You dont think the first was played for?
Sunderland (a) - post match
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You dont think the first was played for?
The first was definitely not a peno.both feet are off the ground before he reaches Klaven definite dive
The Can one is never a pen, all too often we forget the word "deliberate" is the most important word in the handball rule. He hasn't flicked his arm at that ball, not in a million years. Even the co commentator on my stream said "I know its not deliberate but thats a penalty for me" I mean how stupid can you be and still get paid to chat about football. And the foul by Lucas was non existant too
I think he meant his arm was away from his side. There has to be a point where you say, "well he's put his arm out so he's asking for it". It's why players are trained to keep their arms down and in contact with their body, so there's no grey area when it happens. If you have your arm away from your body, then you're obviously at an advantage if you can get away with the ball hitting you.
I get that there wasn't alot of space between the side of Can's body and his arm, but there was clear space between, which means his arm is swaying enough for him to be deemed to be gaining an advantage. The attacker is disadvantaged because the gap that should have been there to play the ball into (unless Can closes that space fairly), is reduced by the angle of Can's arm, so the defending player is gaining an unfair advantage.
It's daft like, all the same. But it's no different to a defender sticking his leg out and the attacker gaining advantage by simulating the dive and making contact with the attacker, rather than the other way around. If you're stupid enough to put yourself in that situation, then you're going to be on the wrong end of a decision.
could you see any Sunderland player coming in for that flick. I couldn't have you tried dodging a ball flicked at pace from four feet away. Can is big slow and not very aware. It was played for a penalty from a Manc ref.
You would be wrong in all but one though. And yes its human nature to scream for penalties.
If you move your hand away from your side and the ball hits your hand, it's a penalty, because your arm should be at your side. Can wasn't stretching or in motion, he was stood static infront of the player. Thems the rules.
The Manc ref stuff is nonsense. He didn't give a couple of decisions their way too, I guess that means he's a half Newcastle fan too.
He's hardly going to wear a Ferguson mask and jump up and down when they score is he.
Mark I have an image of football being played like Riverdance with all players running around upright with their arms by their sides. It's impossible to do of course and Can was only about 3yards away from the ball and didn't lift his arm at all. Would have been a very harsh peno. That Lucas freekick though was utter bollocks from a ref especially as he had allowed loads of niggly challenges from Sunderland to go without blowing up.
From the FA "A direct free kick [or penalty] is awarded...if a player handles the ball deliberately" while "distance between the opponent and ball" should be taken into consideration.
So taking into account both things no penalty
Not for me, his arm was by his side, its next to impossible while playing the game to keep you arm ridgedly beside your body with no gap, there's no need for it either but we see a lot of pro's trying it these days, it hasn't been required for years and years up to now and the rule hasn't changed so there shouldn't be an onus to keep you arm tight to your body. Mane's was handball, deliberately moved his hand/arm to the ball, Can's wasn't.
As for the commentator, he said " I know its not deliberate" which means he knows it can't be handball yet goes on to say it is.
How do you determine deliberate handball and consider distance? It's all relative and down to the ref on the day, I'm not screaming "it should have been a pen", I'm saying why I can see why it might have been given. It's a pointless arguement anyway, because it wasn't. If it was the other way, I'd have been shouting for it to be given, as I suspect would you.
This is true and I regularly read and hear fans screaming for pens that aren't pens just because the ball hit the hand/arm without any deliberate act occurring. They are all wrong though as are the refs that give them. Its probably why we see lads like Lovren and Moreno now put their arms behind their backs when defending in the box, rules out any spurious claim.
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I did mate. It was very cool to see it so clearly with the naked eye. I'm a big fan of my telescope though so I have seen it lots. Neptune was out last night too. Very cool.
What rule did they get wrong?
I actually thought the ref did ok. The only big decision I wasn't happy about was the Lucas "foul" which led to Sunderland's 2nd penalty. I thought he got the Can decision absolutely spot on. Can was clearing moving his arm in toward his body so he gave him the benefit of the doubt. The Mane incident was never a penalty, and I would have been really annoyed if it were given to Sunderland if the situation was reversed.
Well an example would be McCann saying the Can penalty incident was one, makes the point it's not deliberate but it's still a penalty. Ummmm no it's not.
True actually. I don't understand all the criticism Lucas is getting for a tackle he didn't make. This point was made on Sky or MotM or one of the videos I watched post match, with playback. No contact from Lucas and barely a whisper from Can - Defoe dived. However it was stupid and rash of Can to give him that chance in the first place. he wasn't going anywhere.
Ain't that the truth. Some match reporter on FiveLive last weekend was prattling on about a goal from a corner being wrongly given because the scorer was "offside". You can't be offside from a corner FFS.
Nah he flicked it up at Can's arm - which was slightly away from his body - watch Can immediately try to pull his arm in and rotate out of the way.
Same with the 1st penalty, Klavan didn't even raise a foot off the ground, I simply don't see how you can give a penalty for closing the door (space) when a player falls trying to squeeze through it.
Agree with Klopp, it was never a FK, however if given then of course it was a penalty thereafter.
The other side of the coin of course is that any of these could be given depending on the referee's viewpoint, and so two were.
Mark as you can see from this pic Can is only 3/4 foot away from the ball when it was kicked and didn't put his arm out. It would have been a ridiculous penalty if given
2016 ended on a high, with consecutive victories, wins over the Bitters, Stoke and City - the latter being a poor game and average display, but crucially - fundamentally - a clean sheet and a 1-0 win and three crucial points.
Sadly, 2017 started in rather more predictable Liverpool fashion; a thin squad painfully exposed, inability to cope with sustained pressure and more defensive calamities. Against dreadful opposition.
We need to bring in some quality additions in midfield and attack, and hope that Matip and Gomez are fit soon. All that said, we are second and in a position far higher than I expected at the start of the season, but I worry that this squad may not cope without help, and we will be reeled in by the chasing pack, with Spurs and United looking dangerous.
As for the game, it was mediocre. Mignolet made several fine saves and we looked ponderous and alarmingly creaky all over the pitch. Too many players simply aren't playing well, but we don't seem to have adequate replacements. Defoe scored two typically nerveless penalties, and looked dangerous throughout, but there weren't too many other top quality displays from the opposition, we were just poor. On the plus side, we didn't lose.
Mignolet (7) Made two or three very good saves and was quick and decisive in his decision-making
Clyne (7) Plenty of effort going forward and made space for the attacking players. One or two dangerous crosses too, but nobody made the most of them.
Lovren (6) Chucked himself into tackles and made some good interceptions, but the entire defence was ragged and sloppy, which, worryingly, seems to fit his playing style quite well.
Klavan (4) Clumsy in the challenge for the penalty and mediocre throughout. Defoe caused him multiple conniptions
Milner (6) Gave the ball away too much and looked knackered, before an early departure
Can (4) Slow in thought and execution, his first half display gave Sunderland every confidence as he was utterly lamentable. He improved in the second half, but it was too little too late.
Wijnaldum (5) Mediocre. His usual snappy passing was off, and he created little of note all game, allowing Sunderland's cloggers to win the midfield battle.
Lallana (6) He started in his current season form, busy and inventive, but then we saw too much of the Lallana from his first two seasons at Liverpool - inconsistent, struggling to make any impression and no real threat. He then had another surge and started pulling Sunderland's defence out of shape with his movement, but it wasn't enough.
Mane (7) Point added for goal, point subtracted for halfwitted penalty. He's clearly our most dangerous player, and his 9 Premiership goals have been so important, so we will badly miss his searing pace and goal threat this month. But he should be doing even more with the ability and amount of ball he gets in this side. We'll struggle without him.
Sturridge (7) Starts games, scores goals. He's by some distance our best finisher, but he needs to curb the wandering and tendency to drop too deep, because we need him in the box more often to finish off all the good approach work. Hope his injury isn't serious, because he should be starting every game.
Firmino (4) His workrate is the reason Klopp values him so highly, and as usual it was difficult to fault that. But once again, his lack of pace, occasional weird sloppiness and an almost total lack of goal threat meant that aside from his defensive work, he was largely useless in the actual business of scoring goals. That said, we shouldn't expect too much, given that he's not a natural finisher and 6 goals from a midfielder isn't bad, with only Lallana, Mane, Delle Ali, Hazard, Antonio and Hull's Snodgrass scoring more - making him on course to match or even beat last season's total of 10 - that said none of the above actually play as a striker.
Subs:
Moreno (5) Busy and ineffective
Origi (5) He's never going to score many, but he always works hard. Useful sub, although not given long.
Lucas (4) Oh just fuck off
Sadly, 2017 started in rather more predictable Liverpool fashion; a thin squad painfully exposed, inability to cope with sustained pressure and more defensive calamities. Against dreadful opposition.
We need to bring in some quality additions in midfield and attack, and hope that Matip and Gomez are fit soon. All that said, we are second and in a position far higher than I expected at the start of the season, but I worry that this squad may not cope without help, and we will be reeled in by the chasing pack, with Spurs and United looking dangerous.
As for the game, it was mediocre. Mignolet made several fine saves and we looked ponderous and alarmingly creaky all over the pitch. Too many players simply aren't playing well, but we don't seem to have adequate replacements. Defoe scored two typically nerveless penalties, and looked dangerous throughout, but there weren't too many other top quality displays from the opposition, we were just poor. On the plus side, we didn't lose.
Mignolet (7) Made two or three very good saves and was quick and decisive in his decision-making
Clyne (7) Plenty of effort going forward and made space for the attacking players. One or two dangerous crosses too, but nobody made the most of them.
Lovren (6) Chucked himself into tackles and made some good interceptions, but the entire defence was ragged and sloppy, which, worryingly, seems to fit his playing style quite well.
Klavan (4) Clumsy in the challenge for the penalty and mediocre throughout. Defoe caused him multiple conniptions
Milner (6) Gave the ball away too much and looked knackered, before an early departure
Can (4) Slow in thought and execution, his first half display gave Sunderland every confidence as he was utterly lamentable. He improved in the second half, but it was too little too late.
Wijnaldum (5) Mediocre. His usual snappy passing was off, and he created little of note all game, allowing Sunderland's cloggers to win the midfield battle.
Lallana (6) He started in his current season form, busy and inventive, but then we saw too much of the Lallana from his first two seasons at Liverpool - inconsistent, struggling to make any impression and no real threat. He then had another surge and started pulling Sunderland's defence out of shape with his movement, but it wasn't enough.
Mane (7) Point added for goal, point subtracted for halfwitted penalty. He's clearly our most dangerous player, and his 9 Premiership goals have been so important, so we will badly miss his searing pace and goal threat this month. But he should be doing even more with the ability and amount of ball he gets in this side. We'll struggle without him.
Sturridge (7) Starts games, scores goals. He's by some distance our best finisher, but he needs to curb the wandering and tendency to drop too deep, because we need him in the box more often to finish off all the good approach work. Hope his injury isn't serious, because he should be starting every game.
Firmino (4) His workrate is the reason Klopp values him so highly, and as usual it was difficult to fault that. But once again, his lack of pace, occasional weird sloppiness and an almost total lack of goal threat meant that aside from his defensive work, he was largely useless in the actual business of scoring goals. That said, we shouldn't expect too much, given that he's not a natural finisher and 6 goals from a midfielder isn't bad, with only Lallana, Mane, Delle Ali, Hazard, Antonio and Hull's Snodgrass scoring more - making him on course to match or even beat last season's total of 10 - that said none of the above actually play as a striker.
Subs:
Moreno (5) Busy and ineffective
Origi (5) He's never going to score many, but he always works hard. Useful sub, although not given long.
Lucas (4) Oh just fuck off
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