Signing young defenders

[Rosco]

It appears it's a total waste of money - for a club in our position anyway.

Because of the pressure of attempting to qualify for the Cl, we don't give young players much time in the first team defence unless we're forced to - Flanagan being the main one to benefit under Kenny.

So should we be attempting to sign young defenders at all?

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

It appears it's a total waste of money - for a club in our position anyway.

Because of the pressure of attempting to qualify for the Cl, we don't give young players much time in the first team defence unless we're forced to - Flanagan being the main one to benefit under Kenny.

So should we be attempting to sign young defenders at all?

Well, Moreno's 22 and has seen a lot of minutes. I think if we're sticking with the three at the back and looking for attacking wing backs to sprint up and down the sides, you'd want younger legs for that. These guys will usually come with the shortcoming that they're pushed too far up and left exposed at the back. This leaves room for one or two more defensive-minded alternates who can then come in when we need to turn more conservative and shut up shop (e.g. Flanagan, Manquillo).

I think we can see a bit of that in the last few league games with how Rodgers has been using Johnson, going with the attack-minded and faster youngsters for most of the game at LWB / RWB, and then introducing Johnson near the end to slow it down, sit back and protect the clean sheet.

 

[Rosco]

I don't consider Moreno young.

I'm thinking more of the defenders we sign who aren't first team ready. We can't develop them, we don't play them. They often turn out ok players but not for us

 

[hmmmmm1]

If we are expecting them to get into the team then they will struggle, see coates/Illori

 

[Mystic]

I don't consider Moreno young.

I'm thinking more of the defenders we sign who aren't first team ready. We can't develop them, we don't play them. They often turn out ok players but not for us

Yes, we should always go for established defenders, because as you say, we cant afford to bed promising defenders in, they'll get little time here, Illori is a prime example of that, as is Wisdom, Coates, Ayala and many more I can't remember.

 

[peterhague]

Generally agree. I was posting in the youth thread the other day about how I don't even bother hoping any of our young defenders make it, because they'd have to be insanely good to get a chance.

I was going to say in addition that they're not particularly expensive to sign ready made anyway, but I'm not sure that's as true as it was. They seem to be in shorter supply at the moment.

 

[Brizzle]

Danny Wilson is the one I thought was going to make the step up - it feels like years and years since he made his fleeting appearances and he's still only 23 so would still be considered young..

 

[gkmacca]

I agree. We should either show more faith or stop signing them and stalling their careers. Take Kevin Stewart: signed from Spurs, a right back who can also play on the left, but just drifting this year. And reserve games tend to be so soft these days the defenders develop far more slowly than the others, unless they get a chance out on loan. There was nothing wrong in buying Ilori, but the seemingly total lack of real interest in bringing him on like our young attacking players was exasperating.

 

[peterhague]

Ilori can't seem to stay fit. He even got injured last summer, when he should've been trying to impress during pre-season.

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

I think for wing backs / full backs we can buy and develop. The fact we haven't got any could just as much be due to the talent level of the guys in the first place. We'll just have to see.

For centre backs though, I'd agree that going with already developed players feels the more reasonable path to take, given the greater responsibilities and demands there.

As for Stewart - I kind of think he was just acquired as training fodder to beef up the squad or just Inglethorpe helping out an old student while also giving us an extra body to use in U21 games. Haven't been that impressed actually. I'd rather we gave the time to Randall.

 

[refugee]

As for Stewart - I kind of think he was just acquired as training fodder to beef up the squad

If that was true, then why did we loan him out?

or just Inglethorpe helping out an old student

If he was helping him out, then surely that is misuse of our funds. Even at a relatively low wage of 500 per week, that is still about £30,000 that could have been spent elsewhere.

Haven't been that impressed actually.

Ditto

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

Re: the loan - that was for a month only, at a time when the U21 calendar was pretty empty. It's a shit schedule that sees the games now coming once or twice a week I think, whereas it was pretty empty in January I believe.

I'm not trying to suggest that Inglethorpe's being self-serving here; as I said - it helps an ex-student, while also giving a warm body for the team, especially given McLaughlin's really spotty fitness. As it turns out, Stewart ended up playing two or three different spots with the injuries to McLaughlin and (later on) Rossiter.

I don't think every player we take in is with an eye towards turning them into someone for the first team - Paez, for example, is another one. I guess sometimes we just have to fill the squad with some training fodder because someone in a lower age group isn't ready to step up.

 

[keniget]

I agree in the most part, but I don't think our failure to develop young defenders is down to the pressures of qualifying for the CL and I think some of the issues we see at Liverpool are applicable to players in all positions.

The problem often comes when we buy players who are just entering their breakthrough period and bring them into a squad that has no place for them and no plan either seemingly.

In 10/11 we had Agger, Skrtel, Carra and Kyrgiakos as well as Kelly coming up from the reserves. Why pay 5M for Wilson and bring him to Liverpool knowing that he'll struggle to get a game even in the cups because we're so well stocked at the back. It's just negligent.

Buy players at that stage of their development by all means but either keep them at their current club or send them out on loan. Don't bring them to Liverpool to sit in the stands and / or play the odd reserve game. It's a huge waste of time and money not to mention talent.

 

[gkmacca]

To be fair we've never been particularly good at bringing through young defenders. In Shanks' day we had Smith, Lawler, Thommo and a few others. Paisley bought in his back four. Kenny gave a few a chance (most notably Ablett and Staunton) but again mainly went with players from elsewhere. The queue behind a settled back four has always been a long one compared to further up the field. But as Rodgers has often been frustrated at how long it's taken defenders to 'get' his system and philosophy, you would have thought he'd be exceptionally keen on having the kids trained in it whilst they are still eager to learn and very pliable, but it rarely looks like it in the ressies. Yes, they play out from the back but it's all very loose and slow-paced.

 

[mark1975]

Are we talking "younger" young defenders? Moreno is 22, Manquillo is 20. In his time here he's given a go to Flanno, Robinson, Wisdom and Coates. Sometimes it's like anything, they're either good enough, or not. Each one of those 5 defenders have been given a prolonged run to see if they are ready. Some of them weren't, so they went on loan or dropped down the pecking order. Markovic has had a fairly lengthy run at wing back too.

I think it's just the nature of defenders, we had a similar conversation when we signed Toure, it's just one of those positions where you always seem to end up needing an older head, at least occasionally, to organise things.

It's not hugely unusual for a top side to have centre backs who are somewhere between 25 and their 30's hogging the first team positions, it's a role that takes a long time to develop. Look at Carra, he didn't become a defender for years really and then was blooded from defensive midfield, to fullback to (eventually) centre back.

There's not that many young centre backs who come through and look made for the role from the off, and they usually end up being the really top drawer ones.

 

[Rosco]

I don't think any of those were given an opportunity out of anything other than necessity.

I suppose I'm really thinking of centre backs - and as Keni pointed out if there's not a plan on how to integrate the player it ends in failure.

Agger is probably the only player we've successful successfully done it with. We didn't play him much at the beginning but about 18 months later he was a regular at 24(?).

But when you look at the list of Paletta, Ayala, Mikel Dominguez, Wilson, Coates and now probably Ilori - we buy these players pay them for years get nothing out of them and they go on to be serviceable players in other European leagues.

Obviously we're attempting to buy low by getting them early, but we didn't use them or sell high on them so it seems pointless to buy them well before they're ready - which l agree for a centre back is mid twenties unless they're exceptional

 

[hamstrung_pigeon]

I don't think any of those were given an opportunity out of anything other than necessity.

I suppose I'm really thinking of centre backs - and as Keni pointed out if there's not a plan on how to integrate the player it ends in failure.

Agger is probably the only player we've successful successfully done it with. We didn't play him much at the beginning but about 18 months later he was a regular at 24(?).

But when you look at the list of Paletta, Ayala, Mikel Dominguez, Wilson, Coates and now probably Ilori - we buy these players pay them for years get nothing out of them and they go on to be serviceable players in other European leagues.

Obviously we're attempting to buy low by getting them early, but we didn't use them or sell high on them so it seems pointless to buy them well before they're ready - which l agree for a centre back is mid twenties unless they're exceptional

Yup, as mentioned above - if you talk specifically about CBs, then I agree that it seems to make a lot more sense to buy the ready products than to bring in promising youngsters and develop them. For that matter, you can add keepers to that as well (you talk about CBs not getting chances - let's look at our list of keepers... ha!). These are the two positions which you'd want to minimize risks, and playing the youngsters there goes against that.

The caveat, I think, is that in a three CB setup, there might be room to take a bit more risk with one of the flank CB positions. You definitely want your best CB in the middle, but one of the RCB or LCB spots might possibly allow you to take a chance with a youngster. This is what I'm thinking right now; could change my mind next season when Wisdom / Ilori fuck on monumentally there. 😉

 

[mark1975]

Yup, as mentioned above - if you talk specifically about CBs, then I agree that it seems to make a lot more sense to buy the ready products than to bring in promising youngsters and develop them. For that matter, you can add keepers to that as well (you talk about CBs not getting chances - let's look at our list of keepers... ha!). These are the two positions which you'd want to minimize risks, and playing the youngsters there goes against that.

The caveat, I think, is that in a three CB setup, there might be room to take a bit more risk with one of the flank CB positions. You definitely want your best CB in the middle, but one of the RCB or LCB spots might possibly allow you to take a chance with a youngster. This is what I'm thinking right now; could change my mind next season when Wisdom / Ilori fuck on monumentally there. 😉

In fairness, we have taken a risk in one of the flank centre back positions - we've played young Can there. Otherwise I agree, it's a difficult position to start blooding youngsters.

 

[Brizzle]

It feels like our plan is buy talented looking young CBs and sending them out on years and years of loans. What has worked well with some of our other players who have gone on loans is having those spells of integrating with the team at various points e.g. pre season which doesnt look to have happened for Ilori or Wisdom as prime examples.

Mark is right that Can as a youngun has been given a chance but he was definitely not bought as a CB!

 

[Oncy]

Mikel San Jose was one of ours wasnt he?

 

[Fabio]

Mikel San Jose was one of ours wasnt he?

Yup