Yeah we're all OK with paying about £80 million for Downing, Henderson, Adam and Carroll.
I mean it's not our money, it just dragged the club we support 4 years backwards.
Nuri Şahin, Part III (Agreed, pending medical)
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Yeah we're all OK with paying about £80 million for Downing, Henderson, Adam and Carroll.
I mean it's not our money, it just dragged the club we support 4 years backwards.
Wooo! Good signing. Does this make me an ITK now?
No, but it certainly makes the count one. The bastard was right after all.
http://www.sixcrazyminutes.com/index.php?threads/gossip.19429/
Woo. Count for mod.
http://www.sixcrazyminutes.com/index.php?threads/gossip.19429/
Woo. Count for mod.
I hear what you say but Im pretty certain Im right.
I still haven't forgiven that twat for starting that thread.
That's got nothing to do with anything. We could've spent that money on star players like Şahin but we didn't. The fact the money was wasted and spent incorrectly doesn't mean we shouldn't spend now. Shit example from you but then it's hardly surprising.
I'm bothered because (assuming the figures are right) £5m for one season (excluding wages) is a HELL of a lot of money. But it's not the expense that bothers me as much as why, if we're able to be so extravagant for one season's worth of player, the owners won't invest, say, the £20m to actually go out and sign a similar player on a 5 year contract? Something that would be a much better long-term investment, and probably much cheaper as well. Is it because they can't or won't? Or because they and/or Rodgers don't see the wisdom in that alternative? Because either case worries me.
IMO, and I've said this several times now, the squad needs a good bit of sensible investment. As far as I'm concerned, the only way this deal pays off is if we get CL football next season. Otherwise it's just more money down the drain and back to the drawing board next summer - that doesn't mean I might not love watching him play for a year and really appreciate him while he's here, but in terms of cold logic he has to make a massive contribution to be worth that £5m.
No, this is a shit argument from you.
Haven't the owners tried the tactic of spending a lot of money for a 5 year contract with Carroll and look what happened there. The thing is long term investments don't necessarily show there worth until, well, a long term. Granted Carroll hasn't exactly greatly shown he's going to realise his potential and be an investment but if the plan was a 5 year one, aren't we jumping the gun in saying he's failed?
So now we've gone the other way and paid out a smaller amount of money with no long term commitment. So what? What if we do get in to the CL and it was a worth it as a stepping stone?
I'm, personally, happy with both approaches since they ARE sensible (ok £35 million is a little too high of a price) investments but, as always, it's the outcome of the gamble. We're just have to wait and see.
(1) There isn't similar quality out there available for £20m and wants to sign for us on a 5 year contract. If Şahin was for sale, Arsenal would have bought him.
(2) Isn't the £5m for his wages? If we signed someone on a 5 year contract, that's £20m for the transfer and £25m for his wages - i.e. £45m. Doesn't sound cheap to me.
(3) If he's not going to make a massive contribution then I'd rather we pay the £5m and be rid than £20m and be stuck with him for 5 years. We might then have to beg Newcastle or West Ham to buy him while pretending we don't want to. Unthinkable I know.
Made up by this signing! Even if its only for a season. Şahin is quality. Five million for a season puts him in the 20-25 million value bracket as a player which (regardless of what madrid payed while his contract was running down) is what he is imo. His quality at dortmund was easy to see and only for injury last season we wouldve seen more of him at madrid. I really hope we can sign him full time next summer even if there isnt a clause in the deal for it.
Why do some people have a Downing performance counter ? It's pretty pathetic when you consider that a winger is the equivilant of a polygamist - he needs multiple partners, all doing their bit too, to be able to function properly and produce results.
Ok.
I'm a cunt like that and I hate Downing. Maybe I'll jinx it.
It's Modo.
Besides that gauge is pretty stupid. It generally means all goals that are scored in competitions that are not in the league don't count. So Gerrards winner for the FA cup - doesn't count. All CL goals - doesn't count. Suarez has really only scored, say, half of the goals he's been attributed to.
Well, I think you need a sense of proportion. The Carroll transfer is obviously a statistical outlier: it was clear to sensible people at the time that it was ludicrously overpriced, and that he was a flavour of the month player, and has proven to be one of the worst deals of the Premier League era. It's not that useful as an example of a particular approach.
I agree that the CL issue is undoubtedly a complicating factor, because the benefits of finishing 4th as opposed to 5th are so incredibly large. In theory it'd be worth paying out £20m for one year if the result was CL football. I don't think there are any easy answers to that particular equation, because as you say any money spent will always be a gamble.
And you can't persuade me that this approach is sensible just by stating it, as if it were a fact. Why is it sensible? And compared to what? My main point is that, if the owners are willing to pay £5m for one season's service, why are they not able/willing to pay £20m or so to buy a similar player outright? A 23 year old will be 28 in 5 years' time - therefore I think it's reasonable to estimate he could be sold for £10m at that point. The total cost in terms of transfer fees is £10m over 5 years, or £2m a year, less than half what we're paying for one year of Şahin. Would that not be better, if we were able to find such a player? Surely they exist?
I think its more like Şahin fits the Rodgers tactic and style of play to the t. We're signing a high calibre player of great great quality. I dont think there is similar out there that we could buy right now if I'm honest. We're talking about the best player in the Bundesliga at the age of 22. A playmaker that will increase the quality in our midfield from a top 6 side to a top 4.
Fantastic signing.
Fantastic signing.
1. By no means certain. See the 'Downing defence' of last summer.
2. I don't know for sure the cost of the deal. That's why I've repeatedly stressed in my arguments *if the figures are correct*. The figures I'm basing my argument on are £4/5m for the loan and £80k a week for the wages. IMO £80k a week looks about 'fair value' for that calibre of player, in that it's what I'd expect to have to pay to a comparable player signed for around £20m on a permanent deal. If the wages are therefore equivalent, it follows that you can then examine the loan fee of £4/5m a year in direct comparison to the transfer fee of the alternative permanent signing.
3. I agree that one benefit of a loan signing is that it reduces liability in the case of the player flopping. But it also means you get none of the benefit of his value increasing if he does better than you expect.
James - It's not a shit argument. It's a fair point.
He's a new player, who is going to add quality to the team. I'm happy.
The Torres deal kinda enforced the £35 million. Let's face it, if Chelsea offered £35-40 million then we probably would have paid £20-25 million for Carroll. As a flavour of the month, that would probably something we can all stomach better. So yes it wasn't the best example but the point still stands.
As for spending £5 million over a season? Well what's the difference between that and spending £25 million over five? You can't really argue that he's our player because player re-negotiate their contracts after 3 and you then spend more money or sell. There's also no guarantee that's he'll stay the whole 5 years either. He could play fantastically in the first year, have 2 sub-standard years and then moan when he's put on the transfer list for the fourth. As you say, it's incredibly complex and there are too many variables to even think about the outcome.
I say it's sensible simply sensible because there are no wrong or right answers. There are plenty of examples that's worked (didn't Larson (sp) go to Utd) and plenty that didn't. The thing is we have to play with the money we got with what's available on the market and this approach is sensible in this case. We've got the Şahin now, Arsenal don't. It's up to Brendan, Şahin and the rest to make sure the gamble pays off.
Ha ha! He's sure to be good!
Nice one LastBoyScout (Great movie by the way). I see you've been here since May but I thought I'd welcome you anyway - So welcome to 6CM's
I think it's a great low risk signing. If he helps us top 4 the £5 million won't be an issue to anyone. If he goes after a season, Suso may have then matured in to a player to take his place in the first team squad. If he falls in love with the club and can't see options in Madrid he could push for a permanent move.
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