The myth of fingerprints.

[Oncy]

[size=12pt]The great money myth.[/size]

When Rafa took over the club this is the squad he inherited.

Dudek
Kirkland
Hyppia
Traore
Carragher
Babbel
Henchoz
Finnan
Riise
Warnock
Kewell
Gerrard
Smicer
Hamman
Biscan
Le Tallec
Murphy
Diao
Diouf
Baros
Pongolle
Mellor
Owen.

Im going to try to document as honestly and fairly as possible why i think he has failed when it comes to building a squad.
Ill try to explain as i go.
SO! The above team was his starting point. And from the above team he had no choice but to sell-
Owen (who wanted to leave)
And he also chose to sell-
Murphy, Babbel and Henchoz.
This raised 11m total and left him with a squad of-

Dudek
Kirkland
Hyppia
Traore
Carragher
Finnan
Riise
Warnock
Kewell
Gerrard
Smicer
Hamman
Biscan
Le tallec
Diouf
Baros
Pongolle
Mellor

The club had already agreed to sign Cisse for 14.5m from Auxerre and i am not sure wether or not Benitez rubber stamped the deal but regardless Cisse was added to the above squad.
That left
2 Keepers, 2 Centre Backs, 3 Left backs, 1 Right back, 3 Centre midfielders, 2 Left midfielders, 1 Right midfielder and 5 Forwards.
So Right Back, Right Midfield and Centre back should have been the priority and Rafa was given 26m on top of the 14m for Cisse to spend.
He purchased-

Josemi – 2m RIGHT BACK
Nunez – Free exchange RIGHT MIDFIELD
Alonso – 11.7m CENTRE MIDFIELD
Garcia – 6m RIGHT MIDFIELD
Pellegrino – Free CENTRE BACK
Morientes – 6.3m CENTRE FORWARD
Carson – 1m GOALKEEPER

I think that pretty much took care of what we needed and you would have to say that at the time that wasn’t a bad window. Obviously some of the players turned out to be a waste of space, and its difficult to see how letting Henchoz go on a free and getting Pellegrino in on a free helped in any way. But regardless he addressed our needs and this was the squad that finished the season.

Dudek
Kirkland
Carson
Traore
Carragher
Hyppia
Finnan
Riise
Warnock
Pellegrino
Josemi
Kewell
Gerrard
Smicer
Hamman
Biscan
Le tallec
Garcia
Alonso
Nunez
Diouf
Baros
Cisse
Pongolle
Mellor
Morientes.

Into his second season and from the above squad Rafa shipped out
Smicer, Diouf, Biscan, Nunez, Baros, Josemi and Pellegrino.
All of whom were poor and the argument that he HAD to sell to buy falls down. He didn’t HAVE to sell to buy. He HAD to sell because they were poor players. (three of them were his poor players having only been there ar the club for a year and having only signed 8 players. 3 of them shipped out already. Hooray his supporters cried he doesn’t suffer fools gladly. He gets rid of flops immediately.
So we were left with-

Dudek
Kirkland
Carson
Hyypia
Traore
Carragher
Finnan
Riise
Warnock
Alonso
Garcia
Kewell
Gerrard
Hamman
Le tallec
Morientes
Pongolle
Mellor
Cisse

Thats
3 Keepers, 2 Centre backs, 1 right back, 2 left backs, 3 Centre midfielders, 2 Left midfielders, 1 Right midfielder and 4 Strikers
So Centre back, Right back and Right midfield look lightest with one more keeper and centre midfielder than the summer before nothing else too drastically different in terms of needs.
Rafa signed
Zenden – LEFT MIDFIELD
Reina – KEEPER
Momo – CENTRE MIDFIELD
Crouch – STRIKER
Gonzales – LEFT MIDFIELD
Kromkamp – RIGHT BACK
Agger – CENTRE BACK
Fowler – STRIKER

The cost of all these players was about 26m give or take. So we NEEDED 3 players with a 26 Million budget. We signed 8 players with that money and for the first time we sacrificed quality for quantity. We also failed to sign a Right midfielder leaving the inconsistent Garcia as the best option out there. That or moving the best centre midfielder in the world out right.
So the season began with-

Dudek
Reina
Carson
Kirkland
Hyppia
Traore
Carragher
Finnan
Riise
Warnock
Agger
Kromkamp
Alonso
Garcia
Kewell
Gerrard
Hamman
Le tallec
Zenden
Momo
Gonazales
Crouch
Fowler
Morientes
Pongolle
Mellor
Cisse

The following season he sold
Morientes, Hamman, Traore, Mellor, Kromkamp, Warnock, Pongolle and Kirkland for a combined total of about 14.5m
Leaving us a squad of-

Dudek
Reina
Carson
Hyppia
Carragher
Finnan
Riise
Agger
Alonso
Garcia
Kewell
Gerrard
Le tallec
Zenden
Momo
Gonzales
Crouch
Fowler
Cisse

So now we are starting to look a bit thin
We have
3 keepers, 3 Centre backs, 1 Left back, 1 Right back, 3 Centre midfield, 1 Right midfield, 4 Left midfield and 3 Strikers.
So we are now looking for a minimum of ONE right midfielder, ONE Left back, ONE right back and ONE Striker. Ideally though we need another centre back and probably at least one defender who can cover left and right back.
This as far as i can see is where the argument about HAVING to sell to buy falls down.
Rafa raised 14.5 from selling 8 players and left holes all over the park. He was given about 46m to spend including the money he raised and he signed-

Bellamy
Palleta
Aurelio
Pennant
Kuyt
Arbeloa
Mascherano

Giving us a squad of -

Carson
Dudek
Reina
Paletta
Aurelio
Arbeloa
Hyppia
Carragher
Finnan
Riise
Agger
Alonso
Garcia
Kewell
Gerrard
Le Tallec
Momo
Zenden
Gonzales
Pennant
Mascherano
Crouch
Fowler
Cisse
Bellamy
Kuyt

Not too shabby. All the positions he had to fill (because he sold the players already in them) filled with the added bonus of an 18m Centre midfielder thrown into the bargain.
This was the last time i thought Rafa got a transfer window right.
The next season he was given 24million to spend
24 Million to add to the squad above to make us title worthy.
Rafa then sold too many players. He sold players he needn’t have and he signed inferior players. He wasted the best part of 20 million pounds.
He sold
Zenden, Dudek, Fowler, Garcia, Cisse, Bellamy, Gonzales, Paletta and Sissoko.
This gave him 54 Million pounds to spend.
My question then as it is today is why not keep Bellamy, Cisse and Garcia when all you were going to do was replace them with like for like or even worse players. The squad was good and even having just sold Sissoko, Palleta and Gonzales we would have had 37m to spend which would have given us
Torres
Yossi
Skrtel
They are the three players that actually benefited us
At this moment our squad could have been

Reina
Carson
Youth Keeper
Aurelio
Riise
Carragher
Hyppia
Skrtel
Arbeloa
Agger
Finnan
Alonso
Kewell
Gerrard
Pennant
Mascherano
Le tallec
Guthrie
Garcia
Yossi
Cisse
Bellamy
Crouch
Kuyt
Torres

Alas Rafa sold Cisse, Bellamy, Garcia and replaced them with
Leto
Lucas
Voronin
Babel
Insua
Itjande

Giving us a squad of-

Itjande
Reina
Carson
Insua
Skrtel
Aurelio
Arbeloa
Finnan
Carragher
Hyppia
Riise
Agger
Alonso
Kewell
Gerrard
Pennant
Mascherano
Guthrie
Lucas
Leto
Yossi
Babel
Crouch
Kuyt
Torres
Voronin

I think this was the season he got it wrong. I remember arguing at the time (when we were told we were outbid for Alves and/or Simao) that if he hadn’t signed 6 average/poor players there and then in that year we could have bought ONE world class player for the right hand side. Would the above team be any weaker if you took out babel, Leto, Lucas and added in Alves or Simao? Of course it wouldn’t. Would it look any weaker if we didn’t sign those players and kept Cisse and Bellamy? No of course not.
The argument has been that Rafa HAD to sell Bellamy to sign Torres. That is total nonsense. He had 24 million to spend WITHOUT sales that summer. And even if he had sold one or two who we knew had to go (sissoko and Gonzales) he still could have bought Torres and Skrtel and Yossi. This MUST sell to buy argument is almost self fulfilling.
Anyway we had our squad such as it was and the following summer Rafa sold
Riise, Kewell, Le Tallec, Crouch, Carson, Guthrie, Finnan and Pennant for a combined 24 million and was given 15 Million to spend plus sales.
So once again he had an opportunity to sell a player or two and go all out for one or two top targets and rather than do that he shipped out 8 players (4 of whom were first teamers or there abouts) and signed
Keane
Degen
Dossena
Cavalieri
Ngog
Riera
This was a bad bad window.
Our first teams right back, left back and striking options got weakened in this window. How we challenged for the title i will never know.
Our squad then was-

Reina
Itjande
Cavalieri
Insua
Skrtel
Aurelio
Arbeloa
Degen
Carragher
Hyppia
Agger
Dossena
Alonso
Gerrard
Mascherano
Leto
Yossi
Babbel
Riera
Kuyt
Torres
Ngog
Voronin.

From a very real possibility of having Crouch, Cisse, Bellamy, Torres and Kuyt as our striking options to just two short years later having Kuyt, Torres, Ngog and Voronin.
We all know what happened this summer. Rafa wasn’t as much to blame as usual with Xabi basically forcing us to sell him. This is where we have ended up. And here we are.
We have spent big money and got some great players for that coin.
We have Signed (under Benitez)
Reina
Agger
Skrtel
Mascherano
Maxi
Johnson
Aquilani
Torres
Kuyt
These are IMHO all very fine players.
We have wasted some money on –
Babel, Morientes, Keane and a few others.
But my biggest issue with Rafa and his transfer policy has always been these two things.
A)He sells and buys too many players every year.
B)He Sells players too quickly.
We have often shipped out a player and got in like for like quality. In some....MANY cases even worse quality (Bellamy, Riise, Finnan, Crouch, Hamman, Cisse, Pongolle) all of whom are better squad options than many of those who came after them.
We have complained that we cant compete for players while we have systematically spent a lot of money on too many average players year in year out. (I havnt even included all the ones and two millions for youth talent, but im sure it comes to many many millions too)
We COULD have a squad with Reina, Riise, Agger, Carragher, Johnson, Mascherano, Gerrard, Aquilani, Simao, Crouch, Bellamy, Torres etc but we don’t because during the past five years we have needed to supply a one year residence to Leto, Kromkamp, Gonzales, Sissoko, Voronin, Morientes, et al and that and that ALONE has stopped us being the team we could and probably should have become by now.
Rafa has been unlucky at times. He has been brilliant at other times. But all too often he has been depressingly, consistently fucking dire in the transfer market. Its why we are where we are. Its why we now have one decent striker at the club and one passable left back and NO right or left midfielders.
So lets stop pretending hes had his hands tied please. He may well have but he did it himself. And he is apparently no Houdini.

 

[Oncy]

Hmmmm my emboldening is all over the fucking place. Sorry.

 

[grjt]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39968.msg1094196#msg1094196 date=1272387386]
Hmmmm my emboldening is all over the fucking place. Sorry.
[/quote]

Oncy, the critics will see "so what is new", but its actually (bold font aside!) a very very clear synopsis of the Benitez reign.

Excellent post.

Difference between the end of the Houllier era and now? How close we came to actually winning the Prem. I can take the despair, its the hope I cant stand.

 

[Fabio]

FAntastically concise post, free from the standard hyperbole you get on here

Saying that some silly sod will mention wages

 

[HC]

Good post.

Rafa's revolving door transfer policy has in no way helped the cause.

I'm sure he might counter what you're saying by claiming he's given lamps when he asks for Sofa's or whatever.

 

[Farkmaster]

Holy fuck, if he goes at least I won't need to read more posts picking at the same sore.

Isn't it just generally accepted that he's been a disaster in the market the last two seasons by everyone but the clinically insane?

 

[Asbo]

Bellemy going berzerk with a golf club was the reason he went?

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Farkmaster link=topic=39968.msg1094224#msg1094224 date=1272392342]
Holy fuck, if he goes at least I won't need to read more posts picking at the same sore.

Isn't it just generally accepted that he's been a disaster in the market the last two seasons by everyone but the clinically insane?
[/quote]yes. This post is for the clinically insane. It's a cure. Thanks for Reading. Hope it helps.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Asbo link=topic=39968.msg1094225#msg1094225 date=1272392407]
Bellemy going berzerk with a golf club was the reason he went?
[/quote]No it isn't. It MAY be the reason Rafa decided to sell him. It ISNT the reason he went. The reason he went is that Rafa sold him.

 

[Spionkop69]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39968.msg1094228#msg1094228 date=1272392722]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=39968.msg1094225#msg1094225 date=1272392407]
Bellemy going berzerk with a golf club was the reason he went?
[/quote]No it isn't. It MAY be the reason Rafa decided to sell him. It ISNT the reason he went. The reason he went is that Rafa sold him.
[/quote]

Well you choose the reason that paints Rafa in a bad light, others choose to consider other possibilities. There IS more than one side to this debate.

 

[Jürgen4PM]

*Genuine question*

Did we sell Babbel or did he retire?

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Spionkop69 link=topic=39968.msg1094229#msg1094229 date=1272393122]
[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39968.msg1094228#msg1094228 date=1272392722]
[quote author=Asbo link=topic=39968.msg1094225#msg1094225 date=1272392407]
Bellemy going berzerk with a golf club was the reason he went?
[/quote]No it isn't. It MAY be the reason Rafa decided to sell him. It ISNT the reason he went. The reason he went is that Rafa sold him.
[/quote]

Well you choose the reason that paints Rafa in a bad light, others choose to consider other possibilities. There IS more than one side to this debate.

[/quote]I didn't. I said 'may be' I don't really think that's in any way me choosing.

 

[Le Chacal]

Good post Andy.
As I often said, IMO the real end of Rafa's reign was the CL final in 2007.

 

[spider-Neil]

that was a good post oncy but

a) what about the good players that simply wanted out
xabi
garcia

b) what about the players who weren't not content to be squad players
arbeloa
sami
didi
pongolle
crouch
momo

b) the players that 'may' have had a disruptive influence on the dressing room
bellemy

c) the players in decline
henchoz
riise (I don't give a shit what anyone says he was fucking WANK in his final season here)

I do agree with a hell of a lot you posted though and I remember being very pissed off when we went for morientes when we could have had anelka who would have jumped at the chance and went for kuyt and pennent rather than alves with crouch already on the books.

having said that a lot of the above is posted with 20/20 hindsight

 

[peterhague]

i'll always maintain that he generally did well in the market until robbie keane.

hammering him for swapping bellamy for babel is a bit harsh imo - i agree it's not worked out, but it looked a sound decision at the time. the real problem with buys like babel & lucas wasn't making them in the first place but in keeping them so long against all the evidence, which runs contrary to the quality (and it is a good thing) he's often praised for.

 

[Shadey]

Great post and it again proves he's squanded millions on she-ite..

 

[FoxForceFive]

Wow. Fanstastically good post.

I so couldnt have been arsed, but well done. That should put the argument to bed. It wont, but it should.

 

[ILD]

I might use it as a reference point in future. Nice detailed analysis.
I do agree with Neil about how certain players wanted to leave, ie Crouch, Arbeloa, Alonso etc

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=39968.msg1094303#msg1094303 date=1272397858]
Wow. Fanstastically good post.

I so couldnt have been arsed, but well done. That should put the argument to bed. It wont, but it should.
[/quote]

go down the list of all the players good and bad and pick out all the good players, of the good players no longer at the club pick out all the players who left in search of first team football not content to sit on the bench, and also pick out all the players who simply wanted a new challenge. its a lot.
then there are the players many considered rubbish and where more than happy to see leave, for example cisse.
the post is made with hindsight comparing what we had even if they were in decline when they were shipped out (riise, finann) and comparing them to what we have now insua. I agree that rafa ships out players too quickly but a lot of the time the players AT THE TIME weren't good enough or simply weren't satisfied sitting on the bench.

of all the players shipped out who is prospering now? warnock (maybe) riise (was rubbish when shipped out) bellemy, xabi (wanted out) arbeloa (wanted out) sami (wanted out)
there are other who left in search of first team football and laughably find themselves on someone elses bench (crouch).

having said that though I did/do think oncey's post is a good one

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39968.msg1094310#msg1094310 date=1272398599]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=39968.msg1094303#msg1094303 date=1272397858]
Wow. Fanstastically good post.

I so couldnt have been arsed, but well done. That should put the argument to bed. It wont, but it should.
[/quote]

go down the list of all the players good and bad and pick out all the good players, of the good players no longer at the club pick out all the players who left in search of first team football not content to sit on the bench, and also pick out all the players who simply wanted a new challenge. its a lot.
then there are the players many considered rubbish and where more than happy to see leave, for example cisse.
the post is made with hindsight comparing what we had even if they were in decline when they were shipped out (riise, finann) and comparing them to what we have now insua. I agree that rafa ships out players too quickly but a lot of the time the players AT THE TIME weren't good enough or simply weren't satisfied sitting on the bench.

of all the players shipped out who is prospering now? warnock (maybe) riise (was rubbish when shipped out) bellemy, xabi (wanted out) arbeloa (wanted out) sami (wanted out)
there are other who left in search of first team football and laughably find themselves on someone elses bench (crouch).

having said that though I did/do think oncey's post is a good one
[/quote]WHY did Alonso want to leave? WHY did Crouch want to leave?
Of course it's with hindsight I write this Spider, it's IN THE FUCKING PAST!! How could I have known that eg Dossena would be shite compared to the player he replaced at twice the price being as I had never fucking heard of him?
How could I have known that the striker Rafa payed 18m to replace Crouch and Bellamy with would never get a game?
How could I know in the past quite how badly Rafa would fuck up the first team squad and with that our chances.
That said I was saying 3 fucking years ago sign ONE or TWO top players and keep the squaddies we've already got. You can probably look that up.

 

[FoxForceFive]

"Of course it's with hindsight I write this Spider, it's IN THE FUCKING PAST!!"

Hahahaha. This made me laugh lots.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Herr Onceared link=topic=39968.msg1094319#msg1094319 date=1272399034]
[quote author=spider-neil link=topic=39968.msg1094310#msg1094310 date=1272398599]
[quote author=FoxForceFive link=topic=39968.msg1094303#msg1094303 date=1272397858]
Wow. Fanstastically good post.

I so couldnt have been arsed, but well done. That should put the argument to bed. It wont, but it should.
[/quote]

go down the list of all the players good and bad and pick out all the good players, of the good players no longer at the club pick out all the players who left in search of first team football not content to sit on the bench, and also pick out all the players who simply wanted a new challenge. its a lot.
then there are the players many considered rubbish and where more than happy to see leave, for example cisse.
the post is made with hindsight comparing what we had even if they were in decline when they were shipped out (riise, finann) and comparing them to what we have now insua. I agree that rafa ships out players too quickly but a lot of the time the players AT THE TIME weren't good enough or simply weren't satisfied sitting on the bench.

of all the players shipped out who is prospering now? warnock (maybe) riise (was rubbish when shipped out) bellemy, xabi (wanted out) arbeloa (wanted out) sami (wanted out)
there are other who left in search of first team football and laughably find themselves on someone elses bench (crouch).

having said that though I did/do think oncey's post is a good one
[/quote]WHY did Alonso want to leave? WHY did Crouch want to leave?
Of course it's with hindsight I write this Spider, it's IN THE FUCKING PAST!! How could I have known that eg Dossena would be shite compared to the player he replaced at twice the price being as I had never fucking heard of him?
How could I have known that the striker Rafa payed 18m to replace Crouch and Bellamy with would never get a game?
How could I know in the past quite how badly Rafa would fuck up the first team squad and with that our chances.
That said I was saying 3 fucking years ago sign ONE or TWO top players and keep the squaddies we've already got. You can probably look that up.
[/quote]

a lot of what you said you'll get no arguement from me. with no hindsight things that pissed me off AT THE TIME

a) going for the has been morientes
I KNEW he would struggle here. I along with many others wanted rafa to go for anelka.
he then compounded the shit buy by shifting baros out wide who at the time was in 'relative' good form.

b) buying pennant and kuyt rather than alves
anyone with fucking eyes could see alves was world class and whilst I knew nothing about kuyt all I had seen of him suggested he was nothing more than 'tidy' and the less said about pennant the better and his 'floater' crosses

c) 20m on keane
I've never rated keane but anyway that's by the by the reason I thought it was a daft signing was gerrard and torres were scoring for fun so where the fuck did keane fit? I badly wanted to take that 20m and spend on a quality winger.

thoses are the signings I had a problem with without the benefit of hindsight the other sales I didn't agree with were pretty much forced on him (alonso, arbeloa, sami) there were players I would have liked to stay but can understand why they left (bellemy, pongolle) and there are other signings that would obviously make us stronger now but at the time I was glad to see the back of (riise)

 

[Squiggles]

Well done Oncy. The only key criticism the post lacks is what Spidey eludes to, and that is that Rafa could not keep solid squad players like Crouch, Sissoko, Riise, etc happy. His squad management was poor, choosing to freeze decent pros out. Rafa hinted recently that Crouch left for the wage. He didn't, if left for games and was right to do so. Also giving up on Alonso has proved a catastrophic mistake, and failing to replace him even more so.

 

[spider-Neil]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39968.msg1094345#msg1094345 date=1272400007]
Well done Oncy. The only key criticism the post lacks is what Spidey eludes to, and that is that Rafa could not keep solid squad players like Crouch, Sissoko, Riise, etc happy. His squad management was poor, choosing to freeze decent pros out. Rafa hinted recently that Crouch left for the wage. He didn't, if left for games and was right to do so. Also giving up on Alonso has proved a catastrophic mistake, and failing to replace him even more so.
[/quote]

how does fergie keep his squad players happy? is it purely because they win stuff?

 

[SaintGeorge67]

Spider - he tried to get Alves and we wouldn't cough up the money

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=Squiggles link=topic=39968.msg1094345#msg1094345 date=1272400007]
Well done Oncy. The only key criticism the post lacks is what Spidey eludes to, and that is that Rafa could not keep solid squad players like Crouch, Sissoko, Riise, etc happy. His squad management was poor, choosing to freeze decent pros out. Rafa hinted recently that Crouch left for the wage. He didn't, if left for games and was right to do so. Also giving up on Alonso has proved a catastrophic mistake, and failing to replace him even more so.
[/quote]I left that detail out because I refuse to accept that a manager who manages his squad properly would have players requesting to leave.
Crouch, Alonso and Arbeloa asking to leave is no fucking excuse as a manager for allowing the situation to arise that they would want to.
If once in a blue moon a player just simply wants a new challenge then fine, but Crouch (eg) didn't he felt fucked off and undervalued and rightly so. Same with most of them. Yes they wanted to leave, but why do our Crouches, Arbeloas and Riises want to leave and not Manchesters Parks, Fletchers and O'sheas. Rafas overarcing responsibility for transfers is the buck stopping point of this whole thread.

 

[SaintGeorge67]

Crouch wanted to play though and we only play one up front.

Without turning it into a debate on formations, he was never gonna play as much as he wanted to.

 

[Oncy]

[quote author=SaintGeorge67 link=topic=39968.msg1094356#msg1094356 date=1272400591]
Crouch wanted to play though and we only play one up front.

Without turning it into a debate on formations, he was never gonna play as much as he wanted to.
[/quote]He was overlooked on more than one occassion for Voronin. On one occassion even being played wide right.
That's why he requested he leave.

 

[SaintGeorge67]

Fair point

 

[HC]

I'll never forget the match against the Gooners where Crouch and Voronin both started out wide.