Trent’s new position

[StevieM]

What are we thinking here - that we’re moving from a 433 to more of a 343 and not playing with full back at all?

Maybe Trent & Fabs forming sone sort of double pivot defensive midfield / deep lying playmaker set up with 2 attacking midfielders playing further forward to create chances, score more and provide width.?

With Gakpo in a false 9 it almost becomes a 3232.

 

[rurikbird]

What are we thinking here - that we’re moving from a 433 to more of a 343 and not playing with full back at all?

Maybe Trent & Fabs forming sone sort of double pivot defensive midfield / deep lying playmaker set up with 2 attacking midfielders playing further forward to create chances, score more and provide width.?

With Gakpo in a false 9 it almost becomes a 3232.

Yeah, something like that. I’d also like to try Gakpo at #10 with Nunez up front and 2 wingers. Looks like Arsenal are moving towards this model for next season as well - that’s the only plausible explanation for their interest in Havertz. Looks tempting because you can fit more attackers on the pitch this way and there are more defenders capable of performing well in a 3 than in a 2, as well as more midfielders capable of playing in a double-pivot compared to the very specialized lone 6 role.

Who needs fullbacks anyway?

 

[StevieM]

Yeah, something like that. I’d also like to try Gakpo at #10 with Nunez up front and 2 wingers. Looks like Arsenal are moving towards this model for next season as well - that’s the only plausible explanation for their interest in Havertz. Looks tempting because you can fit more attackers on the pitch this way and there are more defenders capable of performing well in a 3 than in a 2, as well as more midfielders capable of playing in a double-pivot compared to the very specialized lone 6 role.

Who needs fullbacks anyway?

I can see us setting up something like this next season, with us lining up 433 out of possession, but droppyinto a more 3232 formation in possession :

The variation being Robbo steps into the back 3 and Virgil shift across right - but that stops Robbo going forward. I think that’ll be the key - who goes forward and when, with others moving to accommodate.

I could see Robbo pushing up from LB and offer the width with Mac Allister dropping a little deeper beside Trent if Fabs is in behind.
Harvey & Fabs are the obvious ones to replace.

There’s plenty opportunity to vary the attack lines and that 3241 you speak of could be pulled out of the bag when we need to go for it - like last 20 minutes against a packed deep lying 5 at the back system.

Different personnel would contribute different nuances - on the left Curtis more width, Thiago deeper but more control - On the right, Harvey is more attacking while Hendo should be able to dig in and provide us more control if we want to close up shop and see out a lead.

Up front, Nunez could provide more direct running on the left or a proper 9 pushing up on the last defender, Jota & Diaz offer different options on the left.

Before Bluebell, Moron or Binomial lose their minds - this is based on who we have right now and not who we might have.

It’s also why I think it’ll be one of Thuram, Viega or even Gravenberch, not 2.

If Bradley is up to it, then we could drop to a more traditional RB set up with him providing the width like Trent used to (but I don’t see how this works with Trent in midfield- because you’d be relying on Trent to be the one providing defensive cover.

 

[Modo]

Well its kinda hard to judge him against Malta. You could practically anyone and they would stand out.

I just don't see us buying a RB this summer. Midfield is our main priority.

Ok, let's say Klopp insists on playing him at RB or some RWB/deep lying RCM type position where half the team has to cover for him don't we still need RB cover or is Gomez it?

 

[Red Bird]

I suppose half the team covering for him is just hyperbole ?

 

[Fabio]

I do enjoy the media trying to force Trent in to midfield proper. I've seen an article saying with the number 10 and the dreads, there was shades of Gullit

 

[Dreambeliever]

Then we probably need to stop trying to buy another midfielder and focus on a RB - if it is indeed the plan to move Trent into midfield.

We need another with Trent.

 

[Red Bird]

I do enjoy the media trying to force Trent in to midfield proper. I've seen an article saying with the number 10 and the dreads, there was shades of Gullit

It’s like that every time a player has a passably decent game— it’s hyped beyond all comprehension. Hopefully the player himself remembers the times the same media was collectively roasting for any errors he made in the past.

 

[Modo]

I suppose half the team covering for him is just hyperbole ?

Obviously, I just don't like the idea of having one or more players on the pitch that are specifically meant to cover for him. How many times did we see that fail last season?
Also our midfield is non-productive assist and goal wise as it is.

 

[Brizzle]

I’d like to see us try him as a pure CM now, but that requires a good RB to come in.

If we don’t do this then we don’t even give ourselves the option to try it, unless Klopp looks to EL games to have Gomez/Bradley at RB and Trent further up. I’m really starting to think it’s time to remove his responsibilities of tracking opposition wingers and becoming a forward pressing CM / playmaker.

 

[tomasjj]

I do enjoy the media trying to force Trent in to midfield proper. I've seen an article saying with the number 10 and the dreads, there was shades of Gullit

the problem is he seems to believe it himself

 

[StevieM]

I’d like to see us try him as a pure CM now, but that requires a good RB to come in.

If we don’t do this then we don’t even give ourselves the option to try it, unless Klopp looks to EL games to have Gomez/Bradley at RB and Trent further up. I’m really starting to think it’s time to remove his responsibilities of tracking opposition wingers and becoming a forward pressing CM / playmaker.

Here’s my problem.

We play with inverted wingers - Salah providing width just means you reduce his effectiveness and lose the goals and assists that come even when he isn’t playing well.

Someone needs to provide an overlap to take away one of the 2-3 defenders that are on him.

It can only be the RM or RB that provides the overlap.

If the RB is high up the pitch then surely the RM needs to hold back and take on a more defensive outlook - if they commit to the attack as well - then the entire right side is open.

On the left, if Thiago is playing, he generally holds a deep position and Robbo provides the width. If Curtis is playing, he provides the width and Robbo has to hold his position more.

If the RM goes for the overlap the surely either the DM or the RB has to plug that gap. If it’s the DM he’s dragged out of position and someone needs to cover him. If it’s the RB he needs to be able to offer some creativity in MF (which is why I think this works for Trent).

I just worry that putting Trent into a fixed MF position ends up not doing the thing we want - which is create space and time for him to kill teams.

I think Trent in a deep central position means if we can get ball to him when teams are pressing us high up the pitch, he can open up our forward options.

Someone needs to cover out wide out of possession regardless, if we play with 3 at the back, we either need a WB or the RM has to cover, because if one of the 3 has to cover it’ll unbalance us - you want the 3 narrow or the space in between the lines is there to be exploited.

Trent can look good against Malta - but against decent teams, I think he creates more problems than he solves as a traditional MF.

 

[binomial]

I do enjoy the media trying to force Trent in to midfield proper. I've seen an article saying with the number 10 and the dreads, there was shades of Gullit

That’s Trent trying to force Trent into midfield proper.

 

[rurikbird]

I think Diaz is ideally suited to the role of the wing-forward/wing-back. Salah will be harder to accommodate - someone will need to plug the gaps.

 

[mwake]

We need another with Trent.

Agreed.

I think this is why Klopp has been reluctant to put Trent in midfield in the traditional sense. I think Klopp doesn't want to give up on the attacking unpredictability that you get from Trent in the right back role. Like teams find it hard to nullify Trent attacking wise when he's in the right back role.


Whilst its possible that Trent could be marked out of a game more easily in midfield, I think we reached the point where Trent's liability defensively as a right back is more problematic.

 

[binomial]

We need another Trent.

Fixed

 

[Judge Jules]

Here’s my problem.

We play with inverted wingers - Salah providing width just means you reduce his effectiveness and lose the goals and assists that come even when he isn’t playing well.

Someone needs to provide an overlap to take away one of the 2-3 defenders that are on him.

It can only be the RM or RB that provides the overlap.

If the RB is high up the pitch then surely the RM needs to hold back and take on a more defensive outlook - if they commit to the attack as well - then the entire right side is open.

On the left, if Thiago is playing, he generally holds a deep position and Robbo provides the width. If Curtis is playing, he provides the width and Robbo has to hold his position more.

If the RM goes for the overlap the surely either the DM or the RB has to plug that gap. If it’s the DM he’s dragged out of position and someone needs to cover him. If it’s the RB he needs to be able to offer some creativity in MF (which is why I think this works for Trent).

I just worry that putting Trent into a fixed MF position ends up not doing the thing we want - which is create space and time for him to kill teams.

I think Trent in a deep central position means if we can get ball to him when teams are pressing us high up the pitch, he can open up our forward options.

Someone needs to cover out wide out of possession regardless, if we play with 3 at the back, we either need a WB or the RM has to cover, because if one of the 3 has to cover it’ll unbalance us - you want the 3 narrow or the space in between the lines is there to be exploited.

Trent can look good against Malta - but against decent teams, I think he creates more problems than he solves as a traditional MF.

Some good points here but one which - sorry - is piffle, namely the idea that playing Salah wide "reduces his effectiveness". His numbers over the time he's been at LFC kick that extraordinary suggestion straight into touch, not to mention the times when he's played down the middle and has been crowded out of the game there.

 

[Farkmaster]

Some good points here but one which - sorry - is piffle, namely the idea that playing Salah wide "reduces his effectiveness". His numbers over the time he's been at LFC kick that extraordinary suggestion straight into touch, not to mention the times when he's played down the middle and has been crowded out of the game there.

Salah can't and won't play on the line anymore, this season has made that abundantly clear.

 

[rurikbird]

Salah can't and won't play on the line anymore, this season has made that abundantly clear.

I think Salah played a bit wider since the change of system last season and scored and assisted more despite being “farther” from goal. Frankly having a good partner to combine with like Gakpo is probably a bigger factor than the starting position.

Maybe the best argument in favour of Salah holding the flank mostly on his own, with some help from the RCB and RCM, is City - if Mahrez and Grealish can do it, so can Salah and Diaz.

 

[Judge Jules]

Salah can't and won't play on the line anymore, this season has made that abundantly clear.

He never has. It's always been a starting-point for him to receive the ball in space and attack inwards.

 

[StevieM]

Some good points here but one which - sorry - is piffle, namely the idea that playing Salah wide "reduces his effectiveness". His numbers over the time he's been at LFC kick that extraordinary suggestion straight into touch, not to mention the times when he's played down the middle and has been crowded out of the game there.

I mean staying out wide and hugging the line, going on the outside.

Salah is an inverted winger, so he’s at his best cutting in from wide areas.

That was what I meant - but yes, it’s all about his ability to find space - someone needs to be running outside him or in the channels between opposition LB & CB.

 

[Farkmaster]

He never has. It's always been a starting-point for him to receive the ball in space and attack inwards.

He failed to do what you are describing all season. He has done far more receiving it in the channel, with someone else making space.

 

[Glen C]

Ok, let's say Klopp insists on playing him at RB or some RWB/deep lying RCM type position where half the team has to cover for him don't we still need RB cover or is Gomez it?

Yep it does seem that way which is very worrying. We do need another RB regardless of trent with milner gone.

 

[rurikbird]

Yep it does seem that way which is very worrying. We do need another RB regardless of trent with milner gone.

I would just sell Gomez and buy a top-notch defensive RB/CB prospect like Timber. Someone who can cover for both Trent and for Konate.

And on the other side we need a quality ball-playing LCB to compete/rotate with Robbo. If we’re going to play with 3 at the back long-term, we simply have to to buy more centre-backs!

 

[Glen C]

I would just sell Gomez and buy a top-notch defensive RB/CB prospect like Timber. Someone who can cover for both Trent and for Konate.

And on the other side we need a quality ball-playing LCB to compete/rotate with Robbo. If we’re going to play with 3 at the back long-term, we simply have to to buy more centre-backs!

In an ideal world that would be great. But i dont think we have the money.

 

[rurikbird]

In an ideal world that would be great. But i dont think we have the money.

If we don’t have the money for the first-choice target, we can always switch to a cheaper alternative, just like we switched from Bellingham to Thuram. But doing nothing won’t fix our problems. Unless they have reason to believe Gomez’s form last season was an anomaly and he will be much better from now on.

 

[Squiggles]

In my mind, Gomez is a far more solid defensive RB than a CB. There is not much evidence, but his sub/infrequent appearances there have been pretty decent. He can whip a cross in, too. There needs to be another option if Trent does make his transition higher up the pitch a permanent one.

Despite the success of the inverted fullback role, I'm siding with the view that freeing Trent up further is key to unlocking his full use of talents and will be of a net benefit to the side. In the current system, Trent is getting on the ball frequently and dictating play, and few can argue with our results since its inception. However he does have to spend both physical and mental energy covering, tracking back, finding the right balance, etc, and that shouldn't be underestimated. I would also wager sides will find better means to exploit and counter the inverted fullback renaissance this season, so its appeal may well dwindle. Going back to Trent, there is a clumsy comparison to be made to Houllier restricting Gerrard to the DM and RM role for too long. Eventually, you just need to stick your biggest talent in their best position and build everything from there. We're going to reach that point with Trent this season, IMO. Whether that's in a holding playmaker role in a 4-2-3-1 or an 8 in a 4-3-3 is worthy of some experiment against the weaker sides, but the argument to 'release the defensive shackles' will only grow.

 

[Fabio]

I'll be interested to see how Trent is used in preseason

 

[King Binny]

 

[rurikbird]

Did he play well again?