Sunlit Uplands
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I have tried for some time to understand at least the main parts of UK politics. It is not easy.
There are waves of populism across several western democracies, with the working class and lower middle class abandoning the parties on the left. Parties that of course partially left them behind as they moved towards the centre. Seems the same in the UK.
We have this in Norway too, but with more political parties, the picture is a bit more nuanced and I have to say, understandable. For instance we have a populist party on the right which caters to the uneducated and easily led, often older people, but has nothing to do with conservatism, they are just progressive, populist liberals, with traces of nationalism and anti-immigration.
The media influence must be incredibly strong, if it can maintain peoples trust and belief after such a mess that Brexit has caused, remainer or not, now that the full effects are manifesting themselves in peoples daily lives. Of course, there is a war in Eastern Europe amplifying the crisis, which I guess provides a wonderful decoy for the government. Any possible leading figure on the so-called left is dismantled and smeared, as people buy the media campaigns, yes.
But now, with all the shit hitting the fan after Brexit and Boris, poverty increase and people cannot pay for the basics, are people still blind? That is what I cannot really fathom.
Does old tribalism play a role? The "immigrants stealing our jobs" divide and conquer? Why does this false consciousness continue?
There are waves of populism across several western democracies, with the working class and lower middle class abandoning the parties on the left. Parties that of course partially left them behind as they moved towards the centre. Seems the same in the UK.
We have this in Norway too, but with more political parties, the picture is a bit more nuanced and I have to say, understandable. For instance we have a populist party on the right which caters to the uneducated and easily led, often older people, but has nothing to do with conservatism, they are just progressive, populist liberals, with traces of nationalism and anti-immigration.
The media influence must be incredibly strong, if it can maintain peoples trust and belief after such a mess that Brexit has caused, remainer or not, now that the full effects are manifesting themselves in peoples daily lives. Of course, there is a war in Eastern Europe amplifying the crisis, which I guess provides a wonderful decoy for the government. Any possible leading figure on the so-called left is dismantled and smeared, as people buy the media campaigns, yes.
But now, with all the shit hitting the fan after Brexit and Boris, poverty increase and people cannot pay for the basics, are people still blind? That is what I cannot really fathom.
Does old tribalism play a role? The "immigrants stealing our jobs" divide and conquer? Why does this false consciousness continue?
Ah, I see. Well, the old are numerous, and they do vote, in contrast to the young who have become disillusioned and do not see the point of engaging.
But don't many enough feel betrayed and misled during the Brexit debacle, and want to fuck the Tories off?
Well, those old one's yes, but what about the rest who are struggling, those who don't have cushy pensions?
There's a sense of shame, so it's difficult to even talk about. If you talk about Brexit in the pub people just start gazing into their pints shaking their heads, like I imagine younger Germans did in the back half of last century. The people who engineered it fall into two camps. On the one hand you've got all the loud weirdos in the gutter press still moaning about foreigners, and on the other you've got apologetic sheep, full of buyer's remorse who don't want to think about it anymore.
That is interesting. The element of shame and remorse, and I can understand it being a factor.
And it is too early for swallowing price and making a u-turn back into the EU-fold, both on a personal and governmental level. Well, I am not sure the EU would entertain it publicly just yet, but unofficially they would cheer.
And it is too early for swallowing price and making a u-turn back into the EU-fold, both on a personal and governmental level. Well, I am not sure the EU would entertain it publicly just yet, but unofficially they would cheer.
A mate told me that 78% of UK MP's are millionaires.
I mean, England has been ruled by the upper class for hundreds of years, and you still have that ridiculous House of Lords, but surely that cannot be right?
It would go a long way to explain why many are disillusioned and do not vote. And also how you are fucked.
I mean, England has been ruled by the upper class for hundreds of years, and you still have that ridiculous House of Lords, but surely that cannot be right?
It would go a long way to explain why many are disillusioned and do not vote. And also how you are fucked.
Best thing about the Farage business is how the lefties have gone into bat for the Banks. Hilarious. Ultimate socialists defending the ultimate capitalists!
Private companies blah blah, should be allowed to open and close accounts at will without explanation (e.g based on interpretation of social media) blah blah, upstanding moral arbiters (don't agree with our 'values' - you're out) blah blah, fuck Farage and anyone else affected ('cos I never will be because I'm nice and well educated) - Gina Miller case - ultra-Remainer oops!!
Kept straight faces as well.
Forgot the old adage -what goes around, comes around.
Private companies blah blah, should be allowed to open and close accounts at will without explanation (e.g based on interpretation of social media) blah blah, upstanding moral arbiters (don't agree with our 'values' - you're out) blah blah, fuck Farage and anyone else affected ('cos I never will be because I'm nice and well educated) - Gina Miller case - ultra-Remainer oops!!
Kept straight faces as well.
Forgot the old adage -what goes around, comes around.
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Educate yourself. I think that's the phrase.
So, you voted for Brexit, I gather?
Would you share what your reasons were, and if you feel differently about it now, compared to when the voting was held?
Afraid you missed the point entirely JJ.
It's absolutely relevant.
It's happened and already happens regularly and no one gave a crap.
It happened to the man of the people and its hit the headlines and column inches.
The freedom of speech and freedom of human rights etc only counts when it suits.
Otherwise it's quite easy to ignore when the other side want some of that same cake.
No doubt, she is right up there, even among today's loathsome bunch. However, in living memory, we had Powell, Heath, Prior, Jenkin, Maudling, Rippon, St John Stevas, Thatcher, Whitelaw, Hurd, Britten, Pym, Biffen, Mellor, Lawson, Ridley, Lamont, Gummer, Major, Tebbitt, Chalker, Nott, Joseph, Clarke, Bottomley, Parkinson, Baker, Boyson, Howard, Rifkind, Heseltine, Howe, Currie, Portillo, Aitken, Shephard, Soames, Widdecombe, Lilley, Hague, Blair, Prescott, Straw, Hoon, Blunkett, Mandelson and Primarolo - a veritable Who's Who of some of the worst we've had to endure. Most of them Tories, natch, but Labour have had a few also.
As you say, there are probably plenty of twats who would vote for her again tomorrow, or anyone else wearing a blue rosette. I seriously think that there should be some sort of competency test before anybody is allowed near a polling booth. Too many fuckheads believe the lies fed to them by these bastards and the media barons who support them.
As you say, there are probably plenty of twats who would vote for her again tomorrow, or anyone else wearing a blue rosette. I seriously think that there should be some sort of competency test before anybody is allowed near a polling booth. Too many fuckheads believe the lies fed to them by these bastards and the media barons who support them.
Until they fall down the stairs, break a hip then spend 48 hours in a hospital corridor.
The guy who's missed the point is the one you see in the mirror every morning. None of that bears the remotest relevance to the question whether Coutts acted properly or not. The fact that they've now offered Farage his account back shows they themselves realise that they're on a loser.
There have been some studies on it (usually based on polls or turnout compared to age/ethnicity etc profiles of constituencies), but I don't recall seeing actual, solid figures.
It's a tough thing to do entirely accurately, but certainly not impossible
Hopefully jexy will take up your invitation in his own good time. Meanwhile I'd like to do so.
My main reason always was, and remains now, the preservation of my democratic rights. I want what happens in my country to be decided by people I can vote out at the next election if necessary, not by unelected civil servants abroad about whom, and about whose decisions, I can do naff all. It was always obvious that such a big change would bring teething problems with it, but to me that was and still is a price worth paying for retaining a meaningful vote on my own future. Voting for MEPs doesn't fit that description BTW, and if you don't believe me you may want to check with Jean-Claude Juncker, the immediate past president of the EU Commission who, a couple of years or so before he left office, got into a public spat with the then Speaker of the European Parliament when he said it's the Commission in Brussels which takes the important decisions.
The extent to which, if at all, current difficulties can accurately be attributed to Brexit is far from clear anyway, with so much else going on and given how countries entirely unconcerned with Brexit are suffering in a similar way. Contrary to the impression Remainers try to give, both sides of the debate have been economical with the truth over the years. We were told over 800,000 jobs would disappear as the result of a Leave vote, should there be one - hasn't happened. We were told the City of London would lose its position as a vital world financial centre - hasn't happened. We were told Nissan would pull out of their big car plant in Sunderland - not only has that not happened either, they've doubled down on their investment there and it's now one of their World Regional Hubs.
I found this, which has some very general information about how many and who they were in 2017:
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50393317
The statements from some of the people on the street are also quite telling.
I think one hypothesis is that there would be more votes for the other parties, excluding the big two, as it would reflect their disillusionment with the establishment.
I voted for Remain which you'd know if you had done a little research.
I was able to accept the result though. Spending years trying to overturn it and seizing on every negative headline since I regard as a wasted effort.
The best way to overturn it I've always thought was to campaign for it; but it seems the political parties capable of winning an election don't have the guts.
That doesn't really work for me though. I don't believe that a huge number of the non-voters are not doing so because they just don't like what is on offer. Most constituencies have more than the 2 main parties.
There will be some who consider it not worth it because of the voting system, and that's fair, but even they are in the minority, especially when you consider that Brexit (only two options) only had 72% turnout.
Some people simply are not engaged and don't care. They just get on with their lives and don't really pay attention.
It stands to reason that if those people WERE engaged and DID pay attention, they would probably vote in a similar way to those who do.
I also voted remain. If there was another referendum I would probably vote to rejoin, but it would depend on the terms.
I do hope that eventually there will be a sensible debate about it. I won't hold my breath. Sensible debate in UK politics doesn't happen much.
You are right about the parties. I don't even think the Lib Dems are currently committed to rejoining.
