Legacies - Rafa vs Ged

[Vlads Quiff]

[quote author=Delinquent link=topic=40459.msg1113181#msg1113181 date=1275653618]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113045#msg1113045 date=1275642213]
[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1112004#msg1112004 date=1275557289]
Goalkeepers
1 Jurek Dudek, 22 Chris Kirkland, 29 Patrice Luzi
Defenders
Carl Medjani, 2 Stephane Henchoz, 36 Jon Otsemobor, 3 Steve Finnan, John Welsh, 21 Djimi Traore, 4 Sami Hyypia, 15 Salif Diao, 23 Jamie Carragher
Midfielders
16 Dietmar Hamann, 18 John Arne Riise, 13 Danny Murphy, 28 Bruno Cheyrou, 17 Steven Gerrard, 25 Igor Biscan, 11 Vladimir Smicer
Forwards
10 Michael Owen, 9 El Hadji Diouf, 20 Anthony Le Tallec, 5 Milan Baros, 24 Florent Sinama Pongolle, 7 Harry Kewell, 8 Emile Heskey, 26 Richie Partridge

what a wonderful squad
I am sure top managers would rather have them than the likes of reina, johnson, carra, agger, masher, gerrard, torres, yossi, kuyt......
[/quote]

but you have included Carra and Gerrard in Rafa's squad list.
Lets have a look at this as a matter of interest

reina, v Dudek , yes ceratinly Rafa Win (although we had excellent 'keeper back up under Ged)
johnson, v Finnan, sorry no Ged Win
agger v Henchoz or Hyppia no Ged Win
masher v Didi, I like Mascher but I like Didi more Ged Win
torres V Owen had it by then clearly Rafa Win
yossi v Vladi (I go for Vlad but.......Draw
kuyt....v Heskey Ged Win
I see there is no Cisse so if there is an argument over Kuyt v Heskey, just stick him in instead.

Ged wins 4-2,

You will also note that Geds squad had a lot more depth to it. You will also note that the team that won the CL and FA cup was basically Geds with 16 out of the 18 man squad.

Dudek, Finnan (Hamann 46), Traore, Hyypia, Carragher, Riise, Gerrard, Luis Garcia, Alonso, Kewell (Smicer 23), Baros (Cisse 85).
Subs Not Used: Carson, Josemi, Nunez, Biscan.


As people have said they are similar in so many ways, but Rafa did inherit a much healthier squad in a much healthier position in real terms than Ged did.
I think Ged was the better manager, by quite some way to be honest.


regards


[/quote]

I've agreed with most of your assessments of late Vlad, but I think this one is quite obviously clouded with bias.
[/quote]

Haha, fair enough Del, the only real bias I have there is that I know Dirk is very limited, but sometimes punches above his weight.
The Yossi v Vladi thing, Vladi fit and on form, was as good as anyone. If you cast your mind back to those days the man the players always pointed to in training as being a top player was Vlad, and a key member of a the Worlds top National team at the time.
In fairness I did put them as even, even with a smidgen of bias there.

regards

 

[Stulikesdrums]

I don't think I've ever seen Vlad this angry.

 

[keniget]

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113196#msg1113196 date=1275654404]
If you cast your mind back to those days the man the players always pointed to in training as being a top player was Vlad, and a key member of a the Worlds top National team at the time.
[/quote]

Vlad's last game for us was beautiful, but what he did for the national side was by the by as were his performances in training. Yossi has contributed more.

 

[Vlads Quiff]

[quote author=keniget link=topic=40459.msg1113207#msg1113207 date=1275655205]
[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113196#msg1113196 date=1275654404]
If you cast your mind back to those days the man the players always pointed to in training as being a top player was Vlad, and a key member of a the Worlds top National team at the time.
[/quote]

Vlad's last game for us was beautiful, but what he did for the national side was by the by as were his performances in training. Yossi has contributed more.
[/quote]

Don't get me wrong, I like Yossi and supported him when he was even more of a whipping boy than he is now.
I don't think given Vlads injury record that it is fair to compare the two on contribution, hence I was neutral in my assessment, despite my feelings on Vlad

regards

 

[spider-Neil]

vlad you'd rather than finann than johnson? I certainly wouldn't. I'd also rather agger than handchoz, kuyt over heskey and mash over didi.

 

[Vlads Quiff]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1113230#msg1113230 date=1275656565]
vlad you'd rather than finann than johnson? I certainly wouldn't. I'd also rather agger than handchoz, kuyt over heskey and mash over didi.
[/quote]

I know you would

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Vlads Quiff link=topic=40459.msg1113233#msg1113233 date=1275656679]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1113230#msg1113230 date=1275656565]
vlad you'd rather than finann than johnson? I certainly wouldn't. I'd also rather agger than handchoz, kuyt over heskey and mash over didi.
[/quote]

I know you would


[/quote]

heh heh 🙂

 

[Vlads Quiff]

[quote author=Stulikesdrums link=topic=40459.msg1113199#msg1113199 date=1275654515]
I don't think I've ever seen Vlad this angry.
[/quote]

You don't know me very well Stu, on here I am genial old Vlad, everywhere else I am a big angry old git who people don't fuck about with 😉


regards

 

[singlerider]

[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1113169#msg1113169 date=1275652767]
With all due respect, I guess u got it all wrong. You are comparing players overall. We were comparing who left the better squad. The fact that Sami was a legend should not make u to take him over agger at the age of over 31. Same as didi. They had minimal transfer value and went into the declining part of their career. Rafa did buy a lot of garbage but he hit the jackpot at torres as well as some very good buy. We can rebuild immediately if we sell them all. No rational manager would take ged's squad over rafa's, much less "healthier squad in a much healthier position in real term" That's the key of the argument.
[/quote]

I would take Sami when Ged left over Agger now.

So what if he was 31 - what was gonna happen, he'd lose his pace?

Obviously I'd take Mascher now over Didi then, but if we're comparing squads that were left, then I guess it all depends on whether Mascher is actually still gonna be around. In which case it defaults to Lucas vs Didi. I pick Didi.

There's also the issue of it being the overall squad, and not just the first team.

I'd say that if you compare the squad that Ged left with the squad that Rafa has left, then it's very much up for debate:

Dudek Reina
Kirkland Cavalieri
Carra Carra
Babbel(?) Agger
Finnan Johnson
Henchoz Skrtel
Hyypia Kyrgiakos
Otsembor Darby
Riise Insua
Traore Degen
Vignal Kelly
Warnock Ayala
Cheyrou Riera
Biscan Lucas
Diao Plessis
Hamaan Mascher
Gerrard Gerrard
Murphy Aqualani
Kewell Babel
Le Tallec Maxi
Partridge Pacheco
Potter Spearing
Welsh El Zhar
Smicer Yossi
Heskey Ngog
Baros Torres
Cisse
Mellor
Pongolle

(Not intended as a like for like comparison, just the order they came to me, I've tried to include some ressies and that as well)

So - keepers we're doing much better now with Pepe as first team, but the back up is Cavalieri vs Kirkland. Haven't really seen enough of Cavalieri to decide, so we'll pass on that one.

Centre back - Carra/Hyypia/Henchoz/youth vs Carra/Agger/Skrtel/Greek/youth - I'd say Rafa's wins for strength of depth.

Right back - Finnan/Babbel (was he still on the books then?) /Otsembor vs Johnson/Degen/Darby - I'd say first team I'd give it slightly to Finnan, as I think he was by far the better defender and actually massively underrated (or underutilised) as an attacking force. If Babbel was still on the books, then he pisses all over Degen. Darby is probably better than Otsembor, who I remember as being fast, but not much else. Overall Rafa's probably edges it.

Left back - needs no explanation. Ged's team absolutely hands down

Centre mid - Gerrard/Didi/Biscan/Diao/Murphy vs Gerrard/Mascher/Aqualani/Lucas/Plessis. Gerrard/Mascher now > Gerrard/Hamann then, but get to the back up and it's not so one-sided, Aqualani none of us can really comment on because we've barely seen him play, Lucas is roughly equivalent of Biscan I reckon, Plessis probably about the level of Diao. However, if you also consider that actually to make it a fair comparison, given that Stevie has played more as a forward, then this should really be Lucas/Mascher vs Gerrard/Hamann - which is a no-brainer. Overall I think this one goes slightly to Ged's team.

Right mid - Vlad/Murphy/Le Tallec/Pongolle/Partridge vs Kuyt/Maxi/errr . . . Degen? Squad wise I'd say it to goes to Ged's team, there might not exactly be strength in depth, but at least there's more depth there. That said if we hang on to Yossi and the new guy plays him on the right rather than the left, the balance may shift

Left mid - Kewell/Riise/Warnock/Cheyrou vs Yossi/Babel/Riera. Well, not much can be said for either I guess. Kewell produced the odd performance, Riise did a job there but his thunderous left peg wasn't enough to make up for the rest of his shortcomings, Warnock was an ok 3rd choice, and Cheyrou - well, the less said the better. Yossi is horrible on the left, Riera ok, Babel woefully inconsistent and nowhere near enough passion. Let's call this one a draw

Forward - Heskey/Baros/Cisse/Pongolle/Mellor vs Gerrard/Torres/Ngog. Now, obviously Gerrard-Torres pisses over virtually any partnership there is, but it's what happens if (or should that be when) one gets injured. Suddenly Gerrard-Ngog doesn't look quite as appealing, does it? Squad-wise, Ged's team was much more complete in this department, if not actually better when everyone is fit.

So whose was the healthier squad in a healthier position? Rafa's is like a supermodel - looks great from the right angles, but is a bit anorexic and anaemic underneath, Ged's is more girl next door - nothing spectacular about it, but it won't die just because it catches a cold

 

[Oncy]

Carragher recently said in an interview that the treble side was the best he played in.
Nothing to do with legacy, but interesting ntl.

 

[justdoit]

[quote author=singlerider link=topic=40459.msg1113274#msg1113274 date=1275659975]

Dudek-free (7/07) Reina
Kirkland-3.5m(10/07) Cavalieri
Carra Carra
Babbel(?)-free(7/04) Agger
Finnan-undisclosed(8/08) Johnson
Henchoz-free(1/05) Skrtel
Hyypia-free (7/09) Kyrgiakos
Otsembor-free(7/05) Darby
Riise-4m(7/08) Insua
Traore-2m(8/06) Degen
Vignal-free(7/05) Kelly
Warnock-1.5(1/07) Ayala
Cheyrou-undisclosed(6/06) Riera
Biscan-free(7/05) Lucas
Diao-free(1/07) Plessis
Hamaan-free(7/06) Mascher
Gerrard Gerrard
Murphy-2.5m(8/04) Aqualani
Kewell-free(7/08) Babel
Le Tallec-undisclosed(7/08) Maxi
Partridge-free(7/05) Pacheco
Potter Spearing
Welsh-player ex (1/06) El Zhar
Smicer-free (6/05) Yossi
Heskey-6.25 (7/04) Ngog
Baros-6.5m(8/05) Torres
Cisse-6m (7/07)
Mellor-0.5m(8/06)
Pongolle-2.7m(5/07)

[/quote]

http://www.lfchistory.net/stats_transfers_by_manager.asp?list=Get&manager_id=20&InOut=0&submit1=Submit

I really wont argue with u player by player. Some people take 31 years old didi over mascher, did anyone try to buy him for a substantial fee much less 30m(discount the inflation however u want)? some people take smicer over yossi, did reining champions bid for him for any fee? For me, the transfer fee is a valuation much more objective than fans personal opinions.

I listed above ged squad transfer fee and the date they left. That's how professional clubs valued them. What did they do after leaving the club. Did any of them flourish in the top clubs. Then take a look at rafa's squad and guess-imate their transfer value. Would any of them walk in a top club and contribute?

For me, the higher money value of the squad, the healthier it is. I guess an average manager could easily buy good quality depth/squad players with money. It's top gems that are difficult to find.

[quote author=singlerider link=topic=40459.msg1113274#msg1113274 date=1275659975]
So whose was the healthier squad in a healthier position? Rafa's is like a supermodel - looks great from the right angles, but is a bit anorexic and anaemic underneath, Ged's is more girl next door - nothing spectacular about it, but it won't die just because it catches a cold
[/quote]

Supermodels get u wealthy husband and a lot of money when u got dumped, something exciting when u know how to use the $$$. Girl next door get u stable life but going nowhere. To each his own I guess. Some people value UEFA cup + League cup over CL.....

 

[Oncy]

I think we can all relax a bit now we know how justdoit evaluates a squad.

 

[Hansern]

Can't believe how much dross we've picked up in recent years. Makes you think if we'd not bought 12 stop gaps and gone for 3-4 quality players.

 

[justdoit]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1113398#msg1113398 date=1275674235]
I think we can all relax a bit now we know how justdoit evaluates a squad.
[/quote]


yeah i value the squad according to how they are/were evaluated and subsequently paid by top managers of the world. of course a lot of posters here think they are all better. Unfortunately we are trying to attract top managers instead of scm members to manage our club. So in the mean time their opinions are just a little bit more "relevant".

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1113410#msg1113410 date=1275675167]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=40459.msg1113398#msg1113398 date=1275674235]
I think we can all relax a bit now we know how justdoit evaluates a squad.
[/quote]


yeah i value the squad according to how they are/were evaluated and subsequently paid by top managers of the world. of course a lot of posters here think they are all better. Unfortunately we are trying to attract top managers instead of scm members to manage our club. So in the mean time their opinions are just a little bit more "relevant".
[/quote]
I don't really know why I'm bothering with this but hey ho. If you only evaluate a squad based on the exit value of the players who inhabit it, does that mean that a team that keeps it's players until old age (ie-Costacurta, Maldini, Seedorf etc) they are less value to their manager than a team expensively assembled and sold on for a profit or at least for good sale value.
Actually don't answer, I don't care either way.

 

[Loch Ness Monster]

So because Hyypia went on a free, that means that other managers don't rate him = he is shit? Do yourself a favour, stop right now. And head back to RAWK.

 

[justdoit]

Isnt the whole argument about "which squad would be more attractive to top manager of the world"?

I guess they all want to manage owen instead of torres then!!!

Oh I answered it. now what?

 

[Vlads Quiff]

Players judged solely on the market value not the net-worth to the team, I gave up when I realised that was the criteria.
The discussion was the legacy that was left behind.



regards

 

[justdoit]

[quote author=Loch Ness Monster link=topic=40459.msg1113430#msg1113430 date=1275676174]
So because Hyypia went on a free, that means that other managers don't rate him = he is shit? Do yourself a favour, stop right now. And head back to RAWK.
[/quote]

I am 100% sure sami wont went on a free if we sold him in 2004. But at the age of 31 I am not sure his transfer value would be at the top of his career. For a new manager, I think agger might be more attractive. That's my opinion and where did I ever say he's shit? Do yourself a favor, start reading now.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1113434#msg1113434 date=1275676261]
Isnt the whole argument about "which squad would be more attractive to top manager of the world"?

I guess they all want to manage owen instead of torres then!!!

Oh I answered it. now what?
[/quote]Nadir.

 

[manwithnoname]

Quite simple: trophies won

Benitez comes out on top - just- because the European Cup is far superior to any trophy Houllier won

Both can be proud of what they have achieved, but neither were quite good enough

 

[Vlads Quiff]

The other point I would like to chuck into the mix is this.
It seems that the end result is not too far away from the other, there is some argument as to some individuals, but there is little argument that Ged had the strength in depth.
Who had the worst squad to work with when they arrived? Who improved the squad and the club the most, and if Ged had inherited a squad equal to the one that he left, or the one Rafa left, would he have achieved more?


regards

 

[Vlads Quiff]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40459.msg1113450#msg1113450 date=1275677393]
Quite simple: trophies won

Benitez comes out on top - just- because the European Cup is far superior to any trophy Houllier won

Both can be proud of what they have achieved, but neither were quite good enough
[/quote]

Ahh good you are back

regards

 

[manwithnoname]

*wink*

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40459.msg1113450#msg1113450 date=1275677393]
Quite simple: trophies won

Benitez comes out on top - just- because the European Cup is far superior to any trophy Houllier won

Both can be proud of what they have achieved, but neither were quite good enough
[/quote]

Brief and bang on. It's exciting but a bit terrifying about what's gonna happen next.

 

[singlerider]

[quote author=justdoit link=topic=40459.msg1113303#msg1113303 date=1275665683]
For me, the higher money value of the squad, the healthier it is. I guess an average manager could easily buy good quality depth/squad players with money. It's top gems that are difficult to find.
[/quote]

Really?

I don't see how that's a valid judgement on the state of the squad, unless the intention is to become a selling club.

Surely it's better to judge its health on what it is capable of achieving, how good the players are and how good the overall squad is?

Ah well, maybe it's just me . . .

 

[spider-Neil]

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opinion/columnists/brian-reade/Why-Rafa-Benitez-leaves-Liverpool-as-a-legend-not-the-failure-his-history-rewriting-critics-insist-The-Brian-Reade-Column-article448527.html


Right to the end the professional pundits failed to understand why so many Liverpudlians stayed loyal to Rafa Benitez.

As 500 fans marched on Anfield after his departure, chanting the Spaniard’s name, heads shook at a footballing sub-species bracketed *somewhere between romantic die-hards and mawkish morons.

To the “expert†eye, these deluded fools had been conned by Benitez’s cunning and blinded to his failings by the glory of Istanbul and the *criminal incompetence of the American owners.

Liverpool fans they said, once among the most knowledgeable in the world, had clearly lost touch with the modern reality, and were now a sad throwback to the days when sideburned men kicked orange balls.

Well, I’d argue one of the saddest aspects of modern *football is too many pundits, including ex-players, have not paid to watch a game since those orange ball days. And they’ve lost touch with the fan.

I’m not saying Benitez had to stay. The results and the football last year were shocking, he’s been a major player in Anfield’s destructive civil war, and the number of fans disillusioned with his style and methods was growing.

But to paint his six-year reign as an unmitigated disaster, sustained only by the over-sentimentalising of Istanbul, is analysis at its most skewed and cringeful. By 2004 Liverpool had been relegated to the status of European also-rans. Benitez made the club a genuine world force again.

It wasn’t just that 2005 *Champions League win (which is shamelessly downplayed as a fluke despite beating Fabio Capello’s Juventus, Jose Mourinho’s Chelsea and Carlo Ancelotti’s AC Milan). Or reaching the 2007 Champions League final and the 2008 semi-final. It wasn’t even UEFA elevating Liverpool to Europe’s top-seeded club due to results under Benitez.

It was beating Real Madrid and Inter Milan at the Bernabeu and San Siro (which the Reds had never before done) and Barcelona at the Nou Camp. Magical victories at the very top of world football, which restored long-overdue respect to Liverpudlian hearts.

Ah say the experts, but he didn’t win the league. True. But he got closer than any Liverpool boss in the past 20 years. A season ago he was a whisker away, taking the highest number of points by a runner-up in a 38-game season and the club’s best points haul since 1988.

And he did so despite having the 5th highest wage bil *in the league, the 5th *costliest squad, the 5th biggest stadium capacity and a net annual transfer spend of £15million. Which should have made experts ask why Liverpool were ever considered a nailed-on top four side under Benitez, especially when the boardroom was mired in anarchy.

Ah, they say, but he’d long lost the players and the board. So why have Steven Gerrard, Fernando Torres, Daniel Agger, Dirk Kuyt and Pepe Reina signed new long-term contracts within the past year? Why last August did managing director Christian Purslow do interviews purring over Benitez and how he was integral to the club’s future?

Ah, the experts say, but that was before he let Xabi Alonso go, which everyone could see was a calamity. These would be the same experts who, for the previous couple of seasons, claimed Liverpool were a two-man team. With Alonso (on whom Benitez turned a £20million profit) never being mentioned as one of those two.

Ah, they say, but Torres apart, he only signed sub-standard dross and ended up with a shockingly-weak squad. Really?

Liverpool are sending 12 players (13 if you count Milan Jovanovic whose Bosman signing is going through) to the World Cup. Or an entire team: Reina, Carragher, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Babel, Gerrard, Mascherano, Rodriguez, Kuyt, Torres. Subs: Kyrgiakos, Jovanovic.

Eleven Chelsea players flew out to South Africa, the same number as Arsenal, and Manchester United sent eight. Does that look like he’s left Anfield bare of talent?

The truth is Benitez leaves a squad worth many times more than the one he inherited, despite spending less in the past three transfer windows than he’s brought in.

I don’t seek to rewrite history or airbrush Benitez’s *failings. I saw last year’s football and it stank. I felt the growing anger among players and fans at his single-mindedness and knew something had to give.

Which is why it may be best for all concerned that he walks on. But now he has, let’s do him the honour of getting his legacy right.

Rafa Benitez was many things at Liverpool but unlike every manager since Kenny Dalglish, he was not a failure. Indeed a majority of *Liverpudlians will remember him as a legend.

Because like Bill Shankly, on more days and nights than those expert pundits ever care to recall, he made the people happy. a

5th highest wage bill, ros. I knew that guardian piece was inaccurate

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Brendan link=topic=40459.msg1113450#msg1113450 date=1275677393]
Quite simple: trophies won

Benitez comes out on top - just- because the European Cup is far superior to any trophy Houllier won

Both can be proud of what they have achieved, but neither were quite good enough
[/quote]

I agree with both statements although I will add gh was given a season to turn things around whilst rafa was not, anyway, what's done is done.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

Great piece by Brian Reade + he's right about Rafa, he will be remembered by most LFC fans as a legend.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=40459.msg1113659#msg1113659 date=1275723167]


And he did so despite having the 5th highest wage bil *in the league, the 5th *costliest squad, the 5th biggest stadium capacity and a net annual transfer spend of £15million.


[/quote]

.....but finished 7th.