Lucas

[TheBunnyman]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=44105.msg1281271#msg1281271 date=1297114303]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=44105.msg1281224#msg1281224 date=1297111499]
got caught in possession several times yesterday, needs to release the ball much faster.
[/quote]

Yep he made two mistakes that I can think of - all to do with dwelling on the ball but one of them was due to us, as a team, trying to play clever triangles in the wrong part of the pitch. Like other posters have said though, so did other people - make mistakes. Everthing wrong that Lucas does is completely and unfairly magnified at times - especially on here. The lad had a cracking game yesterday Neil. This isn't aimed at you in particular but people need to take the blinkers off and judge him on his actual performances. He has good and bad games like everyone but never seems to get much praise when it's duly deserved. When he does have a bad game though, and he does, he's fucking slaughtered. He's never going to be a classy skillful midfielder but I actually think he's earnt a place in our squad now. The lad's improved immensly and has worked his bollocks off to do so and in the face of huge criticism - I know, I gave it myself - and still will do when it's due. But it's about time people get off the 'Lucarse' bandwagon and start giving credit and criticism where it's due and not just the latter.
[/quote]

'He never seems to get much praise'? Are you kidding? He gets loads of stick, but he also gets more praise than most other players put together. I mean, most of our team was very good yesterday but they don't all have individual threads devoted to them. And let's not forget RAWK - a website about 50 times bigger than this one which is basically a Lucas cult. Lack of praise is not the problem here. Lack of objectivity, maybe.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=TheBunnyman link=topic=44105.msg1281275#msg1281275 date=1297115347]
Lack of praise is not the problem here. Lack of objectivity, maybe.
[/quote]

Same difference.

 

[Sunny]

Oh and we had a Carra thread. A Meireles thread. An Agger thread. And a Glen Johnson thread. And a Poulsen in a pear tree.

 

[Rosco]

Does anyone thnink his performance yesterday was Busquets-like ?

 

[Ryan]

It's nice to have an actual discussion about the lad without somebody force-feeding you "The cunt's a CUNT" posts every 5 seconds.

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=Rosco link=topic=44105.msg1281281#msg1281281 date=1297116589]
Does anyone thnink his performance yesterday was Busquets-like ?
[/quote]

Didn't see the game but thats potentially high praise indeed

 

[Y1]

2 incidents stood out for me regarding Lucas in the Chelsea game.

One was when Drogba easily and almost effortlessly bundled him over and took the ball to Torres who nearly scored if Caragher had not block the shot. This made me think he is not there yet and a bit weak physically still.

The second was during the dying minutes of the game when he took hold of the ball and took a solo run with the ball and took it out of our half into Chelsea's half away from danger. For me that is energy, calm thinking and a bit classy.

No doubt he has improved, but he has to cut off some of the silly tackles to award free kicks just outside our box.

 

[Mistadobalina]

Lucas is looking like a decent player I must admit it! I hope he continues to improve as his confidence blooms.

 

[RolandG]

Lucas has worked on his upper body strength and will continue to do so. Drogba bundled him over which is no big deal because he does that to most people.

Lucas made some outstanding tackles in our final third and disposessed more than a few Chelsea players. While he still gives away silly fouls, his tackling, passing and decision making has greatly improved.

Instead of backward and sideway passes, he is breaking up opposition play and starting attacks.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=RolandG link=topic=44105.msg1281388#msg1281388 date=1297140387]
Lucas has worked on his upper body strength and will continue to do so. Drogba bundled him over which is no big deal because he does that to most people.

Lucas made some outstanding tackles in our final third and disposessed more than a few Chelsea players. While he still gives away silly fouls, his tackling, passing and decision making has greatly improved.

Instead of backward and sideway passes, he is breaking up opposition play and starting attacks.
[/quote]

I commented on the Drogba one in the ratings thread. Sure, Drogba is a beast but Lucas fell off him too easily and went to ground which meant he couldn't hassle him. That's the kind of problem Lucas has. Everyone makes mistakes and while I personally think that Lucas makes fewer mistakes than most people he seems to compound his mistakes either by immediately making another one or by making the mistake at a very inappropriate time/location.

What is in his favour - and ignored ad nauseum by many on this forum - is the tackling he does. The stats posted by Binny were astounding - that Lucas made fully one third of all successful tackles made by the team against Chelsea is nothing short of astonishing. There have been a few of us arguing that this theory of him constantly giving away fouls when he is tackling is inarguably the result of a blind agenda. Again, as these stats suggest, this year and last year he has been the leading successful tackler in the team. Given we had the "world class" Mascher here last season that stat requires serious consideration.


Just for the record, not for one moment am I suggesting that Lucas was/is on the same level as Mascher; I'm simply saying that you can't use one measurement to crown a player world class and the same measurement to condemn a different player as useless without having a serious problem with bias.

 

[Ryan]

[quote author=Y1 link=topic=44105.msg1281373#msg1281373 date=1297133452]
2 incidents stood out for me regarding Lucas in the Chelsea game.

One was when Drogba easily and almost effortlessly bundled him over and took the ball to Torres who nearly scored if Caragher had not block the shot. This made me think he is not there yet and a bit weak physically still.

[/quote]

Agger, Carragher, Gallas, Vermaelen.

4 top quality defenders off the top of my head that Drogba has physically monstered off the ball and scored against.

I know the Lucas incident you're referring to on sunday, and whilst it was a shite error to be dispossed in the middle of the pitch like that, being bullied by Didier Drogba is nothing to be ashamed of. He aint the first, he won't be the last.

What's happening now is an irritating trend of poeple still deseprate to find fault in Lucas somewhere, anywhere. He's proven again, and agin that he can handle himslef in big games. That's Chelsea home and away this season that he can arguably lay claim to being the best midfielder on the pitch in. Add that to Arsenal away, United away and countless other top class performances that are increasingly becoming the norm rather than the exception.

Every player has their faults, some more than others. Lucas is showing more and more that he can handle himself with aplomb in the Premier League. We've got a good midfielder on our hands, who's improving by the week. Who'd have thought or said that a few years ago eh?

Well, me actually.

 

[Wizardry]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=44105.msg1281400#msg1281400 date=1297146446]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=44105.msg1281373#msg1281373 date=1297133452]
2 incidents stood out for me regarding Lucas in the Chelsea game.

One was when Drogba easily and almost effortlessly bundled him over and took the ball to Torres who nearly scored if Caragher had not block the shot. This made me think he is not there yet and a bit weak physically still.

[/quote]

Agger, Carragher, Gallas, Vermaelen.

4 top quality defenders off the top of my head that Drogba has physically monstered off the ball and scored against.

I know the Lucas incident you're referring to on sunday, and whilst it was a shite error to be dispossed in the middle of the pitch like that, being bullied by Didier Drogba is nothing to be ashamed of. He aint the first, he won't be the last.

What's happening now is an irritating trend of poeple still deseprate to find fault in Lucas somewhere, anywhere. He's proven again, and agin that he can handle himslef in big games. That's Chelsea home and away this season that he can arguably lay claim to being the best midfielder on the pitch in. Add that to Arsenal away, United away and countless other top class performances that are increasingly becoming the norm rather than the exception.

Every player has their faults, some more than others. Lucas is showing more and more that he can handle himself with aplomb in the Premier League. We've got a good midfielder on our hands, who's improving by the week. Who'd have thought or said that a few years ago eh?

Well, me actually.
[/quote]


:🙂 ;D

 

[RolandG]

I think the most telling shift in opinion comes from one of his former critics and a LFC legend, Ian St. John -

On Sunday, St John noted something remarkable, more thrilling in its way even than the huge performance of the returning Jamie Carragher and the latest example of the match-winning marksmanship of Raul Meireles.

He saw Lucas look like a midfield player, a real one who involved himself in joined-up moves, who passed the ball and then found more advanced and menacing positions with something that looked like genuine conviction.

"Kenny doesn't pretend to be a coach," St John goes on. "He's gone out and got himself a top one in Steve Clarke. Kenny doesn't take training but he watches training, he sees what's happening and when I saw Lucas on Sunday I said to myself, 'Yes, he's had a word with the lad. He's told him where he isn't coming up to scratch. He's told him that there really isn't any such thing as a withdrawn midfielder because every formation anyone ever dreamt up is changed by the movement of the ball and the opposing team.'

"No, there's no withdrawn midfielder in the books of football men like Kenny. There are midfielders with responsibilities, and they include the ability to adapt to the moving game.

"For a long time I'd said that as far as I was concerned Lucas could get on the next boat to wherever he came from – but not on Sunday, the boy looked as though he could play and that he really wanted to play. Of course, he has to prove himself between now and the end of the season, but you could see things happening, enough of them to make you wonder about old judgements."

 

[tombrown]

Doesnt feel liek a real Lucas thread ... what happened to Brendan?

 

[Y1]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=44105.msg1281400#msg1281400 date=1297146446]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=44105.msg1281373#msg1281373 date=1297133452]
2 incidents stood out for me regarding Lucas in the Chelsea game.

One was when Drogba easily and almost effortlessly bundled him over and took the ball to Torres who nearly scored if Caragher had not block the shot. This made me think he is not there yet and a bit weak physically still.

[/quote]

Agger, Carragher, Gallas, Vermaelen.

4 top quality defenders off the top of my head that Drogba has physically monstered off the ball and scored against.

I know the Lucas incident you're referring to on sunday, and whilst it was a shite error to be dispossed in the middle of the pitch like that, being bullied by Didier Drogba is nothing to be ashamed of. He aint the first, he won't be the last.

What's happening now is an irritating trend of poeple still deseprate to find fault in Lucas somewhere, anywhere. He's proven again, and agin that he can handle himslef in big games. That's Chelsea home and away this season that he can arguably lay claim to being the best midfielder on the pitch in. Add that to Arsenal away, United away and countless other top class performances that are increasingly becoming the norm rather than the exception.

Every player has their faults, some more than others. Lucas is showing more and more that he can handle himself with aplomb in the Premier League. We've got a good midfielder on our hands, who's improving by the week. Who'd have thought or said that a few years ago eh?

Well, me actually.
[/quote]

LOL. Would not argue with that last question.

Now where is Brenden..... 🙂

 

[Buddha]

It's not like you're the only one Ryan. A good few on here have stood up for Lucas over the years to add to the entire community of RAWK (although their support has been somewhat myopic in it's positivity).

 

[Fabio]

Problem being is that mjost people think he's average (like myself). Yes he didn't deserve the harshest criticism but it's hard to whitewash some of the worst games out of the mind. If he keeps improving (which i think he will) then i'm pleased for the lad as he is all heart and you can tell he's putting the effort in.

 

[jexykrodic]

He's just the sort of player LFC needs: one who actually wants to play for us. Managers keep picking him, they must see something. When Kenny sees a better option he'll be replaced, until then he's earning his place in the team.

 

[Akakabooto]

The problem with Lucas is the opinions on him are too polarised. When he has a below average game and maybe makes one bigger mistake he gets rated on 2's and 3's and is called a useless cunt by his detractors. Again when he has an anonymous game without making big mistakes he gets 7's and 8's and there are people starting new threads and shouting 'told you so'.

He has certainly improved and is a decent player now but I also think he's still quite some way off from being a regular starter for a top team. I do hope he keeps improving though and I also hope people would just stop being obsessed with him one way or another.

 

[Fox]

lucas can be our Darren Fletcher, every team needs one.

I am hopeful (really) that he will keep improving and be the player we need to stop us spending £20 million on a so called top class defensive midfielder

 

[Pesam]

[quote author=Fox link=topic=44105.msg1281515#msg1281515 date=1297157054]
lucas can be our Darren Fletcher, every team needs one.

I am hopeful (really) that he will keep improving and be the player we need to stop us spending £20 million on a so called top class defensive midfielder
[/quote]

Lucas has no chance of becoming our Darren Fletcher, he's our Darren Gibson, Obi Mikel, Denilson, etc. The problem is he starts for LFC as often as Fletcher but should start as often as Gibson.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

Good post Ryan - but you make it seem as if he's far better than the is. He's a solid contributor and currently, an importnat part of Kenny's 1st eleven. I don't know what happens next year but I think most people are happy with him being our #3 CM after Meirless and Gerrard - but as we were going after Adam, I am interested to see how exactly our manager sees his future.

The last two sentences are totally unnecessary. Everyone stands by players who do well, and who don't live up to their expectations. For every Lucass, there's a .....

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=Ryan link=topic=44105.msg1281400#msg1281400 date=1297146446]
[quote author=Y1 link=topic=44105.msg1281373#msg1281373 date=1297133452]
2 incidents stood out for me regarding Lucas in the Chelsea game.

One was when Drogba easily and almost effortlessly bundled him over and took the ball to Torres who nearly scored if Caragher had not block the shot. This made me think he is not there yet and a bit weak physically still.

[/quote]

Agger, Carragher, Gallas, Vermaelen.

4 top quality defenders off the top of my head that Drogba has physically monstered off the ball and scored against.

I know the Lucas incident you're referring to on sunday, and whilst it was a shite error to be dispossed in the middle of the pitch like that, being bullied by Didier Drogba is nothing to be ashamed of. He aint the first, he won't be the last.

What's happening now is an irritating trend of poeple still deseprate to find fault in Lucas somewhere, anywhere. He's proven again, and agin that he can handle himslef in big games. That's Chelsea home and away this season that he can arguably lay claim to being the best midfielder on the pitch in. Add that to Arsenal away, United away and countless other top class performances that are increasingly becoming the norm rather than the exception.

Every player has their faults, some more than others. Lucas is showing more and more that he can handle himself with aplomb in the Premier League. We've got a good midfielder on our hands, who's improving by the week. Who'd have thought or said that a few years ago eh?

Well, me actually.
[/quote]

Ballicks....it's not yet time to be saying "I was right all along"...not yet.

He has had scattered good performances this season. Notably, Chelsea - home and away. For every Chelsea game there has been a Newcastle game, where people wanted to take a hammer to the Tele. You are just milking a good performance by generously dishing out 'I told you so's.

Here is my criticism of Lucas, and it remains valid even today. He is not able to dictate the tempo or have a serious effect on the result of a game. When the team plays well, he tends to play well. He has never been able to stand up and be counted for other's short-comings. Which is very crucial in a team sport. Xabi Alonso proved he was an expert at that, Steven Gerrard has given 10 years of that, Hamman did it, and even the much maligned Mascherano has done it - but i haven't seen that from Lucas.

He is like Fletcher without the consistency. A cog in the wheel player, and if he adds consistency to his game he can be a useful and valuable squad member, just like Fletcher is at United. This is hardly something to crow about. Considering how much he has improved physically and technically, the rest of the forum had every right to criticise him "two years" back. Because if he is not all that now, he probably was shite back then.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=44105.msg1281543#msg1281543 date=1297159174]
So you can shove the "i told you so" up your arse...
[/quote]

Bit unnecessary that thanks Julian

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=44105.msg1281546#msg1281546 date=1297159322]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=44105.msg1281543#msg1281543 date=1297159174]
So you can shove the "i told you so" up your arse...
[/quote]

Bit unnecessary that thanks Julian
[/quote]

Noted. Apologies Ryan, forum.

 

[Pesam]

[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=44105.msg1281548#msg1281548 date=1297159401]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=44105.msg1281546#msg1281546 date=1297159322]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=44105.msg1281543#msg1281543 date=1297159174]
So you can shove the "i told you so" up your arse...
[/quote]

Bit unnecessary that thanks Julian
[/quote]

Noted. Apologies Ryan, forum.
[/quote]

But the tenet of your post was right.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=Pasim link=topic=44105.msg1281553#msg1281553 date=1297159591]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=44105.msg1281548#msg1281548 date=1297159401]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=44105.msg1281546#msg1281546 date=1297159322]
[quote author=kingjulian link=topic=44105.msg1281543#msg1281543 date=1297159174]
So you can shove the "i told you so" up your arse...
[/quote]

Bit unnecessary that thanks Julian
[/quote]

Noted. Apologies Ryan, forum.
[/quote]

But the tenet of your post was right.
[/quote]

Yes some fair points are made.

 

[doctor_mac]

Every player is a cog in the wheel, and given the disciplined role asked of this cog, he is never going to influence the game when we are playing badly in the way SG rescues us with a wonder goal. In terms of dictating the play, I think he is capable of exactly that. He was the metronome against Stoke keeping everyone moving and distributing the ball quickly and with purpose, and he was once again against Chelsea. Not only 'simple' passes, but ambitious accurate passes picking out forwards.

You suggest he is shite at least as often as he is good. For the last two seasons I'd strongly disagree with that. He has been a consistent performer, one of the most consistent in the team. He's not pulling up trees most of the time, but then again the team hasn't been either, and if the movement isn't good he isn't likely to shine. Is he a world class player, I don't think so, but he is certainly a useful player, who is more than earning a place in the team on current form.

 

[kingjulian]

[quote author=doctor_mac link=topic=44105.msg1281561#msg1281561 date=1297159780]
who is more than earning a place in the team on current form.
[/quote]

This i don't question. I said as much in the ratings thread. "He is holding on to his place on merit." Poulsen is not a better player than Lucas, Meireles is not as effective at doing the job, and putting Gerrard there creates further problems up-field. To be honest, in the last few games, Gerrard has played deeper and put in a real shift defensively. Right now, there is no challenger for his position. He is doing an adequate job as well.

But if i look at where we can improve our starting eleven, then his position in the starting eleven comes as one of the top priority, after the non-existent wingers problem.

I will have no problem with him occupying a spot in the bench and first inline to replace an injured player, but to say that he is anything more than that or that to assuredly say that he will become one is a not really right i think.

 

[Asbo]

[size=12pt]Lucas Leiva: From Purslow's list to Liverpool FC pass master[/size]
By Ben Thornley, Head of Sport Liverpool Daily Post
Feb 10 2011

SEVEN months ago his name featured prominently on Christian Purslow's cull list. Now it's among the first on Kenny Dalglish's team sheet.
The likes of Martin Kelly and Raul Merieles may have dominated the headlines as Dalglish has resuscitated Liverpool's season, but no other player is thriving under the Scot quite like Lucas Leiva.
If the bungling Roy Hodgson did one thing right in his disastrous six months in charge it was to ignore Purslow – who failed to grasp the difference between the remit of manager and managing director – when he sought to usher Lucas through the exit along with Rafa Benitez and a host of his signings.

The 24-year-old rewarded Hodgson with a series of fine displays, yet the return of Dalglish has inspired him to reach new heights.
Lucas is revelling in the Reds legend’s pass-and-move philosophy. Unsurprisingly, perhaps, given that it is as much the way of Brazil as it is Liverpool.
If Momo Sissoko was once described as the Reds’ “battery†by Benitez, then the former Gremio star is their pendulum, his rhythmic distribution dictating the tempo of Liverpool’s play – something he did to great effect in the 1-0 defeat of Chelsea.

Just as important, however, is his movement – the Brazilian always making himself available for a pass – relentless pressing and defensive grit.
If an indicator of his performance at Stamford Bridge was needed, then Lucas’ Opta Index stats provide it.
Against Carlo Ancelotti’s men, he completed 89% of attempted passes, 82% in Chelsea’s half.
They are figures impressive enough before you consider the calibre of midfield opposition and the high intensity of the game.
It’s been a similar story in each of his outings under Dalglish, although his pass completion rate for the entire campaign – 84% – is of an equally high calibre.
Indeed, the consensus at Anfield is that Lucas has been Liverpool’s most consistent outfield player of the last 12 to 18 months.
No statistic can accurately measure his greatest quality, however – his character, demonstrated best when overcoming the Anfield boo boys and the criticism of the press during his early days at Liverpool while he was adapting to a new country, league and position.
Indeed, many unkind words about the midfielder were typed by these hands and for that this observer is both embarrassed and apologetic.
Perhaps there are still weaknesses in Lucas' game – the occasional lapse in concentration and shortage of goals.

But for too long have people focused on what he is not rather than what he is, with the likeable Brazilian unfairly judged by the standards of Xabi Alonso and Javier Mascherano, two players arguably the finest in their position in European football.
However, anyone who has seen the footage of Lucas' career in Brazil – when he became the youngest ever winner of the Bola de Ouro – will suspect there is still more to come from the £6m signing.
Just as anyone who remembers Dalglish’s first spell in charge at Anfield knows this sequence of four successive victories is merely a taste of the future under King Kenny.
A future Lucas will undoubtedly play a key role in.