maxi

[Ryan]

Yeah, well it depends on the tactics you're gonna go for I suppose. If your'e going to be a counter-attacking side like the current United one or the Chelsea 04/05 one then you absolutely have to have fast wingers.

By contrast, the current Man City side prefers to attack through continuous ball retention, looking to get players into holes, and neat short passes. Typically Italian through Mancini I suppose. There's no amazing pace in their side, but with Tevez, Aguero, Nasri, and Silva they've got players who can find space and open up a defence.

Spurs and Arsenal have gone for a bit of both worlds; through Walcott they can attack quickly, then they've got the Rosicky's, RVP's, Benayoun's - who want to get in between the defence and the midfield. Spurs are the same - attack at pace through Bale and Lennon, if that doesn't work then you've got Modric, Kranjcar and VDV who can go the other way. Their issue is that their squad just isn't big enough.

I like the idea of having both options. Away from home you absolutely 100% have to be able to counter at pace. Teams will come at you more and there'll be more open space. Being a counter-attacking side at home is pointless, cos teams come to Anfield and park the fucking bus. Which is why the City approach of having quality players who can find space in tight situations is imperative. Look at City's home record - amazing.

Just to add to this point above. It kinda highlights to me - again - how utterly fucking ridiculous the signing of Carroll was. He doesn't fit into either of those styles of play. Or any real style of play that a top side should be aspiring to be playing.

It was a monumentally bad bit of business. But anyway, Maxi.

 

[ILD]

Ah perhaps.

 

[keniget]

There isn't too much to disagree with what Ryan is saying but tactics aside, the problem we often face is that the likes of Downing are often too conservative and safe. They're quite happy to play passes outside the box or cross it in from deep but you don't see enough of them trying to force the issue like Bellamy does or show intelligent movement or gamble on a ball arriving in the penalty area like Maxi or Kuyt do.

As someone else said, it's all too static. We haven't often played counter-attacking football and when you're trying to win games by playing possession football and too few of your players are looking to find or create space in a compressed defence you're pretty much fucked.

 

[Ryan]

There isn't too much to disagree with what Ryan is saying but tactics aside, the problem we often face is that the likes of Downing are often too conservative and safe. They're quite happy to play passes outside the box or cross it in from deep but you don't see enough of them trying to force the issue like Bellamy does or show intelligent movement...

It's cos they can't Ken, cos because they aren't good enough.

It's all fair and well saying 'get into the positions Silva does' but few can. You can't teach someone like Downing or Adam to be more intelligent.

You just don't buy them in the first place.

 

[ILD]

^^^^^
That was in reply to your reply to my post.

I haven't been posting in a while. I'm rusty.

 

[Y1]

So Carroll is good enough only for teams who play long balls and set pieces like Stokes, Bolton and the Watford of old?

 

[ILD]

I shocked you didn't rate Raul higher Ryan. He was constantly on the move. We miss that.

 

[keniget]

Of course I know they're not good enough at the end of the day but as you and others have pointed out earlier in the season it's not just down to that. It's down to simple cowardice and laziness. The ball is often treated like a hot potato outside the box - players can't wait to lay it off to someone else and just stand there like a fucking lump. You don't have to be an intelligent trequartista to do something about that. You can start by running.

As Guardiola said the other day "In order to win we have to run more and when the good times come, smile. What I don’t want is for my players to focus on things they shouldn’t. I want these players to have a good time, smile - but in order to win we have to run".

If players like Messi, Xavi and Iniesta start off with the basic premise of running, it seems almost absurd that lesser players like Downing are happy to just stand there on the wing.

 

[Ryan]

So Carroll is good enough only for teams who play long balls and set pieces like Stokes, Bolton and the Watford of old?

Yes.

 

[Ryan]

I shocked you didn't rate Raul higher Ryan. He was constantly on the move. We miss that.

Didn't hate him at all Dave. My argument - even when he was at his best - was that he was never truly top class. Not a fucking major issue, and given the disgrace of some of our play this season, that sort of quality would be a blessing. But that's more of a reflection of the shit we bought, than Meireles ability.

Good player, good touch, GREAT movement, but for me he was a bit of a luxury. Luxury players are fine, but they have to be amazing. He wasn't.

 

[Ryan]

Of course I know they're not good enough at the end of the day but as you and others have pointed out earlier in the season it's not just down to that. It's down to simple cowardice and laziness. The ball is often treated like a hot potato outside the box - players can't wait to lay it off to someone else and just stand there like a fucking lump. You don't have to be an intelligent trequartista to do something about that. You can start by running.

As Guardiola said the other day "In order to win we have to run more and when the good times come, smile. What I don’t want is for my players to focus on things they shouldn’t. I want these players to have a good time, smile - but in order to win we have to run".

If players like Messi, Xavi and Iniesta start off with the basic premise of running, it seems almost absurd that lesser players like Downing are happy to just stand there on the wing.

Ah yep, sorry I see your point now.

Yes, 100% agree. Downing's performance at Old Trafford when he actively didn't want the ball stands out. Fucking pathetic.

 

[Y1]

Yes.

I think all we can get for him is 10m max. No point in selling then, keep him as a squad player for an option in games we cannot break down a the park the bus type of defence, playing him the last 15 minutes for set pieces and long balls.

 

[Ryan]

So Carroll is good enough only for teams who play long balls and set pieces like Stokes, Bolton and the Watford of old?

Just to elaborate further on this; he wouldn't even work in this year's Newcastle team. They're a far better footballing team this year than last.

 

[spider-Neil]

Yes.

carroll has shown he has ability with the ball at his feet, if his team mates chose to punt the ball up to him that's their fault, not his.

we gave one of our best footballing performances last year v man city and carroll was at the heart of it. saying a target man belongs to a long ball team is tired cliché. the team dictates the style of play not the striker.

 

[spider-Neil]

to go further with my point, carroll has shown good awareness of his team mates, the ability to lay the ball off with one touch and the ability to drag defenders out of position. when you take these qualities into consideration the team would be better off sticking as close to him as possible, buzzing around him and making quick interchances with him and using him as a decoy. also he is going to win everything in the box and we have the types of players that will murder the second ball (gerrard, maxi, suarez).

we would cash in by pushing as far up the pitch as possible and supporting him with 3 or 4 players rather than 1 or 2 playing 20 yards behind him, it's pointless waiting for him to hold up the ball while support arrives. again, if we chose to defend deep meaning he has to drop deep to collect the ball (pushing him out of the opposition penalty box), if we sit off him so the opposition can stick a couple of defenders on him and sit off him so he has to make a 20 yard raking pass just to find a team mate that is OUR fault not his.

 

[Ryan]

I'm not having this argument with you. No fucking way.

 

[Modo]

I usually don't mention Carroll along with the other deadwood we bought this summer because I've secretly been hoping that he'll come good. A year and half later and it dawned on me that we bought a striker who basically needs to learn how to play upfront for £35 Million. That bothers me, a lot.

 

[Y1]

Just to elaborate further on this; he wouldn't even work in this year's Newcastle team. They're a far better footballing team this year than last.

Agreed. Newcastle is now playing too fast and furious for Carroll's style.

 

[Delinquent]

Ryan - yes I do see the point, but against Blackburn we did something different - we actually got forward in numbers into the final third. Our players have not been doing that this season, and for the first time they seemed to not give a shit and just attack even with 10 men. Perhaps they only do that when Maxi plays or something, I don't know - I just want us to win the FA Cup, see Man City win the title as opposed to Man United, Chelsea to come 5th and not fluke to win the CL (so Torres ends up with nothing) and this shitty season to end - is that too much to ask ?

I'm not sure whether the tactics were changed, but I think the change of personnel was more significant. Quite simply, we had two wide players in Maxi and Bellamy who were prepared to get forward and support the attack. We haven't had that for much of the season because the wide positions have been filled by Henderson and Downing. I guarantee you that Downing would not have made the run Maxi did for our second, regardless of our tactics.

 

[spider-Neil]

if you are giving a striker chances and he is fluffing his lines then blame the striker, if you are giving the striker no (decent) service, playing 20 yards behind him and punting the ball up to him while he has two defenders hanging off his shoulders then blame the team. I'm exaggerating with the style of play because we are not a long ball team but no one is going to tell me we've supported carroll as well as we can. we many players do we commit to the attack? how many players are running into box when a pass in the final 3rd is played.

ryan wants to label carroll a clogger and that may be true (but I don't believe it is true) but it's how we use him that will ultimately dictate if he is truly a clogger or not.

 

[Modo]

I think Ryan mentioned somewhere else that we can't have it both ways in regards to using a playing style that suit's both Carroll and Suarez. I personally want us to play a high tempo pass and move football and I don't think Carroll suited for that.
Will he adapt to that playing style? Time will tell but I doubt it.

 

[spider-Neil]

I think Ryan mentioned somewhere else that we can't have it both ways in regards to using a playing style that suit's both Carroll and Suarez. I personally want us to play a high tempo pass and move football and I don't think Carroll suited for that.
Will he adapt to that playing style? Time will tell but I doubt it.

we should in no way shape or form be building the team around suarez, he simple doesn't score enough goals.
playing to owen's strengths made sense, playing to torres' strengths made sense but suarez is a number '7' (a creator rather than a finisher).
I'm not saying build the team around carroll but we certainly shouldn't be building the team around suarez.

 

[Modo]

we should in no way shape or form be building the team around suarez, he simple doesn't score enough goals.
playing to owen's strengths made sense, playing to torres' strengths made sense but suarez is a number '7' (a creator rather than a finisher).
I'm not saying build the team around carroll but we certainly shouldn't be building the team around suarez.

I agree, somewhat.
But Suarez way of playing is the way forward IMO. Maybe not a style to suit his him directly but maybe indirectly, that is if we get a decent finisher in the summer. Someone like Jovetic.

 

[doctor_mac]

Watching Maxi the other night was a lesson in finding space between the lines. He can be Silvaesque at times, and that knack of being in the right place at the right time isn't down to luck.

 

[spider-Neil]

often suarez is the furthest forwards and you have the likes of carroll and bellamy tucked in behind and that is frankly stupid.
suarez should be playing 'between the lines' where he can either play a killer ball or make a direct run to goal.
we're trying to do with suarez what we did to torres and it simply isn't going to work because he doesn't have the instincts of a natural goalscorer and I couldn't care less about his stats for ajax or international level, HERE it isn't working.
suarez looks like a 1 in 3 striker to me and should be played as such and we should be building the team around a 1 in 2 striker.

 

[spider-Neil]

I really rate suarez but I don't think we are using him in the manner that will benefit him or us.

 

[Ryan]

Watching Maxi the other night was a lesson in finding space between the lines. He can be Silvaesque at times, and that knack of being in the right place at the right time isn't down to luck.

Yup.

 

[Ryan]

often suarez is the furthest forwards and you have the likes of carroll and bellamy tucked in behind and that is frankly stupid.
suarez should be playing 'between the lines' where he can either play a killer ball or make a direct run to goal.
we're trying to do with suarez what we did to torres and it simply isn't going to work because he doesn't have the instincts of a natural goalscorer and I couldn't care less about his stats for ajax or international level, HERE it isn't working.
suarez looks like a 1 in 3 striker to me and should be played as such and we should be building the team around a 1 in 2 striker.

Suarez's problems are;

The players he's playing with.
The tactics he's playing under.

 

[spider-Neil]

Yup.

definately agree, only kenny knows why maxi hasn't played more this season. there will be plenty of games for him next season though.

 

[Ryan]

definately agree, only kenny knows why maxi hasn't played more this season. there will be plenty of games for him next season though.

It's because he spent a fortune on tubes and then had to justify it by playing them and hope they would come good.