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Middle East Violence (content may offend)

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Atlas said:
That's just not what I said at all.

Hamas murdered innocent civilians on oct 7th, it was evil, horrific and a war crime.

Anyone directly or indirectly involved with those crimes should stand trial.

I maintain I took issue with the purported lies of beheaded babies and babies hanging on clothes lines it didnt happen.

What did happen was parents murdered in front of their children, I couldn't begin to imagine that horror. Its horrific and those who committed those crimes should face trial.. or just burn.
I read a story of children blown to bits with a grenade, it was evil personified.

The stories of sexual abuse also, stories of women abused before being murdered.
May those who perpetrated that crime be forever condemned and punished in this life and the next.

You can look at the treatment of Palestinians by Israelis and says its horrible and that those who committed Oct 7th took it too far and deserved to be caught and held accountable.

You can also say Israel had an absolute unequivocal right to go after those same people and get back the hostages.
Once Israel started shooting white flag waving old ladies, bombing hospitals, leaving premature babies for dead, politicians calling for genocide, politicians calling for ethnic cleansing, blowing up palestinan buildings for yojmur wifes birthday, set dogs upon a guy witg down syndrome kill 20k kids then you have to unequivocally condemn it.
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While I wish you'd said this of your own accord rather than having to be challenged first, I thank you for the clarity of what you say above about Oct.7th and repeat that I condemn the Israeli government's settlement policy and the effects it's been having on what's happening in Gaza. I've said elsewhere that both sides have to abandon absolutist versions of their respective agendas and I stand by that.
 
Judge Jules said:
The bias is apparent in the way that criticism has been aimed solely at Israel throughout, since well before the war on Hamas started. Oct.7 is one example, with no mention being made of it unless those of us who disagree with the prevailing view here raised the matter. Another is the way Israel was continually criticised for firing on Gaza while not a single word was ever said about the rockets fired from there at Israel daily until the IDF went in after Oct.7.

My own view is that anti-semitism isn't the main driver behind this approach. I see it rather as a mixture of understandable and, yes, justified horror at the headlines and videos (for info I'm Catholic and have met the priest in charge of the Catholic church - the only one in Gaza - which was recently hit) and groupthink on this forum. I'm quite sure you're no anti-semite.
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I definitely think people are more critical of Israel, yes. But, I think there are reasons for that, and I don't think it's bias. Reasons being, our governments aren't supporting Hamas, they are financially and politically supporting Israel, so we can and should care about where our tax money is going. Israel is the dominant power, it's not an equal relationship, it's normal to feel more empathy for empoverished and hold the larger power to a higher level of accountability. Also, I don't think there is any real debate(at least on here), about Hamas, there's no one to convince about them, everyone agrees, hence it won't be talked about as much.

I also think I'm biased against Russia in the Ukraine war, if that helps, but I also try to understand their reasoning for doing what they're doing. Maybe it's down to me being from a country that was in, what I consider, a similar situation to Palestinians, at one point.
 
I don't think both siding the current situation goes anyway near far enough to describe the evil of what the Israelis are doing in Gaza.
I have mentioned what I posted before, it's not new and I didn't need coaxing. I clarified.

You mentioned a few times you have held back because others/I didn't go far enough, I clarified and well you clarified where you are at with the genocide of Gazans. I wonder if you had a word about Israel and the trauma they have inflicted on the Catholics in Gaza when you spoke to the priest. I wonder if he was biased against the Jews.

I think it's insidious to suggest there is groupthink to have a bias against Israel.
And probably worse to suggest antisemitism is at the heart of wanted Israel to stop murdering children.

I don't ever want to come across as a cunt and so pls forgive me if you think I have but like I said genocide has to be a red line. I'm just surprised and shocked those who have heard stories and tales of the genocide their elders went through are not unequivocal in their condemnation.
 
BBC news are fucking cunts. Not just the Middle East but to UK politics too. There’s so much poverty on their hands.
 
Hamas sure should surrender this is absolutely unbelievable they are still fighting.
Probably raping Jewish girls is more important than your siblings having no food.
 
TorresElNino9 said:
Hamas sure should surrender this is absolutely unbelievable they are still fighting.
Probably raping Jewish girls is more important than your siblings having no food.
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Im guessing this was a proportionate response rape? Hamas fault too I'm sure.

www.aljazeera.com

‘Everything is legitimate’: Israeli leaders defend soldiers accused of rape

Israeli society is divided over arrest of 10 soldiers for brutal gang rape of a Palestinian prisoner caught on video.
www.aljazeera.com www.aljazeera.com
 
Why don't the stupid bastards just give up their fight for freedom, aren't they sick of being starved, impoverished, beaten, raped and killed all the time. They just need a proper education and to become civilized like the IDF.
 
Gerry_A_Trick said:
Why don't the stupid bastards just give up their fight for freedom, aren't they sick of being starved, impoverished, beaten, raped and killed all the time. They just need a proper education and to become civilized like the IDF.
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They can try again when they remove the beheaders and rapers of civilians.
The freedom fighters that go in a music festival and slaughter hundreds.
The brave men that throw grenades into a bomb shelter filled with 20yo kids.

Comparing this to everything that happened in the past during this conflict is a joke.
 
TorresElNino9 said:
They can try again when they remove the beheaders and rapers of civilians.
The freedom fighters that go in a music festival and slaughter hundreds.
The brave men that throw grenades into a bomb shelter filled with 20yo kids.

Comparing this to everything that happened in the past during this conflict is a joke.
Click to expand...

Let’s take this apart slowly.


You’re absolutely right to condemn the murder of civilians at a music festival. It was horrifying. No decent person excuses or celebrates that.


But here’s the problem:
You show immense moral clarity when civilians you identify with are attacked — and absolutely none when civilians you don’t are bombed, starved, or shot in broad daylight. That’s not moral consistency. That’s tribalism dressed up as righteousness.


Let me try your logic on the other side:
“They can try again when they remove the IDF snipers who shoot medics, the air force that flattens hospitals and schools, and the soldiers who film themselves cheering over corpses. When they stop bombing aid convoys. When they stop using white phosphorus in dense cities.”


Do you see the problem yet?


You want atrocities committed by Hamas to justify collective punishment, mass civilian death, starvation, and siege.
But atrocities committed by the IDF somehow don't invalidate your argument. You keep talking about grenades in bomb shelters — but not about the children pulled from rubble night after night.


The hypocrisy is staggering. And exhausting.


This isn’t a competition over who can be more barbaric.
It’s a plea for basic consistency: if murdering civilians is evil — it’s evil regardless of who does it.
 
The difference is that one is being done in retaliation, and the other is unprovoked.
Basic morality dictates 'Eye for an Eye'.
Staggering that I even have to write this shit down.
 
TorresElNino9 said:
The difference is that one is being done in retaliation, and the other is unprovoked.
Basic morality dictates 'Eye for an Eye'
Click to expand...


Come on, man.
You’re not stupid and you’re not uninformed — so it’s hard to believe you honestly think this all started unprovoked. That’s not a difference in opinion, that’s a denial of reality.


You talk about retaliation like it's a moral shield. But what are they retaliating against? Decades of siege, occupation, checkpoints, displacement, daily humiliation — all invisible to you because the people living it don’t look like you?


It’s not about justifying attacks on civilians — it’s about refusing to pretend one side is noble and the other barbaric when both have blood on their hands. And when one has fighter jets, tanks, and nukes — and the other is locked in a cage.


Let’s not confuse vengeance with justice.
And let’s not insult everyone’s intelligence by calling this one-sided horror show “unprovoked”.
 
Oh wait, sorry, I forgot...


All the problems stem from the death cult religion of islam which must be eradicated for good people to have any chance of not murdering kids.
 
I’m up for debate on subject but blatant Islamophobia and/or being a deliberate wind up merchant has no place on here.
 
MomoWASright said:
I’m up for debate on subject but blatant Islamophobia and/or being a deliberate wind up merchant has no place on here.
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He is a mirror to those that share similar thoughts but try to couch them.

Let his real thoughts be seen and recorded, that's my current position.
 
Judge Jules said:
While I wish you'd said this of your own accord rather than having to be challenged first, I thank you for the clarity of what you say above about Oct.7th and repeat that I condemn the Israeli government's settlement policy and the effects it's been having on what's happening in Gaza. I've said elsewhere that both sides have to abandon absolutist versions of their respective agendas and I stand by that.
Click to expand...


Hey JJ — I want to take a moment to engage sincerely, because I used to respect the consistency of your moral compass, especially when it comes to issues of justice, human dignity, and the value of life.


But I’ve been reading back through your posts on Israel-Palestine over the years, and I’m honestly struggling to reconcile your clear commitment to Christian principles with your current stance on this conflict. For example, in past threads you’ve condemned violence unequivocally — whether from Hamas or the Israeli military — and you've consistently spoken out against injustice, even when it's politically complicated. That moral clarity was something I really admired.


Lately though, there’s a shift. In this thread and others, your focus seems to rest disproportionately on Israel’s right to defend itself, or the strategic choices of Hamas — often without comparable scrutiny of Israel's choices or its overwhelming military power. You've rightly criticised acts of terror, but have appeared less willing to hold Israel accountable for things like:

  • Repeated bombing of UN shelters and hospitals
  • Documented killings of medics and journalists
  • The scale of displacement (1.9+ million people in Gaza)
  • Systemic blockade policies upheld for nearly two decades
  • Flagrant disregard of international rulings and UN resolutions

None of this justifies Hamas’ actions — but surely these facts must be part of any honest moral reckoning.


I’m not asking you to pick a side. I’m asking whether you feel your current framing — one that often leans into justifications or silence on Israeli actions — is still aligned with the ethical standard you've held to in other contexts. Especially as a Christian, whose faith tradition calls for the defence of the oppressed and the pursuit of peace rooted in truth.


I hope you read this in the tone intended — not accusatory, but as a challenge from someone who’s always appreciated your voice of reason. I still believe you're trying to be fair. But I also believe fairness demands more than balance — it demands courage to speak plainly, even when it’s uncomfortable.
 
Over the years, I’ve had countless discussions here where I — and others — were challenged, sometimes relentlessly, to first condemn terrorism, extremism, or specific atrocities before we were even allowed to offer context or speak to broader systemic issues.

And we did. Unequivocally. Repeatedly. There was never support for the killing of civilians, or for any group that targeted innocents. That was a shared line in the sand — or at least, it seemed to be.

But what’s been difficult to witness this past year is how some of those same voices — who once demanded moral clarity from everyone else — now seem to default to whataboutism, deflection, or silence when the violence and atrocities are coming from a side they’re more aligned with.

I’m not trying to be combative or score points. I just want to explain what’s been gnawing at me.

It’s not that people hold different views — it’s that the standard has changed. The same people who once insisted there could be no “moral equivalence” now seem strangely comfortable drawing moral fog. The clarity they demanded from others has been replaced with caveats and context — but only now that it’s “their” side in the spotlight.

And I get that it’s more complicated for some. That there are personal ties, histories, traumas that colour how this conflict is seen. I don’t think that makes anyone evil or beyond reason. I really don’t.

But I do think it's worth saying this: when we abandon the principles we once insisted on — when we justify, minimise, or deflect the same horrors we used to condemn — we lose something vital. Not just moral consistency, but credibility. And trust.

That’s what I’ve been struggling with. Not just what’s happening “over there” — but what it’s revealing in us.
 
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