• You may have to login or register before you can post and view our exclusive members only forums.
    To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Patience

Forums Unread posts
rurikbird

rurikbird

Part of the Furniture
Honorary Member
Now that we’ve hit our first little snag of the season (I’m sure it won’t be the last), it’s tempting to make definitive judgements on new signings. I think the best criteria of whether a player will succeed or not is not whether they have hit the ground running, but rather the underlying attributes that led to the signing in the first place.

Take Chelsea’s Caicedo. We all thought he was great at Brighton and felt quite positive about it when it looked like we’ve won the race. Then he went to Chelsea, endured a very uncertain start, which people maybe don’t expect for “Premier league proven” players, so some tried to cast him as a flop. Now he’s widely considered one of the best midfielders in the league. Or take Peter Crouch who famously couldn’t score in his first 18 or 19 games for us, but went on to be regarded as a success and one of the key players of the Benitez era.

So hitting the ground running or not can be deceiving and Premier league proven players can struggle in a new team too. Instead, let’s look at underlying qualities of each of the new signings to try to predict if they will ultimately come good:

=============
Kerkez - the qualities we saw at Bournemouth were speed, energy, good crossing, tenaciousness in duels. At Liverpool we also see rashness and inexplicable defensive mistakes and so far very little attacking output. Verdict: Kerkez will come good because his underlying qualities are solid and problems look mostly temporary/solvable.

Frimpong - in contrast to Kerkez, it seems like he was used in a highly specialized way at his previous club, whereas we need a more all-around RB. Unless he dramatically improves several aspects of his game, he won’t be a starter.

Wirtz - it’s tempting to say he was great for Bayer, so of course he will come good sooner rather than later. I think it’s a bit more complicated than that. It’s not like Wirtz is not already showing all the technical qualities that made everyone want him - he still glides past players, first touch is great and his workrate cannot be faulted. He is not playing badly - so why then is he not effective? For me the short answer lies in the nature of the Premier League football - there is a certain type of attacking player that is more likely to succeed here and for other types they have to be really, really damn good to make it. I think Wirtz can succeed because he’s not a finished article and has talent and drive to improve - but he will need to become a better version of himself to make it as a #10 in the EPL. The Leverkusen Wirtz, if he doesn’t progress beyond that level, won’t cut it, so I guess the verdict on him is that jury’s still out.
=============

I don’t have time today to write about Isak and Ekitike, maybe someone else wants to pick up the mantle?
 
It's bad that we're 6 games in and where's a thread about giving half our signings time.
 
Szoboszlai looked that part when he started then faded after the second international break due to injury. Then he was rubbish when returned. Started his second season rubbish and gradually improved as the season went on.

Gravenberch arrived the same as Isak, unfit due to being frozen out, never got a proper position nor a run of games and also picked up injuries. Only when the Zubimendi deal failed he got into the side and showed his worth.

Looking at this summers window. There seems to be a bit of us being like a kid in sweet shop. We were buying from a position of strength and there’s only one ready made player we signed and he arrived clearly unfit. There is that lack of a real strategy and we bought several projects. As @rurikbird points out, the players we have all have some areas of improvement to make. Namely the two full backs who probably should sit behind the full backs who were already here.

Let’s move on to Isak and Ekitike. I’m more flummoxed about this with every passing game. They clearly have different styles but also some similar attributes. Tall lads. Pace, trickery and can score all types of goals. However, they occupy the same area of the pitch. Did we really need both? Or should we have had someone completely different in the same Nunez and Jota were completely different. In terms of attributes not shitness/injuries.

Ekitike - he has shown he’s worth the money. Let’s not have his moment of madness cloud that. He’s an absolute baller. We will work with him we will have a monster on our hands.

Isak - clearly not fit and we had our hand forced on us by the midweek red card. He shouldn’t be near the squad right now. We have already seen this season we will get even more games where we are against two banks of four. Did he show his worth against such formations? I don’t remember many Newcastle games so I don’t know. Can he work in those tight spaces? Most of the goals he scored seemed to be into space.

Wirtz - big money, big reputation and big expectations. He clearly has ability but not in any way can he do that the way we play. Yesterday and Burnley should’ve been games he makes the difference. Getting through the press, deft touches and bringing others in. He could come good, but the Premier League is a different beast. The pace and intensity of it can be too much for lots of players. Maybe we need to be more dramatic with our formation and style but that would mean Salah being dropped. That’s never going to happen. It’s not a good sign that on two occasions we have taken him from what I expect to be his best position to playing left wing.

Kerkez - I think we could have the next Robertson. Him and Ekitike came here with a lack of playing at the very top and Kerkez needs to adjust to that. He has nobody better to learn from than Robbo and van Dijk. The fee is looking hefty right now because we have bought lots of potential rather than what he offers. He has those physical attributes to play here which separates him somewhat from the Wirtz point of view. He hasn’t been helped by that gorm who has been playing left wing.

Frimpong - he’s been hampered with getting an injury early doors and he looked decent in the community shield but crap since. It’s going to be horses for courses with him. Can he use his pace on the overlap to pull full backs out of position? I didn’t realise how small he actually is which is worrying.
 
Fabio said:
It's bad that we're 6 games in and where's a thread about giving half our signings time.
Click to expand...
Is that in terms of us having to manage our expectations or because they all seem to be rubbish? Apart from Tekkers.
 
Fabio said:
It's bad that we're 6 games in and where's a thread about giving half our signings time.
Click to expand...

Feels about right to me. Would be a worry if it was 26 games.

Worth noting / remembering Isak joined unfit / unplayed and Frim & Bradders both already had injuries.
 
We were ALWAYS going to start this season like a work in progress, because with so many new signings that's exactly what we were going to be. IMO it's actually a bonus that we're top of the league - I for one wasn't expecting that before the season started.

The only new signing I'm concerned about is Frimpong, not because he doesn't have ability but because I'm starting to wonder what his part in the new system actually is. He seems more like a general "take care of the right-hand side" option than either a RB or a RM/RW.
 
I don't think Frimpong is good enough for us. You can see why he flourished as a wing back, because all he can really do is run. At least it gives Bradley a season to prove himself and his fitness. If he doesn't then we'll have to buy again next summer.

Kerkez will probably be alright in the end.

Wirtz we just have to keep playing in his favoured position and hope to god he clicks with his teammates. We're really in a huge mess if he doesn't because we'll have to sell him to Bayern for about half the money.
 
I do think we're more of a 4-3-3 team than anything.

One of Klopp's masterstrokes was stringing 3 midfielders fairly flat across the midfield, which ultimately gave us adequate protection and let the front 3 do their thing.

Look at our wide attackers now - Salah, Chisa, Gakpo and Ekitike (if he played wide) are all wide forwards rather than wingers.

Our 4-2-3-1 leaves us a little bit more exposed and less able to control games, because we're effectively playing 2 proper cm's instead of 3.

A 4-3-3 would allow our forwards to be proper wide forwards while still having the midfield numbers necessary.

Thing is . . . . Wirtz doesnt really fit into a 4-3-3. Unless he's converted and given an Iniesta type role from a midfield 3.
 
what’s leverkusen’s refund policy?

seriously though, i’m just hoping this is the ship steering towards an XI playing the way slot wants with players the data & recruitment guys approve of. it’s not pretty but we’ll eventually get back to full speed.

still that nagging concern exists that slots last season was largely due to klopps previous 9
 
Fabio said:
It's bad that we're 6 games in and where's a thread about giving half our signings time.
Click to expand...
When often we need to give players up to a season to gel it's a bit knee jerk to have people suggest formation changes, dropping them and refunds !

There is so much adjustment required for most : new country, new league, new team and tactics, new home, food, language and even driving on the opposite side of the road ! Plus being at a much larger club & support and being constantly under the microscope for every single thing you do. Pressure - in every aspect of your life.

I've mentioned before that my company in Shanghai was for expatriate relocations. The adjustment period (obviously China requires a far more severe adjustment than Liverpool), varies and is difficult. However the premise is the same - not everyone adjusts at the same speed and for some it's difficult. That goes for on and off the pitch. And then there is the Diogo factor (is this affecting the regulars more, even if only sub-consciously)?

All of the new players are still showing the positive technical side of their game however it's integration and tactics that are suspect. That effect is multiplied when the team regulars are playing utter shite : Salah, Macca, Konate, Jones and Gakpo. I'm sure if those players were showing good form then that would help the newbies integrate far better and easier. As it is it's multiplying the difficulty and that's not all on Slot.

I still feel that we have recruited high quality talent and that it is only a matter of time before we reap the benefits, in the meantime we just need to keep on muddling through (and we are doing that based on the high quality of individuals in isolated moments) until such time as it all comes together.
 
Markeh said:
i can remember you arguing with me that hendo would settle no bother in saudi!?
Click to expand...
Errr I think you're getting mixed up there !

Frogfish

Post in thread 'Sal-ittihad'

As someone who dealt with expatriate families (in HK and Shanghai) for over 20 years and has been expat (and so mixed with many other expat families/individuals) for nearly 45 years, Henderson, if the rumours are true of course, (and his family too) is a very clear case of adherence to the typical expat cycle (the effects of which can be exacerbated by the degree of variance in culture shock to your home culture). I'll just put a chart or two below.

Basically he (and his family) need careful management (with a specialist expat family psychologist) and any knowledgeable, caring and...
  • Like

Frogfish

Post in thread 'Henderson Leaves Al Ettifaq by mutual consent'

Frogfish said:
As someone who dealt with expatriate families (in HK and Shanghai) for over 20 years and has been expat (and so mixed with many other expat families/individuals) for nearly 45 years, Henderson, if the rumours are true of course, (and his family too) is a very clear case of adherence to the typical expat cycle (the effects of which can be exacerbated by the degree of variance in culture shock to your home culture). I'll just put a chart or two below.

Basically he (and his family) need careful management (with a specialist expat family psychologist) and any knowledgeable, caring and...
Click to expand...
  • Like
 
I think we have all had our expectations raised beyond reality, and our brilliant “never die” mentality combined with some very good attackers has made this happen.

I’m going to lower my expectations because it does take a while to bed in new players. And especially when the mainstays like Salah, Macca, Konate, Jones and Gakpo are just playing badly as well.

It’s possible we are going to go in a negative run, this team doesn’t know each other well. I think we need to be prepared for that as slot and the players figures things out.

If so Let’s try to allow for the adjustment without throwing the toys out of the Pram. Every week.
 
Markeh said:
Post in thread 'Hendo'n his way out'
https://www.sixcrazyminutes.com/threads/hendon-his-way-out.197609/post-2233389

Post in thread 'Hendo'n his way out'
https://www.sixcrazyminutes.com/threads/hendon-his-way-out.197609/post-2233403

there’s ten minutes i’m never getting back
Click to expand...
Oh that's a very poor take on my comments. Very poor. I said MOST expats deal with those issues (not that they absolutely would) and in the second post I didn't say anything about Hendo only that you said 'it's a big ask' and I said not really.

The two links I gave explain why it may have failed. On his family/wife.
 
Frogfish said:
When often we need to give players up to a season to gel it's a bit knee jerk to have people suggest formation changes, dropping them and refunds !

There is so much adjustment required for most : new country, new league, new team and tactics, new home, food, language and even driving on the opposite side of the road ! Plus being at a much larger club & support and being constantly under the microscope for every single thing you do. Pressure - in every aspect of your life.

I've mentioned before that my company in Shanghai was for expatriate relocations. The adjustment period (obviously China requires a far more severe adjustment than Liverpool), varies and is difficult. However the premise is the same - not everyone adjusts at the same speed and for some it's difficult. That goes for on and off the pitch. And then there is the Diogo factor (is this affecting the regulars more, even if only sub-consciously)?

All of the new players are still showing the positive technical side of their game however it's integration and tactics that are suspect. That effect is multiplied when the team regulars are playing utter shite : Salah, Macca, Konate, Jones and Gakpo. I'm sure if those players were showing good form then that would help the newbies integrate far better and easier. As it is it's multiplying the difficulty and that's not all on Slot.

I still feel that we have recruited high quality talent and that it is only a matter of time before we reap the benefits, in the meantime we just need to keep on muddling through (and we are doing that based on the high quality of individuals in isolated moments) until such time as it all comes together.
Click to expand...
Hmmm

If you were relocating two people from the same profession (bankers, lawyers etc) and one of them was paid about twice as much as the other, would that higher salary always mean a faster adjustment?

Just wondering as I would 100% assume that, as Wirtz was expensive, he should absolutely hit the ground running.

Confused Threes Company GIF by MOODMAN
 
I don’t know the impact on it. German’s speak excellent English. They can buy crazy shit from Aldi and Lidl. They can have German TV and all that jazz. They live in a bubble and have people help them do everything.
 
Frogfish said:
Oh that's a very poor take on my comments. Very poor. I said MOST expats deal with those issues (not that they absolutely would) and in the second post I didn't say anything about Hendo only that you said 'it's a big ask' and I said not really.

The two links I gave explain why it may have failed. On his family/wife.
Click to expand...
my take is poor? 😂
 
I so wanted us to miss out on Isak this summer and buy Rodrygo instead, I just dom't rate Isak as highly as most of you seem too, and with losing Diaz (whom I rate better than Gakpo) Rodrygo would have been a much better buy and player, cheapier too

Gakpo,... should have sold him and kept Diaz. Really does nothing from the left, can't take on players down the line and should he get psace he is always looking to shoot intsead of playing someone in unlike both Federico and Rio
 
This is true but also a real problem. We had a he's-not-as-good-as-mane problem with Diaz, and as such were probably the only fans in world football to not realise that while that was true he was better than pretty much everyone else. We didn't even try to replace him but we bought a number 10 who doesn't fit in anywhere so we tried him on the left yesterday for some reason. It all looks very ill thought through, and for what it's worth I'd blame the spreadsheets lads for that rather than Slot. What I will blame slot for is selection on the day. If you are dropping Gakpo then it's Chiesa or Rio. Square pegs don't fit in round holes.

I'm even more pissed off because I had very clear 2-1 defeat prediction in my head when the teams were announced before kick off but didn't put any money on it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Brizzle
    • Like
  • Locked
Pre Match Pre Match - Atletico Madrid (H) - CL - Wed 20:00
2 3
Replies
64
Views
2K
Modo
Modo
Brizzle
    • Like
  • Locked
Pre Match Pre Match - Burnley (A) - Sunday 14:00
2 3
Replies
65
Views
3K
tombrown
tombrown
Brizzle
    • Like
  • Locked
Pre Match Pre Match - Everton (H) - Sat 12:30
2 3
Replies
69
Views
3K
bluebell
bluebell
Brizzle
    • Like
  • Locked
Pre Match Pre Match - Arsenal (H) - Sun 16:30
2 3 4
Replies
99
Views
6K
Buddha
Buddha
binomial
Arne Snot
2 3
Replies
64
Views
2K
Number21
N
Back
Top Bottom