Is Lucas in the top 20 CM's in the Premiership ?

[Sunny]

[quote author=the_dude link=topic=47011.msg1405784#msg1405784 date=1317130708]
lucas may not be that exciting a player, but he does his role well. the only thing is that he gives away too many cheap fouls, but bar that i'm happy to have him in the team. There are enough players around him who should be able to create chances, and they have been (maybe not enough just yet but i am generally quite pleased with our attack this season.. just need suarez and carroll to get back to their best in terms of finishing). as someone else said, i'm more concerned about adam regarding his defensive duties. he is worse than lucas with fouls because he is very sluggish and our defence at the moment needs better support. when gerrard is fully fit it should be adam who loses his place, in my opinion.
[/quote]

*hands the dude a suit of Lucanium armour. +1 Attack +3 Defense -5 Magic

 

[FoxForceFive]

This is all very tiresome, I've just spent far too long reading this.

Right, Lucas is our best DM at the moment, by a very long way.

That doesn't mean we wouldn't take Mascher or Hammann II in his place in a heartbeat, but it does mean he gets a place in the team every week.

That's it. Debate done until Dec/Jan when people can speculate (wrongly) about us spending cash on another DM in the window.

 

[robinhood]

[quote author=mark1975 link=topic=47011.msg1405600#msg1405600 date=1317110401]
The whole thread is a bit pointless really, well the arguments within are.

Those who don't rate him exaggerate how bad he is. Those who do, go round in circles fighting an argument that they compound with "well I know we can do better".

Why don't you all just agree that:

He's a nice bloke and a great pro

He never lets his head drop amidst some pretty shocking barracking at times

He's had some good games against good teams

He's had some shit games against not very good teams

His statistics are neither here nor there, being able to pass it sideways or backwards successfully 90% of the time equates to nothing

While his ability to break up the play and cover ground shouldn't go unrecognised, neither should his ability to always give away dangerous fouls around the box.

We can do better. I think we're all agreed on this. While he's not the worst player in the World, he's far from the best and at the minute I'd suggest he IS playing poorly and he WAS poor against Wolves, he gave away four needless freekicks off the top of my head, which is more or less typical of his general game.


Yeah he gets some unwarranted stick at times, but those criticising are mostly doing so because he's symptomatic of Liverpool these days, people like to dress players up as better than they are and that's where we're falling short. He plays because we've got no one else, not because he's good enough to hold off the competition, it's because there isn't any.

As for going on about "fans", well no one's called him a cunt much since Brendan left, are we not allowed an expressively negative opinion of a player these days? There's nothing wrong with calling a spade a spade, just don't call him a cunt because he isn't. He's just not that great a footballer.
[/quote]




Good post.


Like I've said for ages, he's got better, but he's not good enough.


The place where we differ is that I see more potential in Spearing and would play him more often, at least off the bench.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

So it seems that everyone is in agreement, he's basically not good enough.

Hopefully Kenny has noticed this as well.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47011.msg1405844#msg1405844 date=1317143179]
So it seems that everyone is in agreement, he's basically not good enough.

Hopefully Kenny has noticed this as well.
[/quote]

Not really ... There's a few here who think he IS good enough.

I go with Mark and FFF and most of us here ... Best currently, but we need better here (as well as elsewhere obviously)

 

[Sunny]

Good enough to win major honours ? No. Good enough to be in the side given our options? Yes

 

[Jürgen4PM]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47011.msg1405852#msg1405852 date=1317143853]
[quote author=Kenny4PM link=topic=47011.msg1405844#msg1405844 date=1317143179]
So it seems that everyone is in agreement, he's basically not good enough.

Hopefully Kenny has noticed this as well.
[/quote]

Not really ... There's a few here who think he IS good enough.

I go with Mark and FFF and most of us here ... Best currently, but we need better here (as well as elsewhere obviously)
[/quote]

Well they've been keeping a low profile (unless i've missed a few of their posts mate).

Yeah i thought Mark's post pretty much nailed it.

I still maintain though that if we don't have a DM of the quality needed, then why should we set out a formation that requires one week in week out? It doesn't have to be a simple question of Lucas or Spearing.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405856#msg1405856 date=1317144114]
Good enough to win major honours ? No. Good enough to be in the side given our options? Yes
[/quote]

So after 10 fucking pages, we're all (bar a few on either side of the argument) basically in agreement?

 

[Squiggles]

Lucas is good enough to be in a side which finishes 6th to 7th every year.

Unfortunately the same can be said of Henderson, Adam and Carroll.

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47011.msg1405861#msg1405861 date=1317145829]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405856#msg1405856 date=1317144114]
Good enough to win major honours ? No. Good enough to be in the side given our options? Yes
[/quote]

So after 10 fucking pages, we're all (bar a few on either side of the argument) basically in agreement?
[/quote]

Doubt it. My main issue is the constant labelling of Lucas of being consistently "shite". Which he clearly isn't.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47011.msg1405861#msg1405861 date=1317145829]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405856#msg1405856 date=1317144114]
Good enough to win major honours ? No. Good enough to be in the side given our options? Yes
[/quote]

So after 10 fucking pages, we're all (bar a few on either side of the argument) basically in agreement?
[/quote]Im not in agreement. I think hes good enough. The assumption that he is the reason we wont win anything is a joke.
If he played in place of Busquets for Barcelona they would still win shit.
He isnt our problem.
Selling Alonso and Mascherano and Meireles and replacing them with Shelvey, Adam and Aquilani (now deceased) is.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

I like you, and I don't feel like debating this anymore

I'm going for a run in the cool mountain air of J-town.

**friendly handshake**

 

[Fabio]

I too think he's good enough

But haters gonna hate

 

[Woland]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405868#msg1405868 date=1317146747]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47011.msg1405861#msg1405861 date=1317145829]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405856#msg1405856 date=1317144114]
Good enough to win major honours ? No. Good enough to be in the side given our options? Yes
[/quote]

So after 10 fucking pages, we're all (bar a few on either side of the argument) basically in agreement?
[/quote]

Doubt it. My main issue is the constant labelling of Lucas of being consistently "shite". Which he clearly isn't.
[/quote]

My memory isn't brilliant. I do remember the last few games. Shite would be a compliment.

In fact to call Lucas shite would be an insult to Henderson.

 

[Sunny]

I've changed my mind. He's fucking boss and anyone who says otherwise is a smelly bellend

 

[Sunny]

[quote author=Krump link=topic=47011.msg1405892#msg1405892 date=1317149323]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405868#msg1405868 date=1317146747]
[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47011.msg1405861#msg1405861 date=1317145829]
[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405856#msg1405856 date=1317144114]
Good enough to win major honours ? No. Good enough to be in the side given our options? Yes
[/quote]

So after 10 fucking pages, we're all (bar a few on either side of the argument) basically in agreement?
[/quote]

Doubt it. My main issue is the constant labelling of Lucas of being consistently "shite". Which he clearly isn't.
[/quote]

My memory isn't brilliant. I do remember the last few games. Shite would be a compliment.

In fact to call Lucas shite would be an insult to Henderson.
[/quote]

Your memorys fucked. The rave years didn't look after you well did they?

 

[Woland]

I've no doubt that I have a substandard memory. It's kinda like a really badly sourced, less well informed and buggy early version of wikipedia. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but in the past few games - which I seem to be able to recall - Lucas really has been fucking woeful.

 

[Sunny]

You're wrong. He was poor Saturday granted. You stand corrected otherwise. You also smell of cheese.

 

[Woland]

I fear your standards have been lowered by the past few years of dross. I can't say I blame you.

And how come you've been sniffing my undercrackers?

 

[MaBigTip]

They don't think hes been poor recently, but I agree with you Krump, he was shocking vs. Brighton and Wolves.

I also think Spearing's first 20 appearances for us have been much better than Lucas' were. In addition he has better physical attributes which is why I would be happy to see him given time instead of Lucas. Hell, even Coady is worth the minutes thanks to his physical attributes. With game time they would show the similar improvement as Lucas and they are starting from a better point.

Spearing is better going forward, good shot on him too, and a better tackler.

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=Shelvey link=topic=47011.msg1405906#msg1405906 date=1317151642]
They don't think so, but I agree with you Krump, he was shocking vs. Brighton and Wolves.

I also think Spearing's first 20 appearances for us have been much better than Lucas' were. In addition he has better physical attributes which is why I would be happy to see him given time instead of Lucas. Hell, even Coady is worth the minutes thanks to his physical attributes. With game time they would show the similar improvement as Lucas and they are starting from a better point.

Spearing is better going forward, good shot on him too, and a better tackler.
[/quote]

Based on? He shot is as wayward as lucas', he only gets to go forward BECAUSE lucas is there to sit back, and just because spearing can't read a game and gets beaten easily, doesn't mean when he pegs it back to throw a tackle in, means he's a better tackler

jay spearing in comfortably championship class and i've seen fuck all to suggest otherwise

Even when on loan at a championship club he was fucking gash

 

[Home and A Gay]

I think Jay has come on in leaps n bounds in the last 8 months.
Championship class is fairly harsh.

 

[Sunny]

Jay Spearing was shamefully bad against Brighton. Anonymous in the second half. Lucas came into the team aged 20, not 22 as Spearing is now. Coady hasn't even played a competitive first team game yet you assume he is currently better. Lucas was MOTM against Bolton and also received votes against Spurs and Stoke. Carry making massive assumptions if you will but don't come running to me when people start complaining you are carrying an aroma like fermented gorgonzola

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=Home and A Gay link=topic=47011.msg1405910#msg1405910 date=1317152007]
I think Jay has come on in leaps n bounds in the last 8 months.
Championship class is fairly harsh.
[/quote]

i've seen nothing from the lad. His passing is completely average, his vision is next to non-existent, his shooting is average, and he breaks into the squad at the age of 22

i'm sorry but the lad is dross and all he offers is what kuyt offers, except without the goal threat, creativity, and ability to be a threat anywhere.

Scratch that, as seen against brighton he remains a threat in our own box

 

[MaBigTip]

Spearings's had numerous good shots for us. Lucas has had 6 in over 100 appearances. He is a better tackler if you can't see that I am sorry. I think Jay has shown himself capable and just because he's had the license to roam because Lucas can't do anything but sit in midfield and be a crappy shield doesn't mean Jay can't sit an wait for attackers to come. It really isn't that hard.

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Fabio link=topic=47011.msg1405916#msg1405916 date=1317152209]
[quote author=Home and A Gay link=topic=47011.msg1405910#msg1405910 date=1317152007]
I think Jay has come on in leaps n bounds in the last 8 months.
Championship class is fairly harsh.
[/quote]

i've seen nothing from the lad. His passing is completely average, his vision is next to non-existent, his shooting is average, and he breaks into the squad at the age of 22
[/quote]

Besides that wonder pass to Stevie, can you really tell me that Lucas's passing anything but average either?

 

[Sunny]

Lucas is boss

 

[LeTallecWiz]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405922#msg1405922 date=1317152495]
Lucas is boss
[/quote]

I smell like fermented feta.

 

[mark1975]

[quote author=Sunny link=topic=47011.msg1405922#msg1405922 date=1317152495]
Lucas is boss
[/quote]

.......Should stop picking him

 

[Fabio]

[quote author=LeTallecWiz link=topic=47011.msg1405921#msg1405921 date=1317152366]
[quote author=Fabio link=topic=47011.msg1405916#msg1405916 date=1317152209]
[quote author=Home and A Gay link=topic=47011.msg1405910#msg1405910 date=1317152007]
I think Jay has come on in leaps n bounds in the last 8 months.
Championship class is fairly harsh.
[/quote]

i've seen nothing from the lad. His passing is completely average, his vision is next to non-existent, his shooting is average, and he breaks into the squad at the age of 22
[/quote]

Besides that wonder pass to Stevie, can you really tell me that Lucas's passing anything but average either?
[/quote]

generally on a weekly basis lucas plays good passes now wiz. The odd wonder cross field hollywood pass too. In the same way shelvey says to me, if you can't see lucas is a good passer then i'm sorry.

And shelvey, for spearing to be a good DM he'll have t obein the mascher mould, all action and running about. I don't think spearing can see attacks forming and know when to break them down. To me, he seems to lack quite a lot of in-game awareness.

Surely its no coincidence he's only just got a look in when we were in the middle of a CM crisis, and that he's never got a look in at any england level.