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Legacies - Rafa vs Ged

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singlerider

singlerider

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So. The end of an era. He came, he saw, he won some stuff but didn't quite deliver what we all wanted - similar to his predecessor.

So I'm wondering, in the years to come how do you think Rafa will be seen, and how do you think this will compare to Ged's legacy? I think most people will agree that Houllier's last days were dark times, and it's fairly well accepted that he overstayed his welcome a touch which in the long run I would say has tainted people's perceptions of the man.

Let's not forget that Ged did bring success - to an extent. He gave us some brilliant memories, gave us some thrills along the way and gave us some true legends to remember - but sadly for many people when they look back they can't see past the summer of Diouf and Diao, the Biscans and Traores, and for those people there will always be an undercurrent of resentment.

So what will become of Rafa? Will time heal for those sick of him now, will we look back on his reign with nothing but fond memories, or will this last season have tainted those memories for some?

What about the transfers? These are often the stick that Ged is beaten with the hardest, but was his overall record really *that* bad? Ignoring the cheapies and the ones that never really played, his main signings were:

Rigobert Song £2.5M
Djimi £500K
Sami - £2.5M
Vlad - £4M
Titi - £2.5M
Henchoz - £3.5M
Westerweld - £4M
Didi - £8M
Heskey - £11M
Gary Mac - free
Babbel - free
Barmby - £6M
Ziege - £5.5M
Igor - £5.5M
Jari - free
JAR - £4M
Meeeeeeelan - £3M
Kirkland - £6M
Dudek - £5M
Abel Xavier - £1M
Cheyrou - £4M
Spit - £10M
Diao - £5
Le Tallec - £1.5M
Pongolle - £1.5M
Finnan - £3.5M
Kewell - £5M
Djibs - £14.5M

Now, to make a fair comparison against Rafa's transfers then obviously we'd need to do something clever with the inflation or summat, because it's gone from top top players costing £30M to upwards of £60M, so some madness has gone on there - but if we're to judge them independently in their own right, then there are some pretty big wins right there - Sami, Didi, Gary Mac, Markus Babbel, Jari Litmanen, John Arne Riise and Stevie Finnan were all excellent signings. There are a few not bads, a few more jury's out and a few disasters. In fairness, I think overall the good outweighs the bad.

So what about Rafa?

Josemi - £2M
Xabi - £10.5M
Lil Luis - £6M
Pellegrino - free
Morientes - £6.5M
Carson - £1M
Pepe - £6M
Momo - £5.5M
Crouch - £7M
Gonzalez - £1.5M
Kromkamp - swapsies
Agger - £6M
Bellers - £6M
Paletta - £2M
Fabio - free
Pennant - £7M
Dirk - £9M
Arbeloa - £2.5M
Mascher - £18.5M
Lucas - £5M
Leto - £2M
Torres - £20M
Voronin - free
Yossi - £5M
Babel - £11.5M
Insua - £1.5M
Skrtel - £6.5M
Degen - free
Dossena - £7M
Cavalieri - £3.5M
Wash - £1.5M
Keane - £19M
Riera - £8M
Johnson - £17.5M
Aqua - £17M
Kyrgiakos - £2M

So, of that lot there are a few massive wins, such as Fernando, Pepe and Mascher, probably Johnson as well. Agger if he'd stayed fit, Skrtel is a win, Xabi was, Arbeloa was, Kuyt is, Crouch probably was - so there's a few in there. There are plenty of jury's out type players, and quite a few major fuck ups. Overall I would say the balance is slightly in favour of Rafa, but with some big blots.

How these compare to Ged's I dunno - perhaps there needs to be a bit more time and distance until this can be looked at objectively, but I'm kinda leaning towards Rafa doing some of the good things better and the bad things worse, so I don't really know how it'll even out.

In terms of the legacy that they leave behind I think time will tell on Rafa's youth policy - hopefully in the near future we will see this come to fruition, but in the meantime we've got a very decent spine to the team which will hopefully provide the foundation. Ged left behind a team good enough to win the Champions League, so he can't have done all bad. The memories we're left with will obviously be more emotional with Rafa, winning for the fifth time, and in the manner in which we did it will obviously become the stuff of legend, but that's not to discount some of the memories we had with Ged along the way too.

So what do you reckon, when all's said and done, with the benefit of hindsight - how do you think Rafa's achievements will be judged against Ged's?
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=40459.msg1111727#msg1111727 date=1275525660]
Rafa was a better manager than Houllier and achieved more than him too.
[/quote]

And I bet he goes to a bigger club than fucking Lyon
 
Benitez will be remembered favourably, as a man who loved the club, the city and it's fans. His success in 2005 will be talked about for the next hundred years, and his tactical nous over the years made us the most feared team on the continent.

It's all gone to shit because he cannot build a squad, is too stubborn, is overly cautious by nature, has blind-spots in regards to certain players, and is too political.

I have no doubt he'll do brilliantly in Italy, however he's not the man for us any more. Despite this, I wish him well for the future and will always he first to thank him for bringing me my happiest day of supporting this great club.

YNWA
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40459.msg1111734#msg1111734 date=1275526065]
Benitez will be remembered favourably, as a man who loved the club, the city and it's fans. His success in 2005 will be talked about for the next hundred years, and his tactical nous over the years made us the most feared teams on the continent.

It's all gone to shit because he cannot build a squad, is too stubborn, is overly cautious by nature, has blind-spots in regards to certain players, and is too political.

I have no doubt he'll do brilliantly in Italy, however he's not the man for us any more. Despite this, I wish him well for the future and will thank him for bringing me my happiest day of supporting this great club.

YNWA


[/quote]

Yep. Quite.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40459.msg1111730#msg1111730 date=1275525845]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=40459.msg1111727#msg1111727 date=1275525660]
Rafa was a better manager than Houllier and achieved more than him too.
[/quote]

And I bet he goes to a bigger club than fucking Lyon
[/quote]

Lyon were good when Houllier went.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40459.msg1111739#msg1111739 date=1275526236]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40459.msg1111730#msg1111730 date=1275525845]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=40459.msg1111727#msg1111727 date=1275525660]
Rafa was a better manager than Houllier and achieved more than him too.
[/quote]

And I bet he goes to a bigger club than fucking Lyon
[/quote]

Lyon were good when Houllier went.
[/quote]

A 'sideways' move was it?
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40459.msg1111746#msg1111746 date=1275526567]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40459.msg1111739#msg1111739 date=1275526236]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40459.msg1111730#msg1111730 date=1275525845]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=40459.msg1111727#msg1111727 date=1275525660]
Rafa was a better manager than Houllier and achieved more than him too.
[/quote]

And I bet he goes to a bigger club than fucking Lyon
[/quote]

Lyon were good when Houllier went.
[/quote]

A 'sideways' move was it?
[/quote]

Lyon were decent in the CL and certain winners of their league.

Inter are certain winners of their league and have only recently been any competition in Europe.

Meh, I'm not arsed or pedantic enough to argue this with you.
 
Both created teams overly reliant on key players, capable of beating the big teams in one-off games, but equally capable of losing to dross the next week and unable to produce the kind of consistency needed to bring home the title.

Rafa has been very Houllieresque, especially this season. I just wonder if this season will do the same for him as Ged's did for him - will it have turned people against him forever, as some people are now with Ged, or will everyone remember the good stuff first and foremost?

I guess it depends on where we end up
 
[quote author=singlerider link=topic=40459.msg1111756#msg1111756 date=1275526969]
Both created teams overly reliant on key players, capable of beating the big teams in one-off games, but equally capable of losing to dross the next week and unable to produce the kind of consistency needed to bring home the title.

Rafa has been very Houllieresque, especially this season. I just wonder if this season will do the same for him as Ged's did for him - will it have turned people against him forever, as some people are now with Ged, or will everyone remember the good stuff first and foremost?

I guess it depends on where we end up
[/quote]

Mate, which team isn't "overly-relaint" on key players? Do you think United would have won leagues and Champions Leagues in the last 2/3 years if Ronaldo hadn't been there? Look at the effect at Ronaldo-less United had on them this year. Dumped out of the CL at quarter-final stage, and 2nd in the league.

And what about their reliance on Rooney this year? the second he gets injured with 5 games to go, their title challenge walked out the door.

Arsenal with and without Cesc - night and day mate.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40459.msg1111754#msg1111754 date=1275526863]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40459.msg1111746#msg1111746 date=1275526567]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40459.msg1111739#msg1111739 date=1275526236]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40459.msg1111730#msg1111730 date=1275525845]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=40459.msg1111727#msg1111727 date=1275525660]
Rafa was a better manager than Houllier and achieved more than him too.
[/quote]

And I bet he goes to a bigger club than fucking Lyon
[/quote]

Lyon were good when Houllier went.
[/quote]

A 'sideways' move was it?
[/quote]

Lyon were decent in the CL and certain winners of their league.

Inter are certain winners of their league and have only recently been any competition in Europe.

Meh, I'm not arsed or pedantic enough to argue this with you.
[/quote]

That's because you probably re-read your post and realised you were on a hiding to nothing. You seriously comparing Lyon with Inter & Liverpool? If I were you I wouldn't be 'arsed or pedantic enough to argue' the point either.
 
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40459.msg1111776#msg1111776 date=1275527479]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40459.msg1111754#msg1111754 date=1275526863]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40459.msg1111746#msg1111746 date=1275526567]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40459.msg1111739#msg1111739 date=1275526236]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40459.msg1111730#msg1111730 date=1275525845]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=40459.msg1111727#msg1111727 date=1275525660]
Rafa was a better manager than Houllier and achieved more than him too.
[/quote]

And I bet he goes to a bigger club than fucking Lyon
[/quote]

Lyon were good when Houllier went.
[/quote]

A 'sideways' move was it?
[/quote]

Lyon were decent in the CL and certain winners of their league.

Inter are certain winners of their league and have only recently been any competition in Europe.

Meh, I'm not arsed or pedantic enough to argue this with you.
[/quote]

That's because you probably re-read your post and realised you were on a hiding to nothing. You seriously comparing Lyon with Inter & Liverpool? If I were you I wouldn't be 'arsed or pedantic enough to argue' the point either.#
[/quote]

I never compared Lyon and Liverpool. I said "Lyon were good".

You're wrong.

Let it go.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40459.msg1111777#msg1111777 date=1275527553]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40459.msg1111776#msg1111776 date=1275527479]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40459.msg1111754#msg1111754 date=1275526863]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40459.msg1111746#msg1111746 date=1275526567]
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40459.msg1111739#msg1111739 date=1275526236]
[quote author=KopKing link=topic=40459.msg1111730#msg1111730 date=1275525845]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=40459.msg1111727#msg1111727 date=1275525660]
Rafa was a better manager than Houllier and achieved more than him too.
[/quote]

And I bet he goes to a bigger club than fucking Lyon
[/quote]

Lyon were good when Houllier went.
[/quote]

A 'sideways' move was it?
[/quote]

Lyon were decent in the CL and certain winners of their league.

Inter are certain winners of their league and have only recently been any competition in Europe.

Meh, I'm not arsed or pedantic enough to argue this with you.
[/quote]

That's because you probably re-read your post and realised you were on a hiding to nothing. You seriously comparing Lyon with Inter & Liverpool? If I were you I wouldn't be 'arsed or pedantic enough to argue' the point either.#
[/quote]

I never compared Lyon and Liverpool. I said "Lyon were good".

You're wrong.

Let it go.
[/quote]

ha ha Yea I'll let it go. Leaving Liverpool to manage Lyon isn't a step down 'cos "Lyon were good". I'm so wrong, I'll just 'let it go' lol
 
I never said it was a step up, a step down, a step sideways, a step anywhere, so what the fuck are you on about?

What's sad is you're allowing a thread, one which is designed to give everyone an opportunity to post a tribute to your hero in, decend into a pointless fight which nobody gives a fuck about. Me included.

Nice work, Kopking.
 
[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=40459.msg1111788#msg1111788 date=1275528289]
I never said it was a step up, a step down, a step sideways, a step anywhere, so what the fuck are you on about?

What's sad is you're a allowing a thread, one which is designed to give everyone an opportunity to post a tribute to your hero in, decend into a pointless fight which nobody gives a fuck about. Me included.

Nice work, Kopking.
[/quote]

Your welcome. Life goes on
 
Ged integrated the Academy and upped the standards of professionalism. He recognised that the Academy is the production line that could secure our future. Unfortunately, we didn't have players with that X factor or outstanding skills that could break into the first team once Owen and Gerrard graduated. Rafa took the professionalism a step further and invested in better quality international players. What was missing in the prior years that was recently identified by the ex Barca man now in charge is the lack of tactical awareness and development amongst the young crop. Let's hope he stays and continues his good work.

Both were good managers for us and Rafa's legacy will be the starlets at the Academy for years to come.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=40459.msg1111727#msg1111727 date=1275525660]
Rafa was a better manager than Houllier and achieved more than him too.
[/quote]


yet won less trophies.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1111878#msg1111878 date=1275550090]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=40459.msg1111727#msg1111727 date=1275525660]
Rafa was a better manager than Houllier and achieved more than him too.
[/quote]


yet won less trophies.
[/quote]

2 Champions League Finals, and a better points tally in the League than Houllier ever achieved.

As I said, Rafa was a better manager and achieved more.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=40459.msg1111883#msg1111883 date=1275550354]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1111878#msg1111878 date=1275550090]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=40459.msg1111727#msg1111727 date=1275525660]
Rafa was a better manager than Houllier and achieved more than him too.
[/quote]


yet won less trophies.
[/quote]

2 Champions League Finals, and a better points tally in the League than Houllier ever achieved.

As I said, Rafa was a better manager and achieved more.
[/quote]
Indeed, Rafa was/is arguably the better manager of the two even though I've got some great memories from Geds tenure too.
 
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1111919#msg1111919 date=1275553429]
Brendan says - 'Who is this kopking blert is he new?'
[/quote]

Still abusing posters then ?
 
[quote author=themn link=topic=40459.msg1111924#msg1111924 date=1275553597]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1111919#msg1111919 date=1275553429]
Brendan says - 'Who is this kopking blert is he new?'
[/quote]

Still abusing posters then ?
[/quote]

Abuse? It's like being savaged by a chihuahua.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=40459.msg1111878#msg1111878 date=1275550090]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=40459.msg1111727#msg1111727 date=1275525660]
Rafa was a better manager than Houllier and achieved more than him too.
[/quote]


yet won less trophies.
[/quote]Why bother mate. Rafa = David Koresh.
 
Houllier did a faboulous job in restructuring the club for a more modern operation. We needed him at his time.

However in football the results are important and Rafa had better results in the end.

On the other hand, football is also about entertainment and I am very very ready to be a little bit entertained now.
 
Is it even debatable?
CL champions.
UEFA cup champions.
Enough said
Anyone can name last 5 UEFA cup winners?
nobody care about the "losers' cup"..... yeah the one join by the losers of the CL
 
I thought football was about trophies. We wouldn't have won the cl without ged's 'poor' last season getting us fourth. Here we are now finishing 7th and people are trying to say Benitez did more and defending him?

2 trophies benitez won. 1 was fantastic, another houllier won. Houllier won more. End of

Yes we're all tainted by Istanbul, but people need to remember that success normally comes with an award
 
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