for his majestic displays for most of his career, and he probably misses the adulation that went with that, and perhaps wants to recapture it again. I certainly get that impression at times watching him play. There's certainly an element of him trying too hard, and I don't think he displays the same patience as some of his team mates.

On the face of it, it appears that the new system does not play to to his strengths. However, as dmishra says, Stevie is one of finest footballers of his generation. His strengths are many, and there will always be room to accommodate someone with his skill set, whatever the sytem. There's no reason why he can't play his trademark probing passes under Rodger's - I think he just has to learn when to do it, and perhaps place a greater emphasis on short passes. He's getting a schooling from Joe Allen in that respect, so perhaps it will start to rub off on him.
 
Oh, and I'd like to add that on the whole, I think Shearer's punditry is fucking awful, and illustrates perfectly why his short spell in management was, well, short.
 
are we in danger of becoming the Arsenal of the last 6 years with all the pretty footy but no trophies.
 
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