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Is Lucas in the top 20 CM's in the Premiership ?

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[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405418#msg1405418 date=1317067992]
Answer me this then. How is it that he's been in the MOTM top three, voted for by posters on here partly, for the last two seasons and is in there now? How is it consecutive management setups continue to place faith in him? How is it Stevie Gerrard called him out as the player of the season last year? How is it the stats provided, no matter whether you regard them or not, rate him relatively highly? If he so 'fucking shite' how can all those things be wrong and some of you be so right? I never knew we had so many ex-players and managers on here who know better.
[/quote]

Our current management set-up pick him every week - they also spent nearly £80m on Carroll, Henderson, Adam & Downing - hardly a ringing endorsement. Rafa was stubborn, he signed Lucas and was determined to be proved correct. Hodgson was brainless and Kenny has yet to convince me that he has what it takes to get this talented squad into a top 4 position.

Don't start me on the LFC fans who vote for Lucas in MOM threads, sufficeth to say when I read their opinions I realise why I win so much money betting on football.
 
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47011.msg1405442#msg1405442 date=1317068722]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405433#msg1405433 date=1317068563]
[quote author=Atlas link=topic=47011.msg1405430#msg1405430 date=1317068453]
Parker is way better and available this summer, we should have got him even if he is 'old' he would have walked into the team and been there for at least 2 years enough time to buy a long term dm
[/quote]

But we didnt. So who would you play as a holding midfielder from those we have available
[/quote]

When we used to have this debate during the summer, quite a few people would argue he was good enough and that we didn't need another CM.


[/quote]

In context though it was fair to say other areas needed strengthening first and we had no idea we'd get rid of Raul which was a big mistake
 
I don't think we can afford to line up without a holding midfielder because our defence isn't good enough to cope and our attack isn't good enough to keep the pressure off the defence. Bit of a weird intertwined problem.

It is unfortunate that we've spent close to 40M on the midfield and defence in the summer and most seem to think that we need a CB and a DM as a priority. A RW wouldn't go amiss either.
 
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47011.msg1405446#msg1405446 date=1317068784]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405418#msg1405418 date=1317067992]
Answer me this then. How is it that he's been in the MOTM top three, voted for by posters on here partly, for the last two seasons and is in there now? How is it consecutive management setups continue to place faith in him? How is it Stevie Gerrard called him out as the player of the season last year? How is it the stats provided, no matter whether you regard them or not, rate him relatively highly? If he so 'fucking shite' how can all those things be wrong and some of you be so right? I never knew we had so many ex-players and managers on here who know better.
[/quote]

Our current management set-up pick him every week - they also spent nearly £80m on Carroll, Henderson, Adam & Downing - hardly a ringing endorsement. Rafa was stubborn, he signed Lucas and was determined to be proved correct. Hodgson was brainless and Kenny has yet to convince me that he has what it takes to get this talented squad into a top 4 position.

Don't start me on the LFC fans who vote for Lucas in MOM threads, sufficeth to say when I read their opinions I realise why I win so much money betting on football.
[/quote]

Yes we know Pesam, you win loads betting on footy. You must be truly wonderful at it. Tell me though, do you bet on individual player performances or lay off bets on results? Footy is one if the worst things to bet on as people tend to bet based on emotion
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405418#msg1405418 date=1317067992]
Answer me this then. How is it that he's been in the MOTM top three, voted for by posters on here partly, for the last two seasons and is in there now? How is it consecutive management setups continue to place faith in him? How is it Stevie Gerrard called him out as the player of the season last year? How is it the stats provided, no matter whether you regard them or not, rate him relatively highly? If he so 'fucking shite' how can all those things be wrong and some of you be so right? I never knew we had so many ex-players and managers on here who know better.
[/quote]

Vlad always explains the answer to the first question better than anyone else.

Stevie also made some horrendous comparison between Joe Cole and Messi.

You're reading way too much into the fact that he made a lot of tackles. Counting stats like that don't indicate whether he was good at something, they just indicate he did a lot of it. I'd be more interested in looking at the reason why he made a lot of tackles.

And really ... listen to the ex players on TV and tell me if you've ever learned a single thing about the game from them.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405451#msg1405451 date=1317069000]
[quote author=Pesam link=topic=47011.msg1405446#msg1405446 date=1317068784]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405418#msg1405418 date=1317067992]
Answer me this then. How is it that he's been in the MOTM top three, voted for by posters on here partly, for the last two seasons and is in there now? How is it consecutive management setups continue to place faith in him? How is it Stevie Gerrard called him out as the player of the season last year? How is it the stats provided, no matter whether you regard them or not, rate him relatively highly? If he so 'fucking shite' how can all those things be wrong and some of you be so right? I never knew we had so many ex-players and managers on here who know better.
[/quote]

Our current management set-up pick him every week - they also spent nearly £80m on Carroll, Henderson, Adam & Downing - hardly a ringing endorsement. Rafa was stubborn, he signed Lucas and was determined to be proved correct. Hodgson was brainless and Kenny has yet to convince me that he has what it takes to get this talented squad into a top 4 position.

Don't start me on the LFC fans who vote for Lucas in MOM threads, sufficeth to say when I read their opinions I realise why I win so much money betting on football.
[/quote]

Yes we know Pesam, you win loads betting on footy. You must be truly wonderful at it. Tell me though, do you bet on individual player performances or lay off bets on results? Footy is one if the worst things to bet on as people tend to bet based on emotion
[/quote]

Fuck off Sunny you arrogant cock, don't bother banning me - I'll see myself out.
 
[quote author=keniget link=topic=47011.msg1405448#msg1405448 date=1317068864]
I don't think we can afford to line up without a holding midfielder because our defence isn't good enough to cope and our attack isn't good enough to keep the pressure off the defence. Bit of a weird intertwined problem.

It is unfortunate that we've spent close to 40M on the midfield and defence in the summer and most seem to think that we need a CB and a DM as a priority. A RW wouldn't go amiss either.
[/quote]


We needed a DM but we didn't get around to buying one.


I'm still patient about RW. I'd like a proper one, but I am willing to give Henderson more time. He can cross a ball well. Even if he does constantly pull a face like he's farted and it's horrified him how much it stinks.


CB is difficult. Coates could turn out to be good, but we have to be a bit patient. Carra is no spring chicken, Skrtel is no world beater, and Agger just can't stay fit. We probably need another one of these, but we should hopefully manage the season. I wouldn't call it a priority.


DM is the priority and has been for a long fucking time.
 
[quote author=Atlas link=topic=47011.msg1405459#msg1405459 date=1317069229]
Stevie maybe?
[/quote]


I would probably play Gerrard-Adam, once Gerrard is fit.
 
Fucking hell

Why does Lucas make people menstrual? FFS lads
 
I still say.......and always will that some people just refuse to give Lucas credit because of his first few seasons with us. He is definitely in the top 20 center mids in the premier league for me. That was the original question and other than that and the fact that I think he's done exceptional work on his conditioning and has improved his overall game over the past 2 seasons thats all i'm mentioning because in the past its been pointless debating Lucas on here. The arguments been raging on for years and I think im just about ready to be done with it!
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405352#msg1405352 date=1317065396]
Oh and I've said countless times that if we have better than Lucas available in the DM role we should play them.
[/quote]

Yeah, and the same goes for all our players though.

He's far from our weakest player at present, but he's an easy target as his input isn't as easy to see, the same is almost always true for defensive midfielders.

I'd prefer if we concentrated on our weakest positions though, like attacking midfield(hopefully Gerrard will step in), centre back, second syrikwr, all of which we're currently weaker in.
 
1. Aaron Ramsey
2. Alex Song (DM)
3. Mikel Arteta
4. Stiliyan Petrov
5. Nigel Reo-Coker
6. Mark Davies
7. Ramires (DM)
8. Raul Meireles
9. Frank Lampard
10. Tim Cahill
11. Marouane Fellaini (DM)
12. Clint Dempsey
13. Steve Sidwell
14. Steven Gerrard
15. Vincent Kompany (DM)
16. Yaya Touré (DM)
17. Gareth Barry (as much a DM as Lucas)
18. James Milner
19. Nigel De Jong (DM)
20. Anderson (DM)
21. Phil Jones (Yep hes a better DM)
22. Tom Cleverley
23. Darren Fletcher (DM)
24. Michael Carrick

Darren Pratley (I like what I have seen and I trust Pesam's judgement)


I went through alphabetically, I got to the Scum, anyone want to continue.
 
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47011.msg1405496#msg1405496 date=1317073282]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405352#msg1405352 date=1317065396]
Oh and I've said countless times that if we have better than Lucas available in the DM role we should play them.
[/quote]

Yeah, and the same goes for all our players though.

He's far from our weakest player at present, but he's an easy target as his input isn't as easy to see, the same is almost always true for defensive midfielders.

I'd prefer if we concentrated on our weakest positions though, like attacking midfield(hopefully Gerrard will step in), centre back, second syrikwr, all of which we're currently weaker in.
[/quote]

Not one of those positions is weaker than DM.

AM: Maxi, Bellamy, Gerrard, Shelvey, Adam.
CB: Carra, Agger, Skrtel, Coates, Wilson, Kelly, Wisdom
Second Striker: Suarez, Gerrard, Kuyt, Bellamy

DM: Lucas, Spearing, Coady
 
Great. Not that I agree with a lot of that list but now do a list for better CMs than Adam, Spearing and Henderson. Whats that ? The list is even bigger ? Well I never
 
We haven't seen Henderson at CM; so we don't know.
Adam is a better CM than Lucas imo. Not the same style obviously, but much more influential; I can only imagine if he could run for 90 minutes or was taken off at the 60 minute mark.
The list for Spearing is much longer but that could just be because of the volume of work and the lack of chances. Spearing actually deserves the chance to get the experience Lucas now has id we don't buy a DM. Spearing looked a lot better last year than Lucas did 2-3 years ago and I think some of Lucas' best games came with Spearing as his partner.

I only did half the league though thats pretty astonishing. And yes there are 3-5 questionable ones which is why I put in extra.
 
Lucas is a DM as well though. He does not play as a CM. Adam is an undeniably better passer of the ball than Lucas but thats where it ends. Someone was moaning Lucas nearly got sent off on Saturday. Not a mention of Adam at Spurs though. If Lucas deserves criticism so be it but it should be fair across the board. Which its not. Thats my only real beef on the Lucas debate. I think its stereotyped bullshit to be honest
 
[quote author=Shelvey link=topic=47011.msg1405504#msg1405504 date=1317074302]
[quote author=Gerry_A_Trick link=topic=47011.msg1405496#msg1405496 date=1317073282]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405352#msg1405352 date=1317065396]
Oh and I've said countless times that if we have better than Lucas available in the DM role we should play them.
[/quote]

Yeah, and the same goes for all our players though.

He's far from our weakest player at present, but he's an easy target as his input isn't as easy to see, the same is almost always true for defensive midfielders.

I'd prefer if we concentrated on our weakest positions though, like attacking midfield(hopefully Gerrard will step in), centre back, second syrikwr, all of which we're currently weaker in.
[/quote]

Not one of those positions is weaker than DM.

AM: Maxi, Bellamy, Gerrard, Shelvey, Adam.
CB: Carra, Agger, Skrtel, Coates, Wilson, Kelly, Wisdom
Second Striker: Suarez, Gerrard, Kuyt, Bellamy

DM: Lucas, Spearing, Coady
[/quote]

AM: only ones actually AMs and fit, Adam, Shelvey who's not getting a look in, and at a stretch Maxi

CB: Carra and debatable Skrtel

Second Striker: Obviously Suarez is number one, so a Kuyt and Bellamy.

Ok maybe second striker isn't so bad, but we were also close to a disaster at eight back before Kelly got fit.

Lucas is nowhere near the worst of our current problems.
 
I don't think we are that far off. I don't think he is good enough, but he isn't irredeemably shit either. I would like to see Shelvey get a look in though.
 
not_this_shit_again_RE_Count_to_100_Revised-s480x552-220275.jpg
 
Sunny, give it up mate. 6CM will never forgive Lucas for being one of Rafa's fav's. Like you, I see a reasonable player who is still improving and is no shape or form in need of urgent replacement.

I'm more concerned about Henderson, Carroll & Carra although Carroll did play ok at the weekend. Henderson will be Kenny's Lucas & Carra is finished
 
I'd actually forgot about Shelvey but would like to see more of him, perhaps in a midfield 3. You know, if we had better options in central midfield, we may not need to play Lucas at all. I even think he could be better player further up the pitch. The problem is this - our CM options are not in a good state at the moment and, as such, I feel he has a part to play still until he can replaced with someone better. I'm really not fussed on Adam and Lucas combination at all though. If you take Lucas out and put someone else in - other than Gerrard I think it makes it worse. The problem is - if we play a formation with a DM in it then Lucas has to play as I simply do not believe there's anyone better in our squad currently in that position. That does not mean there is no better out there but the reality is we have what we have. We've let so many decent midfielders go over the last few seasons we should not be in this position but, until January, we are. That said, we're on a long road to recovery and things will take time to put right and to strentghen ALL the positions. We needed width and a left back in the summer. Those we're undeniable priorities which were addressed. Whether that was with the right players - well, the jury's out still. If we'd have known we'd lose Meireles though I'm sure we'd all have been crying out for another CM. I think we fucked up selling him to be honest but he wanted out.
 
[quote author=vantage link=topic=47011.msg1405522#msg1405522 date=1317076664]
Sunny, give it up mate. 6CM will never forgive Lucas for being one of Rafa's fav's. Like you, I see a reasonable player who is still improving and is no shape or form in need of urgent replacement.

I'm more concerned about Henderson, Carroll & Carra although Carroll did play ok at the weekend. Henderson will be Kenny's Lucas & Carra is finished
[/quote]

I'm giving up now as I'm going to bed ;) Laters
 
Lucas does put in some decent performances but usually they are ones in which he puts in shit loads of effort and does alot of the destructive things , tackling , breaking up play etc . Ok some will argue that's all he's in there to do but that's shite ...he needs to offer more all round and be alot more consistant in what he does .

Ok it's not the best way or sytem to judge a player at all but if you (reluctantly ) acknowldege United , City and Chelsea a little behind , as the best teams in the league and where we want to be , would Lucas get into their teams regularly ? I very much doubt it . So why should he get into ours ?

Right at this moment though I would agree that we have other concerns that need fixing before lucas ...but long term I really hope we can get better .
 
[quote author=motey22 link=topic=47011.msg1405370#msg1405370 date=1317065926]
Nothing like `fans` getting behind their team
[/quote]

I can't stand this "super fan" mentality . That if you don't blindly support the team, sing til you drop or dare to criticise something then you are less of a fan . We all want the team to do well but if something is obviously wrong then why do i have to stick my head in the sand and pretend it isn't ? .
 
[quote author=RedZeppelin link=topic=47011.msg1405532#msg1405532 date=1317080293]
[quote author=motey22 link=topic=47011.msg1405370#msg1405370 date=1317065926]
Nothing like `fans` getting behind their team
[/quote]

I can't stand this "super fan" mentality . That if you don't blindly support the team, sing til you drop or dare to criticise something then you are less of a fan . We all want the team to do well but if something is obviously wrong then why do i have to stick my head in the sand and pretend it isn't ? .

[/quote]

Ignore him mate. Clearly either a WUM or someone so thick they cannot understand the point of forums.

Wasting your time.
 
I could give Kenny4PM a big wet kiss right now...



Thank you! I thought i was losing my marbles, because everyone else seemed to be of the opinion that Lucas is one of the better players in the squad and one of the first names on the team sheet. There was a thread here that was asking for people's opinion on number of games each player would play......i was gobsmacked after reading some of the posts.
 
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