Coutinho
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Anyone else noticed that even though his goals tally hasn't gotten better, his shooting accuracy has actually improved over last season? I kind of remember it was a common gripe last season that he used to lean back and put his shots high and wide last season a lot. This season though, he seems to be getting them low, but just lacking power or pulling them wide of the post. Looked up his numbers, and indeed, he was shooting a dismal 38% accuracy last season (excluding blocked shots), and has actually pushed it up to 52% this season. This is still off his first half-season though, when he put 58% of his shots on target.
Needs to keep doing extra sessions, working on those shooting angles and maybe pack a bit more power into his shots.
Needs to keep doing extra sessions, working on those shooting angles and maybe pack a bit more power into his shots.
With the extra training he is doing hopefully this goal will kick start a flood of goals. I reckon it might just be.
I reckon it might just be the start for him. Once he starts scoring consistently he will grow into superstar status
You don't have to be a genius to see the quality he brings to the table. I "get" some level of criticism that comes his way, because he does make the wrong decisions at times, he's also been the source of a huge portion of our goals over the last couple of years and statistically he's not that far off some of the players he's being compared to - in some respects he surpasses them.
There seems to be this myth with certain other players, that people don't see the quality they bring to the team in what they do off the ball and what they bring in terms of movement etc - fair enough, in many instances there's some truth in it, we've seen it argued as a case for Allen, but at the end of the day, there has to be over the course of a few seasons, some visible impact on the team, rather than just coming in and filling a hole, keeping momentum going, etc. People aren't stupid because they expect to see something more, some kind of direct impact.
That's why it baffles me that some players get backed to the hilt as having obvious quality, which never seems to quite come to the fore - the "thinking man's footballer" pretentious crap. While someone like Coutinho can bring so much obvious quality to the table, yet draw so much criticism. It's nonsense. Yes he's someway off being World Class, but he's also one of the most likely to end up being.
There seems to be this myth with certain other players, that people don't see the quality they bring to the team in what they do off the ball and what they bring in terms of movement etc - fair enough, in many instances there's some truth in it, we've seen it argued as a case for Allen, but at the end of the day, there has to be over the course of a few seasons, some visible impact on the team, rather than just coming in and filling a hole, keeping momentum going, etc. People aren't stupid because they expect to see something more, some kind of direct impact.
That's why it baffles me that some players get backed to the hilt as having obvious quality, which never seems to quite come to the fore - the "thinking man's footballer" pretentious crap. While someone like Coutinho can bring so much obvious quality to the table, yet draw so much criticism. It's nonsense. Yes he's someway off being World Class, but he's also one of the most likely to end up being.
I actually agree with Ryan most of the time too.
One of the sites' greatest posters and most knowledgeable about the game. But It's that very fact however that makes the constant sideswipes at Coutinho kind of odd (albeit in a way that simultaneously rates the player) and almost Modo-esque in its tediousness. Just unnecessary. How about you talk about how shit Allen is instead?
1. This is a Coutinho thread. I didn't see the "Lallana" thread. Maybe 'Coutinho' means Lallana in Runcorn?
2. I thought he gave the ball away all night. I'd be happy to see stats that proved me wrong though. Scored a fucking belter though, no question. I'd have no issue if he followed up losing possession with some of those screamers on a regular basis, in the same way as I didn't have an issue with Garcia doing it by comparison.
3. Your post is on Modo "I've taken abuse at my boy from you lot for ages" levels here Mark.
I think Wee Joe should take Coutinho's place in the side. You know to keep things ticking over in the midfield.
Just to provide an answer on this part - according to stats on whoscored (it's harder to find numbers for cup games than for league games):
1. 85.5% passing accuracy on the night (55 attempted passes; i.e. 8 missed passes)
2. dispossessed: 4 times - team high (Sterling next with 3) (explanation: player is dispossessed on the ball by an opponent - no dribble involved)
3. unstable (?) touches: 5 - team high (Sterling next with 4) (explanation: bad control)
4. successful dribbles: 5 - team high (Can next with 3)
Actually, this is better - Coutinho v Bolton (away). I've browsed the first bits of it, and it shows both good / bad passes and touches. Folks can curate this and probably judge better than just stats which have to be taken with caveats (e.g. pass accuracy can be padded, dispossession stats can be due to good defending as well, etc.):
Somebody earlier was claiming that Coutinho is the best player in the league at carrying the ball forward. Not sure if "carrying the ball forward" means the same as "successful dribbles," but if we go by the latter stat, Coutinho is 6th in the league (among players who played at least 1000 minutes), top 7 is as follows:
Hazard 4.7 per game
Oxlade-Chamberlain 3.8
Alexis Sanchez 3.5
Ross Barkley 3.3
Sterling 3.2
Coutinho 2.9
Bojan 2.8
For comparison, here are the most successful dribblers in Spain:
Messi 4.4 per game
Cartabia 3.1
Isco 2.8
Neymar 2.8
Muniain 2.6
Kakuta 2.4
... Gareth Bale 2.1
Italy:
Diego Perotti 3.6
Franco Vasquez 3.6
Gervinho 3.5
Pogba 3.2
Marco Kovacic 3.2
Dybala 3.1
Ibarbo 3.0
... Cuadrado 2.5
Germany:
Robben 4.7
Bellarabi 4.5
Choupo-Moting 4.0
Firmino 4.0
Ribery 3.5 (< 1000mins)
De Bruyne 3.2
Mkhitaryan 3.2 (< 1000mins)
France:
Imbula 3.6
Lucas Moura 3.6
Fekir 2.9
Sanson 2.8
Thauvin 2.5
Lacazette 2.4
Ntep 2.4
All stats from Whoscored.com
Hazard 4.7 per game
Oxlade-Chamberlain 3.8
Alexis Sanchez 3.5
Ross Barkley 3.3
Sterling 3.2
Coutinho 2.9
Bojan 2.8
For comparison, here are the most successful dribblers in Spain:
Messi 4.4 per game
Cartabia 3.1
Isco 2.8
Neymar 2.8
Muniain 2.6
Kakuta 2.4
... Gareth Bale 2.1
Italy:
Diego Perotti 3.6
Franco Vasquez 3.6
Gervinho 3.5
Pogba 3.2
Marco Kovacic 3.2
Dybala 3.1
Ibarbo 3.0
... Cuadrado 2.5
Germany:
Robben 4.7
Bellarabi 4.5
Choupo-Moting 4.0
Firmino 4.0
Ribery 3.5 (< 1000mins)
De Bruyne 3.2
Mkhitaryan 3.2 (< 1000mins)
France:
Imbula 3.6
Lucas Moura 3.6
Fekir 2.9
Sanson 2.8
Thauvin 2.5
Lacazette 2.4
Ntep 2.4
All stats from Whoscored.com
Still think his goal against City was not an important goal?
Or are you just ignoring your own post?
Oh and for the record of the 11 goals he's scored here's a run down
Jan - May 2013
Swansea home
Second goal in a 5-0 win against Swansea for his first goal for Liverpool
Southampton away
Scored our only goal to pull us back into the game at St Mary's to make it 2-1 before we eventually went down 3-1
QPR home
Only goal of the game giving us a 1-0 and what a belter of a goal it was too.
Aug 2013 - May 2014
Everton away
First goal in the derby (yep definitely not important scoring first in a derby!)
Man City away
First goal away to Man City when we were top of the league (yep rubbish scoring the opening goal again against the best side in the league in a top of the table clash!)
Fulham away
Equalising goal in a must win game when we came from 2-0 down to win 3-2 while chasing the title, again not very important was it?)
Spurs Home
Third goal in a convincing 4-0 against Spurs while chasing the league title.
Man City Home
Third goal in a 3-2 to put the title race in our hands for the first time. Scored after Man City came from 2-0 down to peg us back and were on top. (Are you feeling as stupid as you are looking yet Ryan?)
Aug 2014 - Present
QPR away
Second goal in stoppage time to put us 2-1 in a game we eventually won 3-2
Arsenal home
First goal of the game in a thrilling 2-2 with Arsenal (scoring the opener against a top 4 side is pretty damn important in anyone's book no?)
Bolton away (FA Cup)
Second goal in a come from behind 2-1 win in stoppage time to book our passage to the fifth round of the FA Cup
So all in all he has scored 11 goals so far
10 in the league
1 in a cup
The 1 in the cup was an injury time winner in a reply that got us to the next round and was an absolute belter
Of the 10 league goals 2 were match winner, 4 were opening goals, and 4 were what even you Ryan would have to deem crucial and or important goals. (Man City x 2 , Everton, Arsenal)
So that's 40% of his league goals than have been exactly what you said he has never done while being here.
You can apologise for your rushed misinformed post anytime you like.
It depends what you expect from an AM. He creates as many as most top AM's do, he's younger than many of his peers he's being compared to, and he's shown he can score important goals, so the foundations are there for him to push on. People need to take a closer look at other players in the same position, the way some posters in this thread carry on, you'd swear that every pass comes off for the likes of Silva and co, if that were the case, the amount of assists would reflect that astronomically. The fact is, if you're in a key position where you are the main source of a key pass, you're going to be under the microscope and more likely to squander possession, trying to make something happen. Isn't that the point? Most AM's will try intelligent, attacking passes throughout a game, and eventually it will tell - providing that A) You're good enough to do it, and B) You have the firepower & movement ahead of you to make it work.
At best he's had a fairly hit and miss Sterling in front of him this season, at worst he's had Lambert or Balotelli giving zero movement. Modric, allbeit from a slightly deeper position, has 7 goals in 121 for Madrid, Amair scored 34 in 204 for Valencia, Silva has 36 in 200. Coutinho has 11 in 80. He's not that far off, it's a bit of a myth that top AM's bang them in.
Silva is actually a good comparison. He joined Valencia at roughly the same age, and scored 21 league goals in his first four seasons. Coutinho has 10 goals in his first two seasons.
The most league goals Silva has ever scored in a season is 8, for Coutinho it's 5.
Then take Garcia, he joined us at 26, when a player of their type is supposed to be at their prime. He scored 18 league goals over three seasons.
He's not that far off how many goals he should be getting for a player of his type.
I think he'll far outperform Garcia's impact on games over the next few years with us. Silva is what he should be aiming for, and he's still a bit off that, but he's way more likely to hit it than most players his age.
The most league goals Silva has ever scored in a season is 8, for Coutinho it's 5.
Then take Garcia, he joined us at 26, when a player of their type is supposed to be at their prime. He scored 18 league goals over three seasons.
He's not that far off how many goals he should be getting for a player of his type.
I think he'll far outperform Garcia's impact on games over the next few years with us. Silva is what he should be aiming for, and he's still a bit off that, but he's way more likely to hit it than most players his age.
But Mark, look at how many shots Coutinho has each game, and how often they're wide, or generally shite
He CAN score more because he shoots often, he's just shit at it. He SHOULD be scoring more
If you're bringing in a real Madrid player, why not someone who's playing in a similar position, like Rodriguez?
He CAN score more because he shoots often, he's just shit at it. He SHOULD be scoring more
If you're bringing in a real Madrid player, why not someone who's playing in a similar position, like Rodriguez?
I think comparing him(an £8m player) to a player that's gone for over 100m in transfer fees is a little harsh, but anyway. James has averaged around 10 league goals a season. It's not a mountain of a difference, and I think Coutinho will come close to that over the next few years.
That's the bit worth focusing on and not the position he plays. As said, there are too many AM's that are goal shy for whatever reason - in Silva's case I think it's a reluctance to take shots on, which is ironic given the comparisons.
Coutinho shoots a lot and his conversion rate doesn't really justify it. As said, he's improved markedly over last season's shitty scuffed shots but at the moment he seems to have a preference for trying to outwit the keeper at the near post or hitting it straight at the keeper.
I wonder whether he'll stop taking on as many shots when we get Sturridge / a proper striker back in the side. The team has been struggling badly for goals and if nothing else, you can say Coutinho has tried to step up and do something about it.
Correct
No doubt. He should be scoring more and hopefully he will. The point Ryan made was that he has never scored an 'important' goal,which is utterly and completely wrong.
Not if he's 27/28 maybe. Coutinho's 22, with a fair bit of learning still to do. It makes no sense to apply the same expectations to him.
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