Sorry, I can only find the avg. positions for individual games.
Our 8 games this season:
Tactical adjustments
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Sorry, I can only find the avg. positions for individual games.
Our 8 games this season:
This is awesome Binny - cheers mate !
It also highlights what I suspected - that Diaz and Mane's average positions are virtually identical and that Diaz is not playing any wider (on average) or higher/lower up the pitch than Mane did.
(League data)
Diaz 22/23 (6 app) & 21/22 (13 app)
Mane 21/22 (34 app), 20/21 (35 app), 19/20 (35 app)
Very detailed analysis here: https://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2022/09/writing-liverpool-style-shift-eye-test-versus-stats/
A snippet:
[article]Liverpool are adopting a) less pressures and b) in less areas, so the drop in pressures is not contained within one specific area such as the final third.
Last year, we were above the league average from the halfway line and then continued to increase above the league average the higher up the pitch you go. While the same is true with this season’s lines you can clearly see we are worse off across every 16(ish) yard vertical.
Dan Kennett highlighted this in his comparison with this season’s fixtures and the 2021/22 season equivalent results:
[/article]
A snippet:
[article]Liverpool are adopting a) less pressures and b) in less areas, so the drop in pressures is not contained within one specific area such as the final third.
Last year, we were above the league average from the halfway line and then continued to increase above the league average the higher up the pitch you go. While the same is true with this season’s lines you can clearly see we are worse off across every 16(ish) yard vertical.
Dan Kennett highlighted this in his comparison with this season’s fixtures and the 2021/22 season equivalent results:
[/article]
I find all these tweets, quotes and whatever maddening because I've been saying for years that we've neglected succession planning and investment in the team (as have others) and now all of a sudden when it's completely blown up in our faces it's all like "oh, we might need to do something". Yeah, no fucking shit. That's why I kinda struggle to post right now because there is an element of what's the point... there are next to no alternatives to re-invent / reshuffle the team with.
But anyways... if we're talking tactics, here are my limited thoughts.
We basically have two options to lay the foundations:
In terms of the press, the guys we relied on to outwork and press the opposition to death are either past it, injured or no longer here and their replacements are either different types of players or just not quite up to it yet.
I agree with a lot of what dmish said about Elliot and Diaz. Elliot has a lot of good qualities but to be effective as we were, we need a Henderson / Wijnaldum type and he just isn't offering us that right now. That right side just doesn't work without someone providing effective cover. Similarly, Diaz has been a highlight, but he drifts in and out of games and is nowhere near as effective at pressing and providing defensive cover as Mane was.
So what do we do? Carry on trying to flog a dead horse? I don't know. I think we need a rethink here.
For me, the most obvious short-term starting point is dropping deeper. I'm not saying we should be positioned on the edge of our box but drop a bit deeper and start by addressing by the ridiculous number of high quality chances we give up every game. It's very hard going into games knowing you're going to concede at least once.
As we don't really have any workhorses in midfield - we have passers and a couple of pseduo #10 types, but they're not good enough and / or in sync enough to dominate on quality alone. I'd reduce the focus on the press high up the pitch and instead rely on our ability to win it back a little bit deeper.
I'd hope that a byproduct of that would be that a bit more space opens up behind the opposition that would allow us to utilise the strengths of our attackers which is pace and running power. Diaz, Salah and Nunez all thrive on space and we need to find a way to give it to them. Teams would also be a lot more wary of committing men forward when they're worried about those guys hitting them on the break - just as teams used to be when we first got Salah and Mane and we were regularly destroying teams on the break - which would hopefully in turn make it easier to win the ball back with superior numbers.
Another left field option is to admit the midfield is fucked and sacrifice a midfielder for a defender when we have fit defenders.
----------------- Alisson
------Konate --- Matip ---- VVD
TAA -------------------------Robertson
--------- Thiago -- Fabinho
--- Salah ------Nunez ------ Diaz
In this type of set up, instead of a midfielder / attacker providing cover for the fullbacks (a system that is currently fucked), it is the centre-backs with that role. Both Konate and VVD are pacy, strong and with excellent sense of positioning so in theory it could work. TAA and Robertson / Tsimikas are freed of some defensive responsibilities so can focus on their strengths which is providing width in attack. Thiago and Fabinho when fit and on form are a great partnership.
Has Klopp ever gone three at the back?
But anyways... if we're talking tactics, here are my limited thoughts.
We basically have two options to lay the foundations:
- Fix the press
This not only requires functioning and cohesive midfield and attack units but also for them to operate well together. Right now that looks like a faraway dream.
It's not just a case of numbers - which with injuries we're really struggling with - but time. As has been done to death, the oldies can't cut it anymore (consistently) and the we don't have the time to get the new guys like Diaz, Nunez and Elliot really to replicate what we've lost (assuming they even can).
- Drop deeper
I don't think addressing the high line is off the table. I'm sure - if my memory isn't failing me - that Klopp has brought the defence deeper in the past when he's had to. The press is fucked and if we can't fix that, we have to drop deeper. And it's not just the press that's fucked, it's the confidence, the mentality, whatever... whatever mojo we had, we've lost it for now. Dropping deeper would do a lot to alleviate the defence's stress of teams constantly getting in behind.
In terms of the press, the guys we relied on to outwork and press the opposition to death are either past it, injured or no longer here and their replacements are either different types of players or just not quite up to it yet.
I agree with a lot of what dmish said about Elliot and Diaz. Elliot has a lot of good qualities but to be effective as we were, we need a Henderson / Wijnaldum type and he just isn't offering us that right now. That right side just doesn't work without someone providing effective cover. Similarly, Diaz has been a highlight, but he drifts in and out of games and is nowhere near as effective at pressing and providing defensive cover as Mane was.
So what do we do? Carry on trying to flog a dead horse? I don't know. I think we need a rethink here.
For me, the most obvious short-term starting point is dropping deeper. I'm not saying we should be positioned on the edge of our box but drop a bit deeper and start by addressing by the ridiculous number of high quality chances we give up every game. It's very hard going into games knowing you're going to concede at least once.
As we don't really have any workhorses in midfield - we have passers and a couple of pseduo #10 types, but they're not good enough and / or in sync enough to dominate on quality alone. I'd reduce the focus on the press high up the pitch and instead rely on our ability to win it back a little bit deeper.
I'd hope that a byproduct of that would be that a bit more space opens up behind the opposition that would allow us to utilise the strengths of our attackers which is pace and running power. Diaz, Salah and Nunez all thrive on space and we need to find a way to give it to them. Teams would also be a lot more wary of committing men forward when they're worried about those guys hitting them on the break - just as teams used to be when we first got Salah and Mane and we were regularly destroying teams on the break - which would hopefully in turn make it easier to win the ball back with superior numbers.
Another left field option is to admit the midfield is fucked and sacrifice a midfielder for a defender when we have fit defenders.
----------------- Alisson
------Konate --- Matip ---- VVD
TAA -------------------------Robertson
--------- Thiago -- Fabinho
--- Salah ------Nunez ------ Diaz
In this type of set up, instead of a midfielder / attacker providing cover for the fullbacks (a system that is currently fucked), it is the centre-backs with that role. Both Konate and VVD are pacy, strong and with excellent sense of positioning so in theory it could work. TAA and Robertson / Tsimikas are freed of some defensive responsibilities so can focus on their strengths which is providing width in attack. Thiago and Fabinho when fit and on form are a great partnership.
Has Klopp ever gone three at the back?
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I think this is at the heart of everything. As our possession has increased, our goals have decreased. Which means other teams have become far too comfortable letting us have the ball. There's not enough hunting in packs, not enough movement off the ball, and no invention or risk-taking in our play. It's all become very ponderous and predictable. The brief flashes of brilliance in games have come when we've moved the ball quickly and incisively. That creates panic among defenders. Even if we lose the ball in those moments, these are the frantic situations that Klopp teams tend to profit from.
With regards to personnel, I think we're feeling the loss of Mane (both in terms of his goals and the pressing from the front). We're also missing Gini, who for all the ghost accusations, would immediately improve this midfield.
I completely agree with dmishra on Harvey, although I don't share his confidence that Harvey will adapt to the position - I just think he's too limited athletically. Sure, he could learn the positional awareness and tactical discipline, but he simply doesn't have the strength or dynamism to occupy such an important position in a Klopp midfield. At least not without a change in formation. To be honest, I really struggle to find a starting berth for him in this team. His best work is done closer to goal, but he's too immobile to replace Salah or Diaz, and will obviously never lead the line. He's very much in the traditional number 10 role for me, which Klopp doesn't play with. Harvey is undoubtedly a gifted player, but I think the formation needs to adapt to get the best out of him, otherwise I see him as an impact player off the bench.
Perhaps most importantly, as has been widely discussed, the team has become misshapen by Trent's forays infield. I think Klopp has indulged Pep with this idea for too long. It hasn't worked at all. Not only has it over-inflated Trent's ego, it's made him half the player he was. His defensive frailties have been exacerbated by him being even more out of position, and his offensive threat (which basically came from those whipped balls from out wide) has been all but eradicated. And crucially, it's crippled Salah. Salah in his prime had the luxury of Trent overlapping constantly, creating havoc and space for him to come inside and work his magic. He's now having to deal with an opposition that can double up on him safe in the knowledge that there's no one coming outside of him. Coupled with a lack of support from our midfield, he's being completely outnumbered.
It's not a case of reinventing ourselves - it's a case of rediscovering what made us so good in the first place.
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Those stats backup what a lot of people have already been saying.
He’s such a contrast to whoever we’ve played rcm previously with Klopp, the job would’ve been mostly to run your nuts off up and down the pitch, and provide cover for Trent but Elliott isn’t that player. He’s a good player but this is another little complication that might be adding to our woes.
He’s such a contrast to whoever we’ve played rcm previously with Klopp, the job would’ve been mostly to run your nuts off up and down the pitch, and provide cover for Trent but Elliott isn’t that player. He’s a good player but this is another little complication that might be adding to our woes.
Do you see now what a fucking disaster it would be playing Trent in midfield?
Anyway, this is all starting to sound like the problem we have is moving a way from dull and functional towards a more expansive and creative midfield - while at the same time rebuilding the forward line.
Anyway, this is all starting to sound like the problem we have is moving a way from dull and functional towards a more expansive and creative midfield - while at the same time rebuilding the forward line.
I read all the posts again. What an excellent thread this has been starting with a cracking opening post from @dmishra followed by great contributions from a number of others. The only place where I slightly disagree with the original post.
"We can assume Ox and Keita are out forthe first half of the season" and hopefully out of this club.
"We can assume Ox and Keita are out for
I think it's a complication we really don't need, but no one here is saying what needs to be said, he is actually a right winger type player right for the front line ? - perhaps one of the things we need to do is play him there instead of Salah when we can ?
Totally agree on Paras : 1, 3, 4 & 5 !
However the continued retrospective of both Mane and Gini, by some, is simply viewing through rose-coloured glasses. To paraphrase Aldridge this week : get over it !
Last season Mane was very poor for the first half of the season and most on here were calling for his head, that reversed in the 2nd when Salah's head went on the block and Mane was seemingly our saviour.
The PL is a much tougher league than the BL and yet Mane's and Diaz's stats this season are very similar. It's certainly not Mane's goals we're missing, it's Salah's and IMO that's got little to nothing to do with Mane's absence.
Gini was in very much the same vein, he had passed his peak (he's 32 in a couple of months) and wasn't playing well, whilst most on here thought our team was clearly lacking in creativity with the midfield of Gini, Hendo & Fabs.
He made just 18 starts for PSG last season (ca. 1,500 mins - similar to the numbers Thiago posted, though for different reasons of course) and of course sadly he broke his leg a month ago so this season has played just 13 mins of Serie A football.
However it's still fair to say we got rid at the right time & Thiago is a huge step up in terms of creativity in the LM slot - if only he'd stay fit, but that's the downside, a much better player but we need to have adequate cover and with Keita's sick notes we have clearly lacked a good player there whenever Thiago has been injured.
I'm not suggesting they were indispensable, or indeed at the peak of their powers. I'm just saying they were great athletes, well-versed in Klopp's methodology and fundamental to the way we play. It's not a criticism of allowing them to leave or of their replacements. It's merely an anknowledgement that the team is in transition, and naturally looks more disjointed without them.Totally agree on Paras : 1, 3, 4 & 5 !
However the continued retrospective of both Mane and Gini, by some, is simply viewing through rose-coloured glasses. To paraphrase Aldridge this week : get over it !
Last season Mane was very poor for the first half of the season and most on here were calling for his head, that reversed in the 2nd when Salah's head went on the block and Mane was seemingly our saviour.
The PL is a much tougher league than the BL and yet Mane's and Diaz's stats this season are very similar. It's certainly not Mane's goals we're missing, it's Salah's and IMO that's got little to nothing to do with Mane's absence.
Gini was in very much the same vein, he had passed his peak (he's 32 in a couple of months) and wasn't playing well, whilst most on here thought our team was clearly lacking in creativity with the midfield of Gini, Hendo & Fabs.
He made just 18 starts for PSG last season (ca. 1,500 mins - similar to the numbers Thiago posted, though for different reasons of course) and of course sadly he broke his leg a month ago so this season has played just 13 mins of Serie A football.
However it's still fair to say we got rid at the right time & Thiago is a huge step up in terms of creativity in the LM slot - if only he'd stay fit, but that's the downside, a much better player but we need to have adequate cover and with Keita's sick notes we have clearly lacked a good player there whenever Thiago has been injured.
EDIT: It's also worth noting that during the second half of last season (i.e. when we were actually any good), it wasn't Mane or Diaz, it was Mane and Diaz. Losing Mane's energy and tactical discipline from the front three has been a big blow IMO.
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Elliot needs to play in a 4-2-3-1 and not as one of the two sitting midfielders. Same goes for Carvahlo. If you are going to have more possession in the opposition third of the pitch it makes sense to have more players that are able to play their way through the likes rather than looking to sprint in behind.
Maybe that's the direction Klopp intends to take the team, it's was speculated initially that we would move to a double pivot when Thiago signed, as he played that role to phenomenal effect for Bayern. I'm not suggesting we build our midfield around Thiago given his age and injury record. However the type of players we are signing don't seem to fit our current 4-3-3 and I can't see how they ever will. Add to that building our midfield around Henderson now seems even more short term than Thiago.
Gini, Milner and Hendo were in some ways the perfect Klopp midfielders for the system of the last 4 years. But that system is no longer effective and largely neither are they. Great managers evolve their teams into something different when the time is right. Klopp never had that chance at Dortmund he couldn't hold his core in place to restructure and it collapsed. But it's clear now that the time for us to rebuild has become overdue. That doesn't just mean buying younger versions of the same players, I dont think that solves the peoblem.
I think this is absolutely bang on the money with our problem.
Ok - I’m going to expand upon one of my posts in another thread, ‘cause I did a bit of digging around and found a found a few other people more knowledgeable on tactics than me making similar points - namely it’s a systemic problem rather than primarily a personnel problem.
I think Klopp saw this season as one of significant tactical shift, which might explain a reluctance to bring in too many new players - as bedding in lots of newbies and trying to tweak tactics can be difficult - he knows the players and knows how to work with them - so it’s not like a new manager bringing in new players he’s previously worked with, etc
The “problems” start with Klopp trying to evolve our tactics and get closer to a Man City style of play in order to be able to break down the increasing numbers of opposition teams effectively deploying low blocks, etc.
I think Klopp is focused on using the “half space” better in attack - that space inbetween CB & FB.
The problem with our old system was. with our wide forwards coming inside all the time, it allowed teams to go narrow - we’ve seen it so many times, allowing us space out wide, safe in the knowledge our attackers were smaller than their CB’s, so the balance should be stacked in their favour to deal with a major of crosses.
To give @Donavan Ried some credit, when he warbles on about Salah being “found out”, he’s half right - it’s not Salah bring rumbled, it’s the system that was set up to exploit some of Salah’s key abilities that’s been found out.
We also saw it with Mane in the early part of last season before he moved into that central role and suddenly found a new lease of life.
So yes, I think Klopp has instructed Salah and Diaz to stay out wide to try and stretch opposition back four’s across the width of the pitch - they downside is that Salah is no longer getting in to the goalscoring positions he used to - so he hasn’t quite figured out how to evolve within the new structure.
Diaz, I’d say, is more used to staying out wide, so he’s adapting quicker to the change - no surprise then he’s looked better.
As I mentioned kin the previous thread - the two players that Klopp seems to want to operate in the half space are Thiago and Trent, which mirrors de Bruyne and Cancelo for City - albeit it on opposite flanks - with Cancelo pushing forward from LB.
You’ll note at City, Walker holds back more to provide defensive help - which I think is what Robbo is also doing - so the Right CB needs to be ready to cover in behind RB.
Robbo or The Greek are then making supporting runs on the left to help Diaz and make the triangle with Thiago in the left half space.
For what it’s worth - I think Carvalho is seen as the long term replacement for Thiago.
On the right side, because Trent is operating in the half space, Harvey needs to be the one out wide helping Salah - I’ve said before, that I see Harvey evolving into a Bernardo Silva / Foden type player that’s capable of operating out wide or in a mobile more central role linking trent & Salah and getting into the good attacking positions - in theory Kieta should be ideal for this… but he’s dead.
Harvey’s problem is his defensive and pressing work isn’t good enough - Silva is always nipping at players heels in that position.
The other part of this tactical change is the central striker - that’s why Nunez needs to be on his game - because he needs to be attacking the spaces inbetween CB’s and inbetween FB & CB - Thats’s why the wide players are staying out wide and stretching the FB’s and the CB’s have to make a choice to either support the FB or watch the creative midfielder attacking from deep in the half space.
I think Jota and his movement and ability to find space in the centre will be very important until Nunez beds in. The problem with Firmino is, he drops deep, which means no-ones in the centre because Salah & Diaz aren’t running inside as much.
In time maybe Nunez can start to offer a variant where he drags players out to the left and someone else pops into the centre.
Is say there are 3 or 4 attacking variants wS can deploy :-
- Old School with Firmino in the centre dropping deep and wide players running in behind
- new system with wide players staying out wide to allow Jota/Nunez space to exploit in the centre
- Jota & Nunez switching between left & centre to drag players about while Salah stays out on the right.
- Salah playing in the central role with Harvey wide right & Hendo sitting a little deeper on the right giving protection behind Trent attacking the half space high up.
It feels like we’re just not up to speed with the tactical shift and not confident enough to be able to switch between these either in game or from game to game - put that down to injuries more than anything.
Add to that we haven’t figured out how to press in the new system yet - again, no consistency in the midfield.
The short term solution, including sacrificing multiple first born to keep Thiago from dying again, would seem to be get Jota in the central role with Nunez coming off the bench regularly and potentially, if Arthur works out - get him into the right midfield role and taking over the half space attacking brief from Trent and getting a bit more balance in there.
I think Klopp saw this season as one of significant tactical shift, which might explain a reluctance to bring in too many new players - as bedding in lots of newbies and trying to tweak tactics can be difficult - he knows the players and knows how to work with them - so it’s not like a new manager bringing in new players he’s previously worked with, etc
The “problems” start with Klopp trying to evolve our tactics and get closer to a Man City style of play in order to be able to break down the increasing numbers of opposition teams effectively deploying low blocks, etc.
I think Klopp is focused on using the “half space” better in attack - that space inbetween CB & FB.
The problem with our old system was. with our wide forwards coming inside all the time, it allowed teams to go narrow - we’ve seen it so many times, allowing us space out wide, safe in the knowledge our attackers were smaller than their CB’s, so the balance should be stacked in their favour to deal with a major of crosses.
To give @Donavan Ried some credit, when he warbles on about Salah being “found out”, he’s half right - it’s not Salah bring rumbled, it’s the system that was set up to exploit some of Salah’s key abilities that’s been found out.
We also saw it with Mane in the early part of last season before he moved into that central role and suddenly found a new lease of life.
So yes, I think Klopp has instructed Salah and Diaz to stay out wide to try and stretch opposition back four’s across the width of the pitch - they downside is that Salah is no longer getting in to the goalscoring positions he used to - so he hasn’t quite figured out how to evolve within the new structure.
Diaz, I’d say, is more used to staying out wide, so he’s adapting quicker to the change - no surprise then he’s looked better.
As I mentioned kin the previous thread - the two players that Klopp seems to want to operate in the half space are Thiago and Trent, which mirrors de Bruyne and Cancelo for City - albeit it on opposite flanks - with Cancelo pushing forward from LB.
You’ll note at City, Walker holds back more to provide defensive help - which I think is what Robbo is also doing - so the Right CB needs to be ready to cover in behind RB.
Robbo or The Greek are then making supporting runs on the left to help Diaz and make the triangle with Thiago in the left half space.
For what it’s worth - I think Carvalho is seen as the long term replacement for Thiago.
On the right side, because Trent is operating in the half space, Harvey needs to be the one out wide helping Salah - I’ve said before, that I see Harvey evolving into a Bernardo Silva / Foden type player that’s capable of operating out wide or in a mobile more central role linking trent & Salah and getting into the good attacking positions - in theory Kieta should be ideal for this… but he’s dead.
Harvey’s problem is his defensive and pressing work isn’t good enough - Silva is always nipping at players heels in that position.
The other part of this tactical change is the central striker - that’s why Nunez needs to be on his game - because he needs to be attacking the spaces inbetween CB’s and inbetween FB & CB - Thats’s why the wide players are staying out wide and stretching the FB’s and the CB’s have to make a choice to either support the FB or watch the creative midfielder attacking from deep in the half space.
I think Jota and his movement and ability to find space in the centre will be very important until Nunez beds in. The problem with Firmino is, he drops deep, which means no-ones in the centre because Salah & Diaz aren’t running inside as much.
In time maybe Nunez can start to offer a variant where he drags players out to the left and someone else pops into the centre.
Is say there are 3 or 4 attacking variants wS can deploy :-
- Old School with Firmino in the centre dropping deep and wide players running in behind
- new system with wide players staying out wide to allow Jota/Nunez space to exploit in the centre
- Jota & Nunez switching between left & centre to drag players about while Salah stays out on the right.
- Salah playing in the central role with Harvey wide right & Hendo sitting a little deeper on the right giving protection behind Trent attacking the half space high up.
It feels like we’re just not up to speed with the tactical shift and not confident enough to be able to switch between these either in game or from game to game - put that down to injuries more than anything.
Add to that we haven’t figured out how to press in the new system yet - again, no consistency in the midfield.
The short term solution, including sacrificing multiple first born to keep Thiago from dying again, would seem to be get Jota in the central role with Nunez coming off the bench regularly and potentially, if Arthur works out - get him into the right midfield role and taking over the half space attacking brief from Trent and getting a bit more balance in there.
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OK... (This is not aimed at you @StevieM) When I feel that I have made a mistake I will admit to it, I am far form perfect in may assessment of things and I can see the your take on the Salah's lack of scoring goals holds a lot of water. the only real problem that I have (And again, This is not aimed at you), Is that when I point out that something is not right, (This is again not aimed at anyone in particular) Some people are so tribal in their view of the Club,Players and Manager that they are unwilling to see or entertain that there is a problem...
Love @StevieM take on the problem with Salah...Makes great sense....Nice one @StevieM
They go in training everyday, laughing, joking about, smiling, and the club media dept aren’t helping either by making silly, untimely videos about them clowning about.
But during post match interviews, they say things like 'we're angry, we can play better, blah blah blah'.
Winners, my arse. More like pansies to me.
But during post match interviews, they say things like 'we're angry, we can play better, blah blah blah'.
Winners, my arse. More like pansies to me.
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