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Is Lucas in the top 20 CM's in the Premiership ?

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[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=47011.msg1405542#msg1405542 date=1317084313]
[quote author=RedZeppelin link=topic=47011.msg1405532#msg1405532 date=1317080293]
[quote author=motey22 link=topic=47011.msg1405370#msg1405370 date=1317065926]
Nothing like `fans` getting behind their team
[/quote]

I can't stand this "super fan" mentality . That if you don't blindly support the team, sing til you drop or dare to criticise something then you are less of a fan . We all want the team to do well but if something is obviously wrong then why do i have to stick my head in the sand and pretend it isn't ? .

[/quote]

Ignore him mate. Clearly either a WUM or someone so thick they cannot understand the point of forums.

Wasting your time.
[/quote]
Have to agree.
If people can point their fingers at you and tell you that you're wrong about something negative you write, I do believe you have the right to bring attention to it again if it later on becomes apparent that you've been right all along.
This is called gloating by some but is it really?
 
As per fucking usual those who can't identify a footballer if he doesn't barnstorm into a thunderous tackle, slide about on his arse or bang in a 30 yard screamer don't rate Lucas.

English football is littered with this bollocks. It's why England hasn't won a thing in 50 fucking years. A footballer who wins possession without wailing about on his hole and then KEEPS it. Every time.

He plays in midfield for the most famous footballing country in the world, but thats not enough for the self-acclaimed "most knowledgable fans in football".

Jesus fucking cunting wept cunt.
 
The Lucas subject baffles me. Lucas plays as DM for us. He has been pigeon holed into this position and fair play to him for keeping his head down and adjusting to the role. He is the best DM we have at the club, end of. Gerrard is million times better as an all round player but mightn't have the discipline to just carry out the role of a DM. Also do we want to stifle his game by having him as a holding midfielder? We need to Gerrard to express himself and win games for us. We don't want him covering the full backs and acting as the water carrier. He has a few years left in him as Captain fantastic as we need him helping out in attack.

Lucas is a better DM than Jay. Shelvey (who I really rate) hasn't shown in his limited time here that he's an out and out DM so currently Lucas is better. Adam wouldn't have the discipline to act as a DM and he isn't that mobile either so it would be a case of square pegs in round holes. I often bash Adam but he's helped us in an attacking sense. Two goals and three assists in 6 games isn't shabby. It seems Lucas is only as good as his last game on here. He was excellent against Bolton and not a word was said and now people want him off the team?

I've read we don't need a DM. Ross I think made a point that United don't use one, yeah that's fair enough but it's Man United. They have the best defense in the league. Rock solid defense, strong, mobile and pacy. I have a load of good close friends who support united so i'm often exposed to their games. For years I've heard them lambaste Carrick, Anderson, Gibson et all. They've told me Carrick offers nothing but you know what they get away with it. Carrick might shuffle around the pitch giving the ball to the better player but having a devastating attack, wingers and defense allows them the luxury to play jobbers as a midfield two. Didn't they beat Arsenal in the cup last season with a midfield duo of O' Shea and Gibson?

We don't have a rock solid defense at the mo so we definitely need a player who will be disciplined and play as a holding midfielder. Now if John Henry wants to give us money for a destroyer ala Mascherano or Yan M'Villa or whoever is a good DM these days then great. Kenny decided we didn't need one and that Lucas is up for the job so that's the cock we have to piss with. I'm not going down the super fan route but if he's so crap then how is he fooling so many managers? He does play for Brazil for fuck sake. People will counter it by saying Brazil are on the decline and there's fuck all midfielders in their squad at the mo but that's bullshit. He's playing on merit for a side ranked in the top ten in the world because he's willing to play as a holding midfielder and allow other's express themselves AND because he's a good player. He is clearly in the top 20 DM's in the premiership. To see Nigel Reo Coker in a list of players better than him must be some sort of joke? Steve fucking Sidwell aswel? Come on people.

Off the top of my head The best DM's who actually play as DM's in the league are De Jong, Parker (who is an all rounder) and maybe Song. Yaya Screech and Essien have shown they can play the defensive roll if needed and of course Gerrard who in my opinion could play left back if he wanted to.

For interest sake who are the best DM's in the world? Busquets, Javi Martinez, Alonso, Kheidera, Mascherano, Essien (when fit can perform any role), Defour, Inler, De Rossi, M'Villa, De Jong and Yaya are also very strong ? ? Some of them aren't even DM.

I do like the idea of having two good midfielders who are mobile and talented enough to perform all duties. Maybe Kenny will buy someone in Jan, who knows, but at the moment Lucas is our DM and to quote Ryan "He is a good player".
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=47011.msg1405549#msg1405549 date=1317090850]
As per fucking usual those who can't identify a footballer if he doesn't barnstorm into a thunderous tackle, slide about on his arse or bang in a 30 yard screamer don't rate Lucas.

English football is littered with this bollocks. It's why England hasn't won a thing in 50 fucking years. A footballer who wins possession without wailing about on his hole and then KEEPS it. Every time.

He plays in midfield for the most famous footballing country in the world, but thats not enough for the self-acclaimed "most knowledgable fans in football".

Jesus fucking cunting wept cunt.
[/quote]

Yeah but is he good enough for the very best , where we should be looking to be ? So winning tackles and laying it off is all he needs to do ? nothing more ? Fuck let's just get Carlton Palmer out of retirment !.

And just because he plays for Brazil doesn't mean he's shit hot , have you seen them lately ? they're shite ! especially compared to teams past .

Anyway my problem is not that he isn't the best we have at the moment , he is , but i am comparing him against the best and better teams and there he falls short .
 
[quote author=ILD link=topic=47011.msg1405554#msg1405554 date=1317091672]
The Lucas subject baffles me. Lucas plays as DM for us. He has been pigeon holed into this position and fair play to him for keeping his head down and adjusting to the role. He is the best DM we have at the club, end of. Gerrard is million times better as an all round player but mightn't have the discipline to just carry out the role of a DM. Also do we want to stifle his game by having him as a holding midfielder? We need to Gerrard to express himself and win games for us. We don't want him covering the full backs and acting as the water carrier. He has a few years left in him as Captain fantastic as we need him helping out in attack.

Lucas is a better DM than Jay. Shelvey (who I really rate) hasn't shown in his limited time here that he's an out and out DM so currently Lucas is better. Adam wouldn't have the discipline to act as a DM and he isn't that mobile either so it would be a case of square pegs in round holes. I often bash Adam but he's helped us in an attacking sense. Two goals and three assists in 6 games isn't shabby. It seems Lucas is only as good as his last game on here. He was excellent against Bolton and not a word was said and now people want him off the team?

I've read we don't need a DM. Ross I think made a point that United don't use one, yeah that's fair enough but it's Man United. They have the best defense in the league. Rock solid defense, strong, mobile and pacy. I have a load of good close friends who support united so i'm often exposed to their games. For years I've heard them lambaste Carrick, Anderson, Gibson et all. They've told me Carrick offers nothing but you know what they get away with it. Carrick might shuffle around the pitch giving the ball to the better player but having a devastating attack, wingers and defense allows them the luxury to play jobbers as a midfield two. Didn't they beat Arsenal in the cup last season with a midfield duo of O' Shea and Gibson?

We don't have a rock solid defense at the mo so we definitely need a player who will be disciplined and play as a holding midfielder. Now if John Henry wants to give us money for a destroyer ala Mascherano or Yan M'Villa or whoever is a good DM these days then great. Kenny decided we didn't need one and that Lucas is up for the job so that's the cock we have to piss with. I'm not going down the super fan route but if he's so crap then how is he fooling so many managers? He does play for Brazil for fuck sake. People will counter it by saying Brazil are on the decline and there's fuck all midfielders in their squad at the mo but that's bullshit. He's playing on merit for a side ranked in the top ten in the world because he's willing to play as a holding midfielder and allow other's express themselves AND because he's a good player. He is clearly in the top 20 DM's in the premiership. To see Nigel Reo Coker in a list of players better than him must be some sort of joke? Steve fucking Sidwell aswel? Come on people.

Off the top of my head The best DM's who actually play as DM's in the league are De Jong, Parker (who is an all rounder) and maybe Song. Yaya Screech and Essien have shown they can play the defensive roll if needed and of course Gerrard who in my opinion could play left back if he wanted to.

For interest sake who are the best DM's in the world? Busquets, Javi Martinez, Alonso, Kheidera, Mascherano, Essien (when fit can perform any role), Defour, Inler, De Rossi, M'Villa, De Jong and Yaya are also very strong ? ? Some of them aren't even DM.

I do like the idea of having two good midfielders who are mobile and talented enough to perform all duties. Maybe Kenny will buy someone in Jan, who knows, but at the moment Lucas is our DM and to quote Ryan "He is a good player".
[/quote]


The End!!
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=47011.msg1405549#msg1405549 date=1317090850]
As per fucking usual those who can't identify a footballer if he doesn't barnstorm into a thunderous tackle, slide about on his arse or bang in a 30 yard screamer don't rate Lucas.

English football is littered with this bollocks. It's why England hasn't won a thing in 50 fucking years. A footballer who wins possession without wailing about on his hole and then KEEPS it. Every time.

He plays in midfield for the most famous footballing country in the world, but thats not enough for the self-acclaimed "most knowledgable fans in football".

Jesus fucking cunting wept cunt.
[/quote]

Yup he plays in midfield for one of the worst Brazil teams in recent history, and coincidentally for the worst Liverpool teams in recent history too.

Clearly those things are both complete coincidences and nothing to do with him.
 
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=47011.msg1405549#msg1405549 date=1317090850]
As per fucking usual those who can't identify a footballer if he doesn't barnstorm into a thunderous tackle, slide about on his arse or bang in a 30 yard screamer don't rate Lucas.

English football is littered with this bollocks. It's why England hasn't won a thing in 50 fucking years. A footballer who wins possession without wailing about on his hole and then KEEPS it. Every time.

He plays in midfield for the most famous footballing country in the world, but thats not enough for the self-acclaimed "most knowledgable fans in football".

Jesus fucking cunting wept cunt.
[/quote]

You wax lyrical about Lucas as if he has no faults - that already renders your opinion as extreme as those who thinks he's shit. It's not black, or white - it's grey.

He's a solid midfielder. But 'wins possession' every time? Even his most ardent fans comment about his persistent fouling ...

Lastly, I don't give a fuck what int'l team Lucas plays for (Remember how you were gloating how he'd ace because he'd made the WC squad in '10?) - that means nothing. Fucking Felipe Melo was playing regularly for Brazil - would you want him? So was Gilberto Silva? Want him too?

Bottom line - he's the best we currently have for the holding midfielder position. But even you, when not faced with persistent Lucas hatred, have talked about needing better ...
 
I think the problem we have is that for years now the foundation of our side has been the central midfield. If that's not working everything else is a mess. In such a team a player who is not a 'force' is going to come in for a lot more stick, particularly when the fans are used to the likes of Didi, Gerrard, Alonso and Maschareno. All world class players who were able to lift the team onto their shoulders.

The quickest fix is to get someone pretty dominant into the midfield and then we can have someone like Lucas or Adam playing. Barry gets away with murder in that City midfield because he's got De Jong (who is brilliant) next to him destroying anything that moves.
 
ILD seems to have had a massive brain fart.

Nobody actually pigeon holed Lucas as a DM. He was tried in the attacking role repeatedly in his first couple of years (even in Gerrard's position)and was found to have absolutely nothing to offer in that regard. No creativity, no goals, no dynamism. Nothing at all.

It's my contention that any moderately talented player can play a reasonable DM if they have to, we've seen averagely talented full backs make it reasonably successfully as DM (Phil Neville) because you don't really need a whole lot of talent to make it there. The best have a whole lot more to their game, but basically you wing it on limited talent and that's exactly what Lucas (and Spearing) does. There is no cracking player being inhibited by having to play DM.

Lucas has good games when teams allow him to, but he's never going to impose himself on a game and if you're a team with ambitions of being anything other than midtable then you need midfielders who can take control of games. We don't have any.
 
Adam couldnt play as a DM. Sound. Does that mean he's thus less than moderately talented ? In fact that makes most our team that.
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405576#msg1405576 date=1317107596]
Lucas has good game when other teams allow him to. Hahahahahahaha
[/quote]

It's true, if teams press us in the middle we're usually fucked. If they don't we do okay.

And others have already pointed out what an arse you've been in this thread. If you want to argue the point go ahead, but the above is typical of what you've posted in this thread. You like Lucas but can't justify it.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47011.msg1405577#msg1405577 date=1317107842]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405576#msg1405576 date=1317107596]
Lucas has good game when other teams allow him to. Hahahahahahaha
[/quote]

It's true, if teams press us in the middle we're usually fucked. If they don't we do okay.

And others have already pointed out what an arse you've been in this thread. If you want to argue the point go ahead, but the above is typical of what you've posted in this thread. You like Lucas but can't justify it.
[/quote]

Can't agree with that at all ross. He's had some of his best games against teams who steamroller the opposition. Chelsea, UTD, Arse. On his day he's as good as any other DM in the league quite comfortably. It's been looked upon already but Lucas looks A LOT better when he has mobility next to him, then he can start attacks by playing a through ball. The immobile Adam and the terrified Henderson give him fuck all options to he usually has to pick a pass to suarez or sideways. When downing moves over to the right there's movement and we look better bringing the ball out of defense. Problem there is that downing then ends up on the right, leaving our left side absolutely woeful.

Oh and as for lucas being played in the gerrard role a few years ago. What was he then? 20? I can't think of many players who cost 6m who dominate a park at 20 who aren't in the higher echelon of players. and even then he only got a handful of games (and it wasn't the gerrard role, it was the xabi role as i recall) when we were playing our most defensive brand of football when we were shite.

I understand why lucas gets stick, i really do! He can be sloppy and weak and sometimes his distribution is atrocious. But there is no doubt he's been one of most consistent performers over the last season and deserves to be in the squad on merit. Even now the calls for him to be dropped are atrocious as he's done nothing wrong. Last year we looked great with spearing and lucas as CMs. We should go back to that as then we have mobility and an ability to read the game in the both of them

If we could fuse spearing and lucas we'd have a great DM.

I reckon if lucas scored in every round of the CL and won us the fucking thing with herculean effort, people still wouldn't fucking want him in the squad.
 
a lot of our problems as a team is we don't do things as a unit, we don't defend and attack collectively. we give the ball to an attacking player and expect them to go on a messiesque run to goal, and we expect lucas to shield the defense all by himself.

when rafa was in charge the role of shielding the defense fell to two players now in kenny's team it falls to one and it's only natural he is going to be exposed.

when gh was in charge we had hamann sheilding the defense but gh had the entire team defending.
 
I'll argue the point alright. It's a fucking pathetically laughable statement. Lucas's performance is now controlled by how generous the opposition is feeling. Yet again it's merely how Lucas plays as well that deems whether we win or not - is that it? That's the one most laughable thing I've heard in ages. You haven't got a fucking clue Ross. And if you want to start with insults - which I'll remind you I haven't done once then crack on fat arse.
 
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=47011.msg1405579#msg1405579 date=1317108361]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47011.msg1405577#msg1405577 date=1317107842]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405576#msg1405576 date=1317107596]
Lucas has good game when other teams allow him to. Hahahahahahaha
[/quote]

It's true, if teams press us in the middle we're usually fucked. If they don't we do okay.

And others have already pointed out what an arse you've been in this thread. If you want to argue the point go ahead, but the above is typical of what you've posted in this thread. You like Lucas but can't justify it.
[/quote]

Can't agree with that at all ross. He's had some of his best games against teams who steamroller the opposition. Chelsea, UTD, Arse. On his day he's as good as any other DM in the league quite comfortably. It's been looked upon already but Lucas looks A LOT better when he has mobility next to him, then he can start attacks by playing a through ball. The immobile Adam and the terrified Henderson give him fuck all options to he usually has to pick a pass to suarez or sideways. When downing moves over to the right there's movement and we look better bringing the ball out of defense. Problem there is that downing then ends up on the right, leaving our left side absolutely woeful.

Oh and as for lucas being played in the gerrard role a few years ago. What was he then? 20? I can't think of many players who cost 6m who dominate a park at 20 who aren't in the higher echelon of players. and even then he only got a handful of games (and it wasn't the gerrard role, it was the xabi role as i recall) when we were playing our most defensive brand of football when we were shite.

I understand why lucas gets stick, i really do! He can be sloppy and weak and sometimes his distribution is atrocious. But there is no doubt he's been one of most consistent performers over the last season and deserves to be in the squad on merit. Even now the calls for him to be dropped are atrocious as he's done nothing wrong. Last year we looked great with spearing and lucas as CMs. We should go back to that as then we have mobility and an ability to read the game in the both of them

If we could fuse spearing and lucas we'd have a great DM.

I reckon if lucas scored in every round of the CL and won us the fucking thing with herculean effort, people still wouldn't fucking want him in the squad.
[/quote]

Arsenal, United and Chelsea generally never try to press us in the middle Fab
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47011.msg1405574#msg1405574 date=1317107240]
ILD seems to have had a massive brain fart.

Nobody actually pigeon holed Lucas as a DM. He was tried in the attacking role repeatedly in his first couple of years (even in Gerrard's position)and was found to have absolutely nothing to offer in that regard. No creativity, no goals, no dynamism. Nothing at all.

It's my contention that any moderately talented player can play a reasonable DM if they have to, we've seen averagely talented full backs make it reasonably successfully as DM (Phil Neville) because you don't really need a whole lot of talent to make it there. The best have a whole lot more to their game, but basically you wing it on limited talent and that's exactly what Lucas (and Spearing) does. There is no cracking player being inhibited by having to play DM.

Lucas has good games when teams allow him to, but he's never going to impose himself on a game and if you're a team with ambitions of being anything other than midtable then you need midfielders who can take control of games. We don't have any.
[/quote]

Ha. No brain farts stinking up my post at all Ross.

First couple of years? Not so sure about that Ross. I was under the impression that we used him as a holding player almost straight away. I did annoy me when we seemed to play two holding players in certain games. This schtick was labelled at us for years and I was pissed off that either Lucas didn't take the onus upon himself to get forward or he was under the instruction not to do so.

I also downplayed the roll of a DM above so I'm not sure if the "any moderately talented player can play a reasonable DM if they have to" line was directed at me. Sure didn't I say it would be a waste of Gerrard's talent to utilise him in this roll as Lucas can do it for us.

I think any sane individual on this forum would prefer if we had two all rounders in our midfield. Both blessed with pace, mobility and ball winning skills. To reiterate Lucas is our best DM and he isn't as bad as you and others make out. I'm not even his biggest fan but I do think he has earned our respect.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47011.msg1405571#msg1405571 date=1317106563]
[quote author=Ryan link=topic=47011.msg1405549#msg1405549 date=1317090850]
As per fucking usual those who can't identify a footballer if he doesn't barnstorm into a thunderous tackle, slide about on his arse or bang in a 30 yard screamer don't rate Lucas.

English football is littered with this bollocks. It's why England hasn't won a thing in 50 fucking years. A footballer who wins possession without wailing about on his hole and then KEEPS it. Every time.

He plays in midfield for the most famous footballing country in the world, but thats not enough for the self-acclaimed "most knowledgable fans in football".

Jesus fucking cunting wept cunt.
[/quote]

Yup he plays in midfield for one of the worst Brazil teams in recent history, and coincidentally for the worst Liverpool teams in recent history too.

Clearly those things are both complete coincidences and nothing to do with him.
[/quote]

*blinks*


You're on form today Big Man. I'd have cancelled my subscription to the comedy channel if I'd known you were this good.....
 
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405585#msg1405585 date=1317108548]
I'll argue the point alright. It's a fucking pathetically laughable statement. Lucas's performance is now controlled by how generous the opposition is feeling. Yet again it's merely how Lucas plays as well that deems whether we win or not - is that it? That's the one most laughable thing I've heard in ages. You haven't got a fucking clue Ross. And if you want to start with insults - which I'll remind you I haven't done once then crack on fat arse.
[/quote]

fuck you

I have a lovely arse
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47011.msg1405592#msg1405592 date=1317109007]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405585#msg1405585 date=1317108548]
I'll argue the point alright. It's a fucking pathetically laughable statement. Lucas's performance is now controlled by how generous the opposition is feeling. Yet again it's merely how Lucas plays as well that deems whether we win or not - is that it? That's the one most laughable thing I've heard in ages. You haven't got a fucking clue Ross. And if you want to start with insults - which I'll remind you I haven't done once then crack on fat arse.
[/quote]

fuck you

I have a lovely arse
[/quote]

I'll be the fucking judge of that. Wait...no.
 
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47011.msg1405587#msg1405587 date=1317108604]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=47011.msg1405579#msg1405579 date=1317108361]
[quote author=Rosco link=topic=47011.msg1405577#msg1405577 date=1317107842]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405576#msg1405576 date=1317107596]
Lucas has good game when other teams allow him to. Hahahahahahaha
[/quote]

It's true, if teams press us in the middle we're usually fucked. If they don't we do okay.

And others have already pointed out what an arse you've been in this thread. If you want to argue the point go ahead, but the above is typical of what you've posted in this thread. You like Lucas but can't justify it.
[/quote]

Can't agree with that at all ross. He's had some of his best games against teams who steamroller the opposition. Chelsea, UTD, Arse. On his day he's as good as any other DM in the league quite comfortably. It's been looked upon already but Lucas looks A LOT better when he has mobility next to him, then he can start attacks by playing a through ball. The immobile Adam and the terrified Henderson give him fuck all options to he usually has to pick a pass to suarez or sideways. When downing moves over to the right there's movement and we look better bringing the ball out of defense. Problem there is that downing then ends up on the right, leaving our left side absolutely woeful.

Oh and as for lucas being played in the gerrard role a few years ago. What was he then? 20? I can't think of many players who cost 6m who dominate a park at 20 who aren't in the higher echelon of players. and even then he only got a handful of games (and it wasn't the gerrard role, it was the xabi role as i recall) when we were playing our most defensive brand of football when we were shite.

I understand why lucas gets stick, i really do! He can be sloppy and weak and sometimes his distribution is atrocious. But there is no doubt he's been one of most consistent performers over the last season and deserves to be in the squad on merit. Even now the calls for him to be dropped are atrocious as he's done nothing wrong. Last year we looked great with spearing and lucas as CMs. We should go back to that as then we have mobility and an ability to read the game in the both of them

If we could fuse spearing and lucas we'd have a great DM.

I reckon if lucas scored in every round of the CL and won us the fucking thing with herculean effort, people still wouldn't fucking want him in the squad.
[/quote]

Arsenal, United and Chelsea generally never try to press us in the middle Fab
[/quote]

Chelsea do, after all, according to some people they've got some of the best CMs in the country! Essien, Lampard, Ramires (none of which excel at DM though), all mentioned as better than lucas. Obviously not if some of his more memorable games are against them

UTD i give you play through the midfield with pace and guile (a reason i'm worried about Adam starting against them) and Arsenal don't actually have a midfield. They have a defense and an attack.

But if lucas can impose himself against the top opposition ross, why isn't that good enough?
Hell, even against spurs i thought he did well considering it seemed to fall to him to defend the back line singlehandedly after Adam was a dickhead .

I think he is suffering TBH. People are quite happy to forget that he had to completely change his position to fit in with rafas ideals. Now, finally, he's producing decent performances after years of being mocked by his own fans. Hes starting to turn it around and TBH i can see him getting better. He has the commitment and the passion to play for us and to play to the best of his ability, so naturally he is going to keep improving. At the moment its not like henderson, wehre people can't see any logic in playing him. He plays because he's the best at what he does with weve got. You can tell in his range of passing that lucas now has improved. A few years ago none of us would imagine lucas would ping some cross field balls. Now he tries them on a weekly basis and all of them are spot on.

I find it so disrespectful that some people would rather play jay spearing than lucas. Jay has offered NOTHING but running in his games. He shows no vision, no decent defensive ability or any real talent a PL footballer should have.
 
The whole thread is a bit pointless really, well the arguments within are.

Those who don't rate him exaggerate how bad he is. Those who do, go round in circles fighting an argument that they compound with "well I know we can do better".

Why don't you all just agree that:

He's a nice bloke and a great pro

He never lets his head drop amidst some pretty shocking barracking at times

He's had some good games against good teams

He's had some shit games against not very good teams

His statistics are neither here nor there, being able to pass it sideways or backwards successfully 90% of the time equates to nothing

While his ability to break up the play and cover ground shouldn't go unrecognised, neither should his ability to always give away dangerous fouls around the box.

We can do better. I think we're all agreed on this. While he's not the worst player in the World, he's far from the best and at the minute I'd suggest he IS playing poorly and he WAS poor against Wolves, he gave away four needless freekicks off the top of my head, which is more or less typical of his general game.


Yeah he gets some unwarranted stick at times, but those criticising are mostly doing so because he's symptomatic of Liverpool these days, people like to dress players up as better than they are and that's where we're falling short. He plays because we've got no one else, not because he's good enough to hold off the competition, it's because there isn't any.

As for going on about "fans", well no one's called him a cunt much since Brendan left, are we not allowed an expressively negative opinion of a player these days? There's nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade, just don't call him a cunt because he isn't. He's just not that great a footballer.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47011.msg1405600#msg1405600 date=1317110401]
The whole thread is a bit pointless really, well the arguments within are.

Those who don't rate him exaggerate how bad he is. Those who do, go round in circles fighting an argument that they compound with "well I know we can do better".

Why don't you all just agree that:

He's a nice bloke and a great pro

He never lets his head drop amidst some pretty shocking barracking at times

He's had some good games against good teams

He's had some shit games against not very good teams

His statistics are neither here nor there, being able to pass it sideways or backwards successfully 90% of the time equates to nothing

While his ability to break up the play and cover ground shouldn't go unrecognised, neither should his ability to always give away dangerous fouls around the box.

We can do better. I think we're all agreed on this. While he's not the worst player in the World, he's far from the best and at the minute I'd suggest he IS playing poorly and he WAS poor against Wolves, he gave away four needless freekicks off the top of my head, which is more or less typical of his general game.


Yeah he gets some unwarranted stick at times, but those criticising are mostly doing so because he's symptomatic of Liverpool these days, people like to dress players up as better than they are and that's where we're falling short. He plays because we've got no one else, not because he's good enough to hold off the competition, it's because there isn't any.

As for going on about "fans", well no one's called him a cunt much since Brendan left, are we not allowed an expressively negative opinion of a player these days? There's nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade, just don't call him a cunt because he isn't. He's just not that great a footballer.
[/quote]

Top post.
 
Indeed, Mark is bang on. My frustration isn't with Lucas as I know he does his best, it's that he's clearly not what a top club needs and we've been playing him regularly for years.
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47011.msg1405600#msg1405600 date=1317110401]
The whole thread is a bit pointless really, well the arguments within are.

Those who don't rate him exaggerate how bad he is. Those who do, go round in circles fighting an argument that they compound with "well I know we can do better".

Why don't you all just agree that:

He's a nice bloke and a great pro

He never lets his head drop amidst some pretty shocking barracking at times

He's had some good games against good teams

He's had some shit games against not very good teams

His statistics are neither here nor there, being able to pass it sideways or backwards successfully 90% of the time equates to nothing

While his ability to break up the play and cover ground shouldn't go unrecognised, neither should his ability to always give away dangerous fouls around the box.

We can do better. I think we're all agreed on this. While he's not the worst player in the World, he's far from the best and at the minute I'd suggest he IS playing poorly and he WAS poor against Wolves, he gave away four needless freekicks off the top of my head, which is more or less typical of his general game.


Yeah he gets some unwarranted stick at times, but those criticising are mostly doing so because he's symptomatic of Liverpool these days, people like to dress players up as better than they are and that's where we're falling short. He plays because we've got no one else, not because he's good enough to hold off the competition, it's because there isn't any.

As for going on about "fans", well no one's called him a cunt much since Brendan left, are we not allowed an expressively negative opinion of a player these days? There's nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade, just don't call him a cunt because he isn't. He's just not that great a footballer.
[/quote]

Post.of.the.thread
 
[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47011.msg1405600#msg1405600 date=1317110401]
The whole thread is a bit pointless really, well the arguments within are.

Those who don't rate him exaggerate how bad he is. Those who do, go round in circles fighting an argument that they compound with "well I know we can do better".

Why don't you all just agree that:

He's a nice bloke and a great pro

He never lets his head drop amidst some pretty shocking barracking at times

He's had some good games against good teams

He's had some shit games against not very good teams

His statistics are neither here nor there, being able to pass it sideways or backwards successfully 90% of the time equates to nothing

While his ability to break up the play and cover ground shouldn't go unrecognised, neither should his ability to always give away dangerous fouls around the box.

We can do better. I think we're all agreed on this. While he's not the worst player in the World, he's far from the best and at the minute I'd suggest he IS playing poorly and he WAS poor against Wolves, he gave away four needless freekicks off the top of my head, which is more or less typical of his general game.


Yeah he gets some unwarranted stick at times, but those criticising are mostly doing so because he's symptomatic of Liverpool these days, people like to dress players up as better than they are and that's where we're falling short. He plays because we've got no one else, not because he's good enough to hold off the competition, it's because there isn't any.

As for going on about "fans", well no one's called him a cunt much since Brendan left, are we not allowed an expressively negative opinion of a player these days? There's nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade, just don't call him a cunt because he isn't. He's just not that great a footballer.


[/quote]


The main problem is we are all fed up of watching him lumbering around on the pitch when we fucking know we should and deserve a better player than him.
 
[quote author=ILD link=topic=47011.msg1405589#msg1405589 date=1317108690]

To reiterate Lucas is our best DM and he isn't as bad as you and others make out. I'm not even his biggest fan but I do think he has earned our respect.
[/quote]

Ok so it's true that he does deserve respect for some of his performances, he's more than decent at times and he's the best DM we have at the moment....but he's still not good enough or consistent enough if we want to be up there with the very best .

Look it's pretty simple ...if he was shit hot like some make out then 90% of fans wouldn't have a problem at all , but he's not , that's why he's debated so much .
 
[quote author=RedZeppelin link=topic=47011.msg1405617#msg1405617 date=1317112604]
[quote author=ILD link=topic=47011.msg1405589#msg1405589 date=1317108690]

To reiterate Lucas is our best DM and he isn't as bad as you and others make out. I'm not even his biggest fan but I do think he has earned our respect.
[/quote]

Ok so it's true that he does deserve respect for some of his performances, he's more than decent at times and he's the best DM we have at the moment....but he's still not good enough or consistent enough if we want to be up there with the very best .

Look it's pretty simple ...if he was shit hot like some make out then 90% of fans wouldn't have a problem at all , but he's not , that's why he's debated so much .
[/quote]

Who has said he is shit hot?
 
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